Let's request Logos 4 Mac to be more Mac like 1) Enhance the app. icon
Hi all
A light-hearted (yet real request) while we play with the Alpha version could be to put forward some ideas to have the developers make Logos 4 Mac more 'Mac like'.
After dragging the application icon onto my dock (for the first time!) I would post the first suggestion to help make Logos 4 Mac more a true Mac app. Jazz up the app. icon! The current one looks so...so... Windows.
Wouldn't it be great to see a nice 3D photorealistic magnifying glass with the cross floating in the middle of it. Screenshot above gives some examples of Mac application icons.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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I guess I'd never thought about it before, but if Logos wants to expand its base of users, perhaps it should remove the cross from the icon. If I were a Jewish Mac user looking for a Jewish package, I think I'd look elsewhere for a program that wasn't trying to be overtly Christian. Just thinking out loud...
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Ben said:
I guess I'd never thought about it before, but if Logos wants to expand its base of users, perhaps it should remove the cross from the icon. If I were a Jewish Mac user looking for a Jewish package, I think I'd look elsewhere for a program that wasn't trying to be overtly Christian. Just thinking out loud...
Last time I looked they would have to remove a lot more than the cross on the icon to appeal to non-christian religions. But then again, a burning bush icon would be really cool.
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Ben said:
I guess I'd never thought about it before, but if Logos wants to expand its base of users, perhaps it should remove the cross from the icon. If I were a Jewish Mac user looking for a Jewish package, I think I'd look elsewhere for a program that wasn't trying to be overtly Christian. Just thinking out loud...
Given that the cross is at the center of what we believe - Philippians 2:8 - that would be difficult to do.
I believe we don't have to apologise for the cross. Also in terms of non-Christians, I feel that it is more important to them is how we (who carry the cross) treat them, rather than the fact that we are showing the cross.
Just my 2c worth.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Is Logos a ministry or a business? If the second, then removing the cross from its icon is in no way "apologizing for the cross" but simply communicating that "our product is meant for the broadest group possible."
It's about branding and appealing to the broadest base possible to sell the product (i.e. books).
I have a similar "branding" issue with the Scholars package, which includes a lot of non-scholarly stuff that turns off scholars because it makes the package seem so non-scholarly. I recently heard one very prominent Hebrew Bible professor speak negatively of Logos to a graduate student on just that very basis.
One could argue (as has been done here before) that "the price for all that other stuff is really quite small" and "it may turn out to be useful" but frankly I and others I know would rather pay $20 less and just not have it.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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May I weigh in on the 'cross or no cross' debate?
I am a devout Christian who believes that too much is made of the cross by the majority of Christians. The important thing is not the cross, but the man who died on it. I would suggest that as L4 is about reading and studying books (yes, I know, Christian books) that the logo should include a book or (preferably) a Bible.
But, hey, I'm not so bothered about the logo ... this software rocks and we're only at Alpha 13a ... I'm excited!
Read FAQ and Guide for Reporting Bugs.
13" Macbook • 2GHz • 2GB RAM • OS 10.6.6 • 160GB Hard Drive
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I have looked at Logos as a business that ministers. I don't think the desire to minister if far from the minds of its owners. Logos is, after all, selling Bible study software with believers as its primary target. Am I wrong? Regarding the offense of the cross, Jesus himself is what makes the cross offensive to those who are offended. He has always been the stumbling stone and rock of offense, and until all his enemies are subdued he will remain so. I think the cross accurately represents what the product is about.
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"I think the cross accurately represents what the product is about."
So... as a Hebrew Bible student, I should go buy Accordance instead? [6]
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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μή γενοιτα!.....oh... wait.....אַל הַיָה![8-|]_
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Hey Brother,
Logos will perform to the same level whether or not one confines themself to the Hebrew Scriptures only, the Greek Scriptures only, or if both are used. Get what you can out of it. For me, if another product met my needs better, I'd buy it instead or in addition, for pragmatic reasons. That's a buyer's decision. I don't use Accordance, so I can't compare the two, but I think if you moved to Accordance you would find yourself in the same situation.
Logos offers a good product from which a broad spectrum of beliefs can derive some benefit, but I don't think it is necessary or desirable for them to conceal the beliefs that motivated them to create the software in the first place, nor to deny their primary target user base. I think it would be unreasonable for a Jewish publishing house to hide the Star of David, or other meaningful Jewish symbols on products simply because a gentile might find cause for offense. But since you indicated previously that you are a scholar, I suspect that you are broad minded enough that you already accept most of this, and you are merely playing devil's advocate as your red smiley face with horns would seem to indicate.
