Bob: The mistake of bloat v real value increases
Hi Bob, in another thread you said:
"I don't want to become bloatware. Unfortunately that's a tendency as things mature, for two reasons: 1) As a general tool matures, it goes into more niches both to respond to users...
2) Somewhere along the way most users have their basic needs met, but still want fresh updates, free tech support, etc. ... Companies add bloat to increase (for some people) the value perception, ... [etc]"
I think this is severely mistaken. I know you're the CEO of a software company while I'm just a little old consumer. But maybe the CEO sometimes forgets what its like to be a consumer.
(And we know that even CEO's make mistakes - You've admitted that Logos Now was a mistake, I'm sure you're tempted to think it was a mistake to promise people that the software would always be free, setting up a situation where ongoing costs to you are not met by ongoing payments by the consumers.)
It is a little bit scary for me to hear you say that bloat is somewhat inevitable and that you need to do it to increase value perception, because it seems so far from what people actually value in their software.
Do you know what I look for in software? It's this: it works and does the things I need it to do. That is it. When I look at the one that has 500 features and the one that has 5 features, I choose the one that does what I need it to do.
- Evernote is FAR from the most feature-rich cloud-based note service. In many ways it has a poverty of features. But it does a superb job of the few things I need it to do.
- Gmail is far from the most feature rich email provider. But for sending and receiving email, it has exactly the right features to let me do what I want to do.
- I downgraded from one task manager app to another with less features, because the extra features actually got in the way of what I was trying to do
- I have no idea if Microsoft Office has more or less features than other office apps. It just never entered my mind. The only thing that mattered is that it works really well, and didn't make me tear my hair out like other ones did. It was polished, so I used it. It did what I needed it to do.
In fact if you look at the market leader in every software category, I put it to you that you will find in EVERY category an app that is not, on paper, the one with the most 'value perception' (most features). And yet people flock to it because its just the one that does the job best.
Good businesses do the things that people want, and they do them well. And if they do a really good job of that, people will buy it. Because people will talk about it. I have convinced dozens of people to buy Logos over Accompetitor because I am convinced it does what I need and they need best. And do you know how many times the number of features has even been a factor in that discussion? 0. Zero times. The empty tomb interactive is not even relevant. They have 3 or 4 things they need to do as Bible College students and future pastors, and Logos does those things better than the competition. That is the end of the story.
Initially I didn't buy Logos because it was slower than Accompetitor. But then the reading experience was better on Logos, and the Guides were helpful. Then Logos got faster and I made the switch to Logos. Do you know how many features factored in that decision? About 5. I'm not saying features are irrelevant. I'm saying the right features are decisive and the number of features is irrelevant.
In other words I am saying that you are 100% wrong when you say this:
"long-time customers want more books, want more attention on software development that while important, attracts fewer new customers (new customers notice new features; experienced customers want more performance and polishing), and less other stuff"
What's wrong with that statement? It misunderstands new customers. New customers don't notice new features at all, because the customer is new... they don't really know what's new and what's old! They just care that it does the job they are looking for. And if you look into it, probably what you will find is that the number 1 thing that attracts new customers is satisfied long-time customers. If you polish the software so that it does its core tasks better than anyone else, people will buy it.
Actually, it's scary that you think 'increased value perception' is a worthy goal. (How much does this explain the outcry on Logos forums every time that inflated 'value perception' is not reached?)
Value perception that is not backed up by true value (aka bloat) is a recipe for dissatisfaction down the track.
Value perception that is accurate to true value will spread by word of mouth.
Bloat is not true value. A classic example is the empty tomb interactive compared with the features many people have been asking for on Uservoice for years. 1000 votes for better interaction with Evernote, or 630 votes for better offline lookups on mobile apps. I know several people who have chosen to spend their $X000 with Accompetitor because of the better offline lookups on mobile apps. But wait, they miss out on the empty tomb interactive!?! To think that would influence their decision is laughable. But Faithlife spent development dollars on it because it increases 'value perception'.
Yes I know that these things don't look as glossy on marketing copy ('value perception'), but they are what the users are saying will make their software more useful ('true value'), and by so doing they will be more likely to tell others to use the product.
Give people software that works really well - faster, easier, more efficient. Some of your features truly are brilliant ('true value') and I commend you on those innovations. But any time you are doing things simply for the sake of having a new thing to offer, that useless bloat will not help you sell products and won't make our lives any better.
Comments
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It’s okay to say Accordance
Keith Pang, PhD Check out my blog @ https://keithkpang.wixsite.com/magnifyingjesus
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Andrew116 said:
Give people software that works really well - faster, easier, more efficient. Some of your features truly are brilliant ('true value') and I commend you on those innovations. But any time you are doing things simply for the sake of having a new thing to offer, that useless bloat will not help you sell products and won't make our lives any better.
A serious question - given the broad range of users, how would you suggest Logos identify (a) the features users need but do not have, (b) the features present but with flaws that make them unusable to users, (c) the features that are present but users don't know how to use, and (d) useless bloat?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Well said Andrew.
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I would say that they have a pretty good resource here in the forum and on uservoice. That’s probably a good place to start with your category (a) and (b)
Remember that (as you probably know better than anyone) the forum attracts both seasoned veterans and bewhildered newbies. That’s probably a good place to find which features are there but people don’t know how to use them.
I would define useless bloat as anything that,
1. first of all, being prioritised above categories (a) and (b) unless the company is very sure (being honest with itself) that it’s doing it to genuinely enhance user experience in a bigger way than (a) or (b).
2. Is being done mainly so it can be marketted.
I once asked a successful business man for financial advice. He said one thing. “Be honest with yourself.“ I was disappointesd, it didn’t seem like financial advice at all. But over the years I have come to see the wisdom in it. can I afford this? Be honest with yourself. Am I doing this for the right reasons? Be honest with yourself. I suspect that a similar principle applies in companies. Is this just feature for the sake of marketing? Be honest with yourself.
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Well said
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Well said. My most used app on iOS is a markdown note taker called Draftrs4. It isn't pretty to look at, and it sure isn't Ulysses, and yet, I use it every day. Why? It is fast, efficient, and does what it claims to do well.
The list goes on.
Evernote > Onenote
todoist > OmniFocus
Thunderbird > Outlook
Atom > Sublime
I'm sure the community can think of others
Carpe verbum.
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LMAM said:
Well said. My most used app on iOS is a markdown note taker called Draftrs4. It isn't pretty to look at, and it sure isn't Ulysses, and yet, I use it every day. Why? It is fast, efficient, and does what it claims to do well.
The list goes on.
Evernote > Onenote
todoist > OmniFocus
Thunderbird > Outlook
Atom > Sublime
I'm sure the community can think of others
All of these would be bloat, for me. Logos is a secondary app, my primary already handles this functionality. Just illustrating.
But MJ's point is good. A lot of features Logos introduces plug into separate markets, and thus appear useless, outside those markets. From what I can surmise, there's 3 .... academic, pastor, and church members. And at this point, they're still fragmented (compete with each other).
I don't think the issue is bloat, as much as ease of use (the spreadsheet example) and snappy (vs competitors).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ. Smith said:
A serious question - given the broad range of users, how would you suggest Logos identify (a) the features users need but do not have, (b) the features present but with flaws that make them unusable to users, (c) the features that are present but users don't know how to use, and (d) useless bloat?
It seems to me if FL is having trouble identifying these things and is just guessing, they better make some changes in a hurry.
Perhaps FL has lost touch with its user base and relies on statistics rather than interaction with its users.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Mark Smith said:
Perhaps FL has lost touch with its user base and relies on statistics rather than interaction with its users.
I would agree with the latter but I am unsure of the former. I am not sure upon what statistics these decisions could be based. They don't appear to be based on their actual users.
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Mark Smith said:
Perhaps FL has lost touch with its user base and relies on statistics rather than interaction with its users.
Ironically, I opened my hugely favorite weather app this AM, only to see adverts. Huh?? I had a subscription .... gone.
I evaluated my specific enjoyment vs adverts. And deleted the app. But I suspect WU has done their homework .... loose some (or lose, as the case may be), gain revenue.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Andrew, this is an excellent analysis.
I've said a few places in this forum... I kind of wish Bob would sell the Bible Software part of FL to someone interested in Bible Software... then, they would have all the money they need to explore all of these other inroads into other industries...
It appears there is a confusion of exactly what market industry FL is trying to position themselves.
It's kind of like the Swiss army knife that has all of these 'tools' - none of them are awesome, but they are all in one -- the problem, it's too big to carry in your pocket... so it sits on top of your dresser, or in your toolbox and there is never actually a 'need' to use it.
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Mark Smith said:MJ. Smith said:
A serious question - given the broad range of users, how would you suggest Logos identify (a) the features users need but do not have, (b) the features present but with flaws that make them unusable to users, (c) the features that are present but users don't know how to use, and (d) useless bloat?
It seems to me if FL is having trouble identifying these things and is just guessing, they better make some changes in a hurry.
Perhaps FL has lost touch with its user base and relies on statistics rather than interaction with its users.
its really simple... PAY ten of you who are at different levels of experience to fly back to Faithlife and simply ask them. Then Drill them.... then show them what they don't know and see if it solves their problems. Mostly, just listen ... put a week aside and have no more than 5 people on behalf of the company listen.... then decide.
Also, realize that the market is a bunch of relatively simple minded Bible oriented Christians who look to Faithlife almost as a ministry and (based on these hundreds of posts) most certainly do) and, as a direct result of this both: 1) expect candor and transparency; and, 2) are willing to pay more and at the same time forgive... to a point. Christians, once crossed, don't forget and don't forgive very easily. They are a stubborn bunch at best.