Shalom,
Larry
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So, let's make sure we all understand each other. Are you a Jew who is offended by a cross on a product marketed primarily to Christians? Or are you a Christian who just likes to needle other Christians who don't share your views?Ben said:So... as a Hebrew Bible student, I should go buy Accordance instead?
Once we better understand the purposes of your posts, we can give you a better answer. [:P]
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Keep in mind that Logos has quite a few resources authored by Jews and published by JPS
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Sure, I own many of them and want more, like the JPS Jewish Study Bible. (And I'm clearly playing devil's advocate here, because I think in the long run it will improve the program.)
BUT... say I'm a Mac user, non-Protestant or even Jewish, in grad school for Hebrew Bible, and shopping around for a program. I have no interest in "Bryant’s Sermon Outlines for Evangelistic Services" though that and many similar things are part of the Scholars collection, and I've just heard my big name professor, asked about Logos, shake his head and say "Well, it's not very scholarly, and includes lots of fluff masquerading as scholarship."
I decide to check out Logos anyway and compare it against its main competitor, Accordance. I look at who's endorsing them. Accordance- Abegg, Rainey, Tov leap out, prominent Hebrew Bible scholars all. Logos? http://www.logos.com/endorsements Uh, lots of pastors and ministers.
I compare packages. Accordance really doesn't include anything like "Bryant's Sermon Outlines" in its packages, and has clearly demarcated "Jewish" and "Catholic" packages. Moreover, its icon is not a cross. And it has things like the Jewish Study Bible, Schocken Bible, Babylonian Talmud, Elephantine letters, etc. (In all fairness, Logos also has some relevant resources that Accordance lacks.)
Which one am I going to pick, especially after hearing my professor's opinion? Which program and forums am I going to feel more "at home" in?
My point is simply that Logos is losing business because of its overt Christian/Protestant/Evangelical branding. I've seen it first-hand. It wouldn't take much to modify- change the scholars collection to be more scholarly, change the icon, perhaps some other small things like that. That doesn't do anything to its primary market, and goes a long way towards resolving those problems I've mentioned here, which I've seen first-hand.
Sorry for the massive thread-jack.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Maybe they should market to Islam as well, just think of all the money they could make. Then there is the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and Perl of Great Price, the LDS are a growing market.Ben said:My point is simply that Logos is losing business because of its overt Christian/Protestant/Evangelical branding.
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I really don't think your attitude is in "Accordance" with the "Logos."
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Not a constructive response, Terry. If Mormons and Muslims want to use Logos, they're free to license the engine for their own books. I'm talking about in-the-classroom grad students studying Hebrew Bible, with money to buy a program, and being steered away from Logos packages towards Accordance for the reasons listed above. Should Logos care about their business? Your response says, no.
Edit: I've said my piece, I don't see the need to say any more.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Joe:
Nice to see the Logos icon under your avatar. Congrats again. I too use an icon similar to yours for 1.2 instead of the Libronix Logo
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Ben said:
Sure, I own many of them and want more, like the JPS Jewish Study Bible. (And I'm clearly playing devil's advocate here, because I think in the long run it will improve the program.)
BUT... say I'm a Mac user, non-Protestant or even Jewish, in grad school for Hebrew Bible, and shopping around for a program. I have no interest in "Bryant’s Sermon Outlines for Evangelistic Services" though that and many similar things are part of the Scholars collection, and I've just heard my big name professor, asked about Logos, shake his head and say "Well, it's not very scholarly, and includes lots of fluff masquerading as scholarship."
I decide to check out Logos anyway and compare it against its main competitor, Accordance. I look at who's endorsing them. Accordance- Abegg, Rainey, Tov leap out, prominent Hebrew Bible scholars all. Logos? http://www.logos.com/endorsements Uh, lots of pastors and ministers.
I compare packages. Accordance really doesn't include anything like "Bryant's Sermon Outlines" in its packages, and has clearly demarcated "Jewish" and "Catholic" packages. Moreover, its icon is not a cross. And it has things like the Jewish Study Bible, Schocken Bible, Babylonian Talmud, Elephantine letters, etc. (In all fairness, Logos also has some relevant resources that Accordance lacks.)