Mostly, don't appear to cheat them in a simple manner (if it doesn't fit you must acquit) or just as simple (why charge me more than double to rent books I already bought with money I would have loved to spend on my wife and justify this with a bunch of garbage I don't want and won't even spend time on)....then belittling them by communicating this with the finesse of an ax murderer without the involvement of the person who runs the company and benefits from the overreaching. This insults regular simple people...
By the way, this is my last pile on. Bob will run the company as he sees fit and I am honestly praying that he has wisdom and that you guys and gals lighten up now that over 250 key customers have torn him to bits. I believe you are right (also about focusing the business on what Bob knows and not trying to be all things to all people); but, holy cow, if he didn't already hear it he is deaf... I suspect he is not and has already heard all of us.
So, I am back to my suggestion that we stop complaining (we can all leave) and start praying. I can't wait to enjoy Logos 11 and with our prayers Faithlife will get there.
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Rob Lambert said:
... Christians, once crossed, don't forget and don't forgive very easily. ...
That statement really struck me. I wish I could say that you're wrong. I don't think it's always true, but I suspect it is true of us (me) way more often than it should be.
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Andrew,
Well said.
I'm done with 'keeping up with the Joneses' in terms of Logos.
I was an initial subscriber in Bible Study magazine because I thought it added some value. But I realized that not only was it a lot of fluff, Logos would never make the useful content available within Logos, and I don't need to save hardcopies of sections of another magazine. So after several years, I stopped my autorenew.
I used to be a customer of PC Study Bible. It wasn't all that sophisticated, but it did what I needed it to do--Bible study. In parallel, I added a few Libronix options and when PCSB disappeared for awhile, I switched to Logos.
It's generally a good product, but even years ago, it was bloatware, with an abundance of low-value, little used resources in each package. And the memory and CPU time required to run the program has been terrible for a long time.
I upgraded into Logos 5, then 6, then the basic 7. I subscribed to Logos Now thinking it was a good 'deal' even when recognizing that any company that switches to an SAS model (software as a service) is not working in the best interests of customers. When LN came along, the alarm klaxon began sounding, but I even rationalized this with a view that I'd get the most up to date features.
Now comes whatever this new program is. And the value is negative to me.
Faithlife TV? No interest. Poor quality. I'll never use it. I'd certainly never pay for it. It's like having 7 channels of CSPAN for 'free.'
Mobile Ed? Interesting idea, but 1 course that I rent for a few months? Extortion.
Free books? Generally material I wouldn't buy anyway.
All the while, my CPU cranks through the cycles and my fans work overtime to cool.
Logos has lost it's core focus and core competency. Like many companies, it's expanded into a lot of areas where it has no competitive advantage. Worse, it's offering products that it's customers don't need and aren't asking for.
So I'm done trying to keep up with the latest from Logos. I won't renew into this Faithlife Connect. I'll run what have. Buy a book here and there that adds value. Keep restarting after it crashes. And keep an eye out for other options.
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Lee Ahlstrom said:Andrew,
Well said.
I'm done with 'keeping up with the Joneses' in terms of Logos.
I was an initial subscriber in Bible Study magazine because I thought it added some value. But I realized that not only was it a lot of fluff, Logos would never make the useful content available within Logos, and I don't need to save hardcopies of sections of another magazine. So after several years, I stopped my autorenew.
I used to be a customer of PC Study Bible. It wasn't all that sophisticated, but it did what I needed it to do--Bible study. In parallel, I added a few Libronix options and when PCSB disappeared for awhile, I switched to Logos.
It's generally a good product, but even years ago, it was bloatware, with an abundance of low-value, little used resources in each package. And the memory and CPU time required to run the program has been terrible for a long time.
I upgraded into Logos 5, then 6, then the basic 7. I subscribed to Logos Now thinking it was a good 'deal' even when recognizing that any company that switches to an SAS model (software as a service) is not working in the best interests of customers. When LN came along, the alarm klaxon began sounding, but I even rationalized this with a view that I'd get the most up to date features.
Now comes whatever this new program is. And the value is negative to me.
Faithlife TV? No interest. Poor quality. I'll never use it. I'd certainly never pay for it. It's like having 7 channels of CSPAN for 'free.'
Mobile Ed? Interesting idea, but 1 course that I rent for a few months? Extortion.
Free books? Generally material I wouldn't buy anyway.
All the while, my CPU cranks through the cycles and my fans work overtime to cool.
Logos has lost it's core focus and core competency. Like many companies, it's expanded into a lot of areas where it has no competitive advantage. Worse, it's offering products that it's customers don't need and aren't asking for.