Which one am I going to pick, especially after hearing my professor's opinion? Which program and forums am I going to feel more "at home" in?
My point is simply that Logos is losing business because of its overt Christian/Protestant/Evangelical branding. I've seen it first-hand. It wouldn't take much to modify- change the scholars collection to be more scholarly, change the icon, perhaps some other small things like that. That doesn't do anything to its primary market, and goes a long way towards resolving those problems I've mentioned here, which I've seen first-hand.
Sorry for the massive thread-jack.
Perhaps if Logos didn't use a Cross on its logo. Your Jewish self would by Logos under false pretenses and want to complain and sue because it is a Christian Bible Software Program? The title of this thread was about making Logos 4 Mac more Mac Like. People on this forum really enjoy the Mac experience and would like at least the same functionality as the Windows product but would like to see the the appearance and features one comes to expect from a Mac.
If people are clamoring for a more "Mac like" experience I can only imagine the difficulty Logos would have shying away from its clear Christian ties in an attempt to broaden its audience . I think Logos is a company that acts as ministry. If they wanted they could create a product that was specifically for Jewish scholars, one for Muslims and so on.
And truth is if Logos fulfills your study needs and you don't like the icon, change it Like I did. I change the Logos 1 Mac Logo from the Libronix Logo because I wanted the cross.
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You said,
"Which one am I going to pick, especially after hearing my professor's opinion? Which program and forums am I going to feel more "at home" in?
My point is simply that Logos is losing business because of its overt Christian/Protestant/Evangelical branding. I've seen it first-hand. It wouldn't take much to modify- change the scholars collection to be more scholarly, change the icon, perhaps some other small things like that. That doesn't do anything to its primary market, and goes a long way towards resolving those problems I've mentioned here, which I've seen first-hand."
My guess, and my hope is that Logos is not solely about money. Scholarly resources are continually being added. Logos got my business precisely because of what you call overt Christian/Protestant/Evangelical branding. If the icon, by which we mean the cross, by which we mean Jesus, is really a small thing in your view, why mention it at all, especially in a context like this forum where you're bound to get a reaction from people like me who attach significance to "the cross." I wouldn't care if Logos had a smurf for its logo, but it wouldn't make much sense. The cross in its logo makes perfect sense. They changed the logo at least once, and I don't care if they do it again. But I hope they don't do it because it is beneath a certain class of scholars who are "ever learning, but are never able to come to a knowledge of the truth." For me, everything is not about money, it's not about knowledge solely for the sake of knowledge, it's not about how scholarly I am perceived by others; it is about Jesus and what He did for us on the cross. Yes, it's only an icon, but the sub-text of your request makes the issue about more than an icon to an overt C/P/E like myself.
Shalom again, Brother
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Ben said:
BUT... say I'm a Mac user, non-Protestant or even Jewish, in grad school for Hebrew Bible, and shopping around for a program. I have no interest in "Bryant’s Sermon Outlines for Evangelistic Services" though that and many similar things are part of the Scholars collection, and I've just heard my big name professor, asked about Logos, shake his head and say "Well, it's not very scholarly, and includes lots of fluff masquerading as scholarship."
I didn't realize Anchor Yale Bible was evangelical...
Ben said:I compare packages. Accordance really doesn't include anything like "Bryant's Sermon Outlines" in its packages, and has clearly demarcated "Jewish" and "Catholic" packages. Moreover, its icon is not a cross. And it has things like the Jewish Study Bible, Schocken Bible, Babylonian Talmud, Elephantine letters, etc. (In all fairness, Logos also has some relevant resources that Accordance lacks.)
Maybe you say that in some fairness, but definitely not all. Cheap shots on sermon outlines aren't helpful. Logos' customer base is far, far broader than Accordance's and thus they have to market both pastors & scholars. And what's more (surprise, surprise) there are far more pastors in the world than there are Hebrew scholars. At least last time I checked.
Ben said:My point is simply that Logos is losing business because of its overt Christian/Protestant/Evangelical branding. I've seen it first-hand. It wouldn't take much to modify- change the scholars collection to be more scholarly, change the icon, perhaps some other small things like that. That doesn't do anything to its primary market, and goes a long way towards resolving those problems I've mentioned here, which I've seen first-hand.