So I'm done trying to keep up with the latest from Logos. I won't renew into this Faithlife Connect. I'll run what have. Buy a book here and there that adds value. Keep restarting after it crashes. And keep an eye out for other options.
[Y]
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Lee Ahlstrom said:Andrew,
Well said.
I'm done with 'keeping up with the Joneses' in terms of Logos.
I was an initial subscriber in Bible Study magazine because I thought it added some value. But I realized that not only was it a lot of fluff, Logos would never make the useful content available within Logos, and I don't need to save hardcopies of sections of another magazine. So after several years, I stopped my autorenew.
I used to be a customer of PC Study Bible. It wasn't all that sophisticated, but it did what I needed it to do--Bible study. In parallel, I added a few Libronix options and when PCSB disappeared for awhile, I switched to Logos.
It's generally a good product, but even years ago, it was bloatware, with an abundance of low-value, little used resources in each package. And the memory and CPU time required to run the program has been terrible for a long time.
I upgraded into Logos 5, then 6, then the basic 7. I subscribed to Logos Now thinking it was a good 'deal' even when recognizing that any company that switches to an SAS model (software as a service) is not working in the best interests of customers. When LN came along, the alarm klaxon began sounding, but I even rationalized this with a view that I'd get the most up to date features.
Now comes whatever this new program is. And the value is negative to me.
Faithlife TV? No interest. Poor quality. I'll never use it. I'd certainly never pay for it. It's like having 7 channels of CSPAN for 'free.'
Mobile Ed? Interesting idea, but 1 course that I rent for a few months? Extortion.
Free books? Generally material I wouldn't buy anyway.
All the while, my CPU cranks through the cycles and my fans work overtime to cool.
Logos has lost it's core focus and core competency. Like many companies, it's expanded into a lot of areas where it has no competitive advantage. Worse, it's offering products that it's customers don't need and aren't asking for.
So I'm done trying to keep up with the latest from Logos. I won't renew into this Faithlife Connect. I'll run what have. Buy a book here and there that adds value. Keep restarting after it crashes. And keep an eye out for other options.
[Y]
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Andrew116 said:
I know several people who have chosen to spend their $X000 with Accompetitor because of the better offline lookups on mobile apps. But wait, they miss out on the empty tomb interactive!?! To think that would influence their decision is laughable. But Faithlife spent development dollars on it because it increases 'value perceptio
I have the competitor. Sometimes I wished it had a more elegant reading plan system like Logos. I also think when it comes to just having a huge reference library of books to search Logos is king. The guides in Logos are second to none as well.
But if it is pure focused Bible study, the competitor is superior in many ways. Speed and no crashes, ever. It just works. Just a recent example, the competitor released Exegetical Summaries with tagging far superior to the Logos version. We have asked on this forum for many years to enhance the tagging for this series in Logos. Same with other resources and maps. .
The competitor is not perfect but the point is I would have preferred for the Logos ecosystem to be more narrow in favor of refinements, stability and speed on its core business. What about making version 8 the version of focusing on refinements, rather than new features?
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
What about making version 8 the version of focusing on refinements, rather than new features?
Don't forget that through Logos Now we know big pieces of Logos 8 - revision of the notes process, speeding up the search process, speeding up the load process i.e. we know that Faithlife is putting resources into the underlying structure to keep the software viable in the long term. We have also seen several important new features - intersects search operator, sermon editor, morph query document, sermon outlines guide section, Faithlife music guide section, Faithlife Assistant natural language search, and many smaller enhancements.
Donovan R. Palmer said:the competitor released Exegetical Summaries with tagging far superior to the Logos version.
What specific tagging do you find helpful in the competitor? That detailed feedback is what Faithlife needs.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Donovan R. Palmer said:
the competitor released Exegetical Summaries with tagging far superior to the Logos version.
What specific tagging do you find helpful in the competitor? That detailed feedback is what Faithlife needs.
That detailed feedback is what Logos should already know. Yet, it seems that they are behind on most fronts and falling back. Release of new books, procurement of journals, pricing, communication to customer. =
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Little old me...making a suggestion from the ignorant department.
I know part of the area of concern is income, because as mentioned in Bob's thread, many of us have the majority of the resources we need/want, and aren't making the big purchases anymore.
Here's my suggestion.
I have tried introducing this software to my classes over the years. I teach inductive studies to very large classes filled with women who are constantly asking me how I got "all this information." I tell them about it. I even held a very beginner workshop just to show them how to use it for VERY basic Bible study. You know how many ladies in all my years have actually purchased it? Probably 5 (that I know of.) But because packages are expensive and the learning curve is so overwhelming, those who showed a pretty good interest decided against it. They commented that its just easier to do a google search.
Well, my thinking is that regarding Logos, I started very basic, as most of us did (okay, maybe just me.) I started with a basic library--a couple hundred bucks. However, because I'm tenacious, (and help from Mark's unofficial Logos 4 videos), I stuck with figuring it out a bit and finally learned how to use a Bible with a word study dictionary and a concordance and a commentary all on the same screen! [:D] Since then, I've spent more time and money than I care to share, as I've grown my library and learned new features.
I REALLY believe, and I've said this many times before, that until they make it where the lay person with little computer knowledge can figure out how to use the program without having to have a PhD, they will miss out on an entire market of people who are looking for something like this but don't have the time to invest in figuring it out. It's so focused on the pastor and teacher that it fails to market to the lay person.
"And that's what I've got to say about that!"
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
I REALLY believe, and I've said this many times before, that until they make it where the lay person with little computer knowledge can figure out how to use the program without having to have a PhD, they will miss out on an entire market of people who are looking for something like this but don't have the time to invest in figuring it out. It's so focused on the pastor and teacher that it fails to market to the lay person.
"And that's what I've got to say about that!"
Hopefully Faithlife hears and understands what you have written. I completely agree! [Y]
Logos Series X Pastor’s Library | Logos 3 Leader’s Library | 4 Portfolio | 5 Platinum | 6 Feature Crossgrade | 7 Essential | 8 M & W Platinum and Academic Professional | 9 Academic Professional and Messianic Jewish Diamond
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Scott E. Mahle said:
Hopefully Faithlife hears and understands what you have written. I completely agree!
Agree. Especially with the low price point of the FC (or is it FLC?) , the market could really expand if certain components of the program were more apparent.
However, considering the amount of capabilities, I am not entirely sure how to make it simpler without removing functionality. Maybe a way to hide "advanced" functionality so the menus appear simpler...
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Cynthia in Florida said:
I know part of the area of concern is income, because as mentioned in Bob's thread, many of us have the majority of the resources we need/want, and aren't making the big purchases anymore.
You've summed up myself. That's one reason why I never felt the need to jump onto Logos Now. I'm fully vested in Logos, use it daily, but the enthusiasm wore off sometime ago. I do pray for the company's continued vitality. But I have no interest in a subscription model. I want to own my resources and features, period. As for the bloatware, I agree with what many have said here. I'm busy with my own stuff and don't care about the superfluous stuff. I just want well tagged resources and more available books.
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Ted Weis said:
I'm busy with my own stuff and don't care about the superfluous stuff. I just want well tagged resources and more available books.
You have spurred me to reassess my perceived need for the latest feature as soon as it is developed rather than waiting until it is released for full ownership. I agree with the rest of your argument totally and judge that it describes where I reside along the continuum of users. Perhaps Verbum Now isn't the most realistic option for me to exercise. Thanks for your post, Ted.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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Ted Weis said:
You've summed up myself. That's one reason why I never felt the need to jump onto Logos Now. I'm fully vested in Logos, use it daily, but the enthusiasm wore off sometime ago. I do pray for the company's continued vitality. But I have no interest in a subscription model. I want to own my resources and features, period. As for the bloatware, I agree with what many have said here. I'm busy with my own stuff and don't care about the superfluous stuff. I just want well tagged resources and more available books.
+1. I never wanted to go subscription either but felt kind of forced to as it was absolutely the only way I could get the systematic theology tool. (I'm a systematic theologian. I was excited that they finally came out with something for me. I wanted this tool.) At first it grated a little to be forced to subscribe to get what I wanted, but I came to enjoy other aspects and benefits of Now. Disappointment comes from some of those benefits being taken away (not every perk of Now has carried over, not even at the higher tiers), the abruptness of it, and the outrageous* rate of the hike.
At this point I'm trying to think of it simply as a return to the status quo ante--I only buy, I don't rent. I'm less enthusiastic about Logos, pay less attention to its news and development, and consequently spend a lot less.
*Those of you who don't think it's outrageous--name one other service or product that could be hiked 140% overnight that the average person wouldn't consider outrageous.
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FL TV sucks and it’s totally worthless, IMHO. I wouldn’t even take it for free. Mobile Ed I only buy what I need and if it’s cheap. I barely use what little I have anyway. And Logos 8 features with Logos Now were supposed to roll out ever 6 weeks if I’m not mistaken, but it never happened that way either.
So it’s only buy what I need from now on. Sorry Logos, you did this to yourself. Too many greedy projects and spending money FL really didn’t have is my guess of the why these things are happening.
No wonder Accordance is offering a deep discount for those who want to switch. Rumors are spreading and I really don’t want to know about them.
DAL
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Lol at the title of this article on a competitor's website - DAL's post led me there.
[redacted]
It’s a brilliant piece of writing really. Perfectly picks up all the things that frustrate Logos users.
Things we have been saying here on the forums for years without anyone listening.
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Although I've been rather pointed in my criticism of FaithLife over the years, I've always thought it indecorous to bring up their competitors on their own forum.
It's still not something I would do, but since 22 Feb. 2018, I'm rather more indifferent to the practice.
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Andrew116 said:
Andrew, it is not ethical during hard time which Faithlife goes through, to come here and push competitor. It’s against the guidelines, ethics, and Christian morals. You should really be ashamed of yourself.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Andrew116 said:
Lol at the title of this article
https://www.accordancebible.com/Accordance-Lifeboat
It’s a brilliant piece of writing really. Perfectly picks up all the things that frustrate Logos users.
Things we have been saying here on the forums for years without anyone listening.
The rumors are growing and trust me, the life boat is no coincidence nor everything mentioned in the article. I literally make my coffee and have my toast before I can actually start doing something. It doesn’t happen all the time, but it’s happened one too many times, unfortunately!
DAL
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Wild Eagle said:Andrew116 said:
Lol at the title of this article
......
It’s a brilliant piece of writing really. Perfectly picks up all the things that frustrate Logos users.
Things we have been saying here on the forums for years without anyone listening.
Andrew, it is not ethical during hard time which Faithlife goes through, to come here and push competitor. It’s against the guidelines, ethics, and Christian morals. You should really be ashamed of yourself.
Wild Eagle, unfortunately, you’re the one who’s being unethical by admitting to something not even Faithlife has admitted! You’re saying FL is going through hard time and that’s gossip right there pal. Bob himself has stated in the past that FL is doing well and that there’s no need to worry about FL going bankrupt or selling. So unless you know something we don’t know, then I suggest you stop spreading the gossip that FL is indeed going through hard time, because according to Bob they are not.
I’ve heard rumors, but you don’t see me spreading any specific ones, because they’re just rumors.
DAL
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I think, if I could start over, I‘d do what I did. Even Molassas4 on a netbook, believe it or not.
Faithlife frustrates me, but I’d bet it’s cultural. I remember them saying you had to run with the big dogs. Arf, arf!
I was called a jackass for criticizing unfair use of the forum. Everyone knows it should have been a jenny.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Dal, if you miss understood me, then maybe it’s wiser to clarify instead of just bashing it out. To say “hard time” I didn’t mean financially. Looking at these forum posts and see so many users complaining, of course is not an easy time for Faithlife. So stop gossiping yourself and defend the ones who are promoting here other competitors. I don’t see logos users going there and advertising logos like accordance users
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Denise said:
I think, if I could start over, I‘d do what I did. Even Molassas4 on a netbook, believe it or not.
Faithlife frustrates me, but I’d bet it’s cultural. I remember them saying you had to run with the big dogs. Arf, arf!
I was called a jackass for criticizing unfair use of the forum. Everyone knows it should have been a jenny.
Sad to admit this, but if I could start over I’d keep e-sword and WS and get my money back. But...learn and live!
DAL
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I have 95% of my $$ invested in Logos and do 95% of my work there too. I have every interest in seeing it succeed, in fact that is why I started this thread. You will notice that in the first post of this thread I did not even name the competitor. Another commenter told me it was ok to.
But I'm not pushing the competitor, in fact last week I wrote a blog for the younger students at my Bible college that convinced a large proportion to buy Logos instead of Accordance.
In this thread and in sharing that link, my only goal is to (hopefully) help FL see what is required to continue to push Logos forwards. I believe Logos is the best in the business and I want to see it succeed. But if they are in trouble, which no one except you is saying, it is 100% of their own making and facing up to the facts about how they got here and what is required to turn it around can only be a good thing.
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Andrew116 said:
But I'm not pushing the competitor,
Andrew, actions speak louder than the words. You posted a link to a competitor where it gives discounts to the ones who switch the programs and saying that you are not pushing? 🤔
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Yes, that's what I'm saying. Where is the blog post you have written and shared with college students promoting Logos?
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Andrew, Your first post was indeed constructive criticism, where you gave good points which Faithlife should consider. But, you crossed the line when you gave the link of promotion
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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I have edited the post. But FL employees would do well to read the recent blogs of competitors and try to identify why it is that they market themselves that way vis a vis Logos. They are picking up on real things which, if attention were given to them, would make a difference. They are things people have been saying on the forums for a long time now too.
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I’ll sit this one out 👍😁👌
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I'm not writing any of these things to throw stones. Its because I care about Logos. It's because I love it. It's because it makes my life better.
"One day Jobs came into the cubicle of Larry Kenyon, an engineer who was working on the Macintosh operating system, and complained that it was taking too long to boot up. Kenyon started to explain, but Jobs cut him off. “If it could save a person’s life, would you find a way to shave ten seconds off the boot time?” he asked. Kenyon allowed that he probably could. Jobs went to a whiteboard and showed that if there were five million people using the Mac, and it took ten seconds extra to turn it on every day, that added up to three hundred million or so hours per year that people would save, which was the equivalent of at least one hundred lifetimes saved per year. “Larry was suitably impressed, and a few weeks later he came back and it booted up twenty-eight seconds faster,” Atkinson recalled. “Steve had a way of motivating by looking at the bigger picture.”
(Walter Isaacson, Steve Jobs, 123)
I'm not saying that Logos should run like Apple - Steve Jobs sounds like a tyrant at times. But he knew that little things like start up times make a difference to people's lives, and he helped people find a way to improve them.
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Ted Weis said:
I just want well tagged resources and more available books.
That's it! That's what we want!
In the very early years (back in the early 90s), there were a couple of possibilities that I could have gone with as far as Bible study software, but I went with Libronix (actually CD Word) because you would be able to develop a library over the years and that is what I have done. THAT is ALL that I want. I don't want Proclaim, I don't want Faithlife TV, I don't want any of that. I just want the Bible software to work and to be able to keep adding resources to it. I do want the latest books/research. I do want the latest journals. So if Faithlife would start delivering those things in a more reasonable timeframe, then more Bible teachers and students would purchase them, BUT not for an arm and a leg! I remember when resources were relatively inexpensive, so people could buy more then. The prices just have increased so much that it makes it more difficult to buy.
So I don't buy as many resources as I would like and that is due to the cost. Nowadays when I am purchasing a book, I am also paying the salary of those working on Proclaim, Faithlife TV, etc. I can't afford that nor do I want to do that.
And I don't need all the bells and whistles for more "new things" concerning the software. Don't make it more complicated or even less people will buy it.
Plus deliver on past promises. In Logos 4 you came out with a great set of maps. Then in Logos 6 a major selling point was the Atlas and that was the ONLY reason that I went with that upgrade. BUT that was poorly done and undeveloped and I was sorely disappointed and it is even now harder to find the maps that are decent.
Throughout my sports life one thing that my winning coach said that always rang true, even in life. "Stick with the basics." That won us numerous state championships and enabled me to become a scholarship athlete. That is what LOGOS needs to do, is go back to the basics. Go back to what made you great and different from the other companies and stay true to that. Do that well and the income will come in.
I appreciate Logos and I use the software daily in preparation for my teaching, as well as working on my doctorate in Bible studies and history. But since Logos 4, I personally believe that the focus has not been the same and thus the company has stretched itself into so many areas (need I mention "dating"!), and thus the attention has not been on just the Bible software. Please go back to that. I don't want to lose my investment of thousands and thousands of dollars that I have spent with this company. I don't want to have to buy another Bible software program, but if things continue as is, then that decision is coming closer and closer. I am trying to hold that off as long as I can, but if Faithlife cannot go back to "being Logos," with the focus on the Bible software, then that decision will have to be made, as painful as it will be.
Please, Bob, put the focus back on what made Logos great.
Thank you.
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In my opinion, and as I expressed it already long ago, Faithlife is trying to do too much and it undermines its ability to focus on doing what it does better. It is actually bewildering to consider the number of directions in which Faithlife has gone now (logos books, vyrso ebooks, noet, mobileEd, Faithlife TV, Proclaim, church traditions, LN, Cloud, Connect, languages, etc, etc, etc).
I am not sure whether this is the result of good intentions or felt as a necessity from a business standpoint (or a mix of both). I don't know how FL is actually doing as a business. I just hope it will not implode.
There have been missed experiments (Noet and LN being the most resounding ones) and those undermine customer confidence. I think it likely that the confidence of many LN subscribers has been shaken up by the recent change to Connect. FL needs to be careful with that or indeed will lose business to competitors. The "lifeboat" analogy does convey the sense of safety over against a leaky vessel.
This being said, it is worth also bringing into the conversation the things that FL does that are commendable practices and that we would do well not to take for granted.
- One is the commitment to continued free updates of program core and resources. I know of one competitor I had purchased a number of years ago: I don't get a free "core" update to the new version when they have one. Some competitors do however.
- Quality free books. I do not mean here the LN offerings which, from what I have seen, are frequently not high quality (public domain stuff mostly), but the freebies of the month.
- Recently I picked up the last 9 volumes of Tyndale commentaries (all published after 2011) for a whooping price of $21! So dynamic and academic pricing also frequently result in great deals. Good luck buying these books in print for that price. I do find that there are fairly regularly impressive discounts despite the fact that users are always asking for more and price-matching. This does not negate the fact that some resources are incredibly high-priced.
I agree somewhat with the idea that strong availability of books is an important aspect of the value of logos although I do find that user suggestions that would have every book one likes available in Logos excessive. The CP program has suffered some. Nevertheless, I must say that once I was looking at a competitor and despite the high reputation of its features, I turned away because their offerings were comparatively few, more expensive, and their upgrades rare. The availability of resources is important and an ongoing need for a good number of users (especially in academics) but again, running after too many rabbits at a time causes problems.
I think that Faithlife and other leading Bible software that are serious about Bible software development have already impacted the history of biblical scholarship and need to keep in mind the value of continuing to further that history and pioneering the capacity to do high level software-based research. What we can do now compared to previous generations is mind boggling and I have to remind myself when I critique scholars even from the 1980's that they could not do searches of the kind we can now. In my opinion, the long view would make this aspect of the software's development the most critical and significant. This is where the ongoing development and refining of tools remains important although even there too much scattering becomes counter-productive and affects the quality of what is released negatively. But it remains that Bible software still has largely the ability to go "where no one has gone before" as long as it represents real research needs and not just fancy but remotely useful features.
The other aspect of Faithlife that I have only been able to moderately take advantage of (for lack of funds) is MobileEd. We must not underestimate the incredible value of what Faithlife has developed there and is offering. I agree with what one user said that some subscriptions models are largely useless when it comes to MobileEd (or too random to be dependable value). But on the other hand, deeply discounted courses or some better subscription models actually provide remarkable value. To think that users around the world can access such degree of education from home (if they can afford it, which I know is not a given) is again a significant development historically (think what your biblical education options would have been in the 17th century or even last one!).
I am not saying this to "come to the rescue" of Faithlife and undermine the concerns that have been voiced in this thread. I mean this more as input on what I think Faithlife has done better or can do better. I also invite the conversation among ourselves as users to go beyond what each of us wants/prefers to a longer view of what is most valuable overall for the study of the Scriptures and to empower ministry.
The question that remains is how can the course be adjusted? Every initiative has had its fan base and changes necessarily brings discontent (e.g., LN to Connect). I think for my part that I would be more willing to accept even far-ranging changes if it communicated confidence that FL has clarified its mandate, not just in general terms, but in a way that points to a solid sense of direction. Obviously such changes should be exceptional not frequent. Provided that proper compensations are provided where there is resulting loss and care is taken to manage transitions well (something I see Faithlife trying to do with Connect) the whole "boat" can find itself consolidated.
Yet as I write this, I do so recognising that I am neither a businessman nor a programmer. I do not claim to have it all figured out.
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Francis said:
This being said, it is worth also bringing into the conversation the things that FL does that are commendable practices and that we would do well not to take for granted.
- One is the commitment to continued free updates of program core and resources. I know of one competitor I had purchased a number of years ago: I don't get a free "core" update to the new version when they have one.
- Quality free books. I do not mean here the LN offerings which, from what I have seen, are frequently not high quality (public domain stuff mostly), but the freebies of the month.
- Recently I picked up the last 9 volumes of Tyndale (all published after 2011) for a whooping price of $21! So dynamic and academic pricing also frequently result in great deal. Good luck to buy these books in print for that price. I do find that there are fairly regularly impressive discounts despite the fact that users are always asking for more and price-matching. This does not negate the fact that some resources are incredibly high-priced.
[Y]
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I suppose younger customers are wanting more features. I do not use most of the features Logos already has. I want the books. I want the tagging. I want the language tools. I want quality commentaries. I do not want the software to do more analysis for me. I like the way that I study the Bible now.
Certainly, I am out of touch. But I do not understand Faithlife's approach. They have customers begging for them to sell certain quality resources (Carta, for example), but Faithlife's attention seems to be on marketing strategies that are mostly unpopular with their customers.
The only way an ole goat of a customer like me is going to make another major purchase is if Logos is selling some books that I do not have, but really want in my Logos library. As of now, that is not the case. (The last such purchase was the Fathers of the Church series.)
I cannot imagine a single new feature that I would give you a dime to have.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
I do not want the software to do more analysis for me. I like the way that I study the Bible now.
[Y]
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Paul C said:
Only cause you don't want butter on your keyboard.DAL said:I’ll sit this one out 👍😁👌
This however, made me spill the butter on my keyboard. I tried to order something from Accordance using their coupon and this was the email response. Now you tell me if this isn’t a reason to be concerned about. If not, why mention Logos specifically by name. Could something be brewing in the background that we users don’t know about? Life saving coupon is too much of a coincidence. Could the Logos ship be sinking and the competition just wants to help save some honest people some money so they won’t throw it in a ship that is sinking? Maybe it’s time to start worrying about something. What exactly? I don’t know, but I wish I knew.
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Ps. So in essence everything they wrote in their blog where they offer the coupon and they describe problems with the Bible study software...They were in reality talking about Logos even though they didn’t mention Logos by name in their blog, but they did so in the email I received...hmmm...
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Looks to me like a very unfortunate and improper slip of the tongue from a company that has prided itself until now on being above the L v A bickering.
I dont see any reason to believe that a competitor knows anything about the true state.
no doubt sensing some disquiet among Logos users they are hoping to capitalise, nothing more.
And if they were as confident of their superiority as they make out, the discounts would not be as deep
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