I doubt it. In fact, Logos is probably gaining far more business than they lose because of their overt Christian/Prostestant/Evangelical branding (minus, of course, Semeia & Anchor & Hermeneia & the Ugaritic collection & all the Continuum volumes). I'll give you that the "scholars" collection is far more of a marketing ploy than anything else, but the fact is that with 10,000 titles available and more and more on the way all the time, your professor's statement:
Ben said:"Well, it's not very scholarly, and includes lots of fluff masquerading as scholarship."
reflects more of his ignorance about Logos than it does on Logos itself. Whether Logos could change his view is another question, particularly since it sounds more like he already made his decision without doing much research at all in developing it to begin with. Can such a person be convinced otherwise? I doubt it.
See also:
Studies in
Hebrew and Aramaic Orthography (Freedman, Forbes & Andersen)
The
Verbless Clause in Biblical Hebrew: Linguistic Approaches (Miller,
et al.)
Linguistics
and Biblical Hebrew (Bodine, Revell & Greenstein)
Linguistic
Analysis of Biblical Hebrew
A Treatise on the Use of the Tenses in Hebrew and other
Other Syntactical Questions (Driver), The Forms of Hebrew
Poetry (Gray), Two Treatises on the Accentuation of the Old
Testament (Wickes) are bundled with a collection of other grammars,
inclusing Nöldeke's Compedious Syriac Grammar and a number of
books covering the Greek of the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew
Bible in the collection Biblical
Languages: Reference Grammars and Introductions (19 volumes).
Word
order Variation in Biblical Hebrew Poetry (gathering interest on
our pre-publication program)
The
BHS Helps Collection, including: A Manual of Hebrew Poetics,
Spelling in the Hebrew Bible and the Massorah Gedolah. Currently
gathering interest on our prepublication program.
The Northwest
Semitic Collection (gathering interest on our pre-publication
program) contains 7 volumes discussing the language family that Biblical
Hebrew belongs in, including 3 treatises on the Book of Job.
Text-Linguistics
and Biblical Hebrew
The
Masorah of Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia
Topics in Hebrew and Semitic Linguistics (Blau), Biblical
Hebrew in its Northwest Semitic Setting (Fassberg and Hurvitz), Biblical
and Oriental Studies (2 volumes, Cassuto) are all part of the Magnes Press
Hebrew Bible Collection (12 volumes) gathering interest in the
pre-publication sale program.
Journal of
Hebrew Scriptures (7 volumes)
Journal
of Northwest Semitic Languages, 1995-2007 (26 issues - gathering
interest in the pre-publication program)0 -
Comparing the current one with Windows may be a bit harsh, but maybe more like Adobe (due to the flatness).
Photorealistic would be cool, but it might end up looking like a Spotlight (or worse Sherlock) replacement. Maybe it just needs some more 3D to look a little more Mac-ish. Here's one several of us used for Logos 1.2 (adapted from an icon on the logos website).
Maybe drop a little of the glossy and puffiness.
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Brian Kane said:
Maybe drop a little of the glossy and puffiness
No, don't change a thing. It is perfect! Where can I get it?
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Brian Kane said:
Comparing the current one with Windows may be a bit harsh, but maybe more like Adobe (due to the flatness).
Photorealistic would be cool, but it might end up looking like a Spotlight (or worse Sherlock) replacement. Maybe it just needs some more 3D to look a little more Mac-ish. Here's one several of us used for Logos 1.2 (adapted from an icon on the logos website).
[...] Maybe drop a little of the glossy and puffiness.
If you look carefully and compare the Adobe icons to the Logos icon it can be seen that the Adobe icons use subtle visual elements which, when they are added up, make them more visually strong.
- the effect of light and shade, light coming from the top
- the words (or for the Logos icon the cross and magnifying glass) have a 3-D effect done by having the main colour (pink or brown) be slightly lighter where it edges the letters
If the Logos icon had those it would definitely be better. Also I wonder if Logos is making high quality large icons like which Apple did for OS X.
The second icon is not really my style - it would have to be toned down a lot for my tastes [;)]
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Ben said:
Sorry for the massive thread-jack.
Apology accepted [:P] because you did take it right off topic.
But it was an interesting and lively discussion.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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Devs,
Why not reuse the Iphone App Icon? That has a very Mac-like feel.
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I don't think we should re-use the iphone logo. If you look at the different logos for iphone and mac, you'll see that the lighting angle is very different.
To make it properly 'mac-like', you definitely need to make it more 3d, like the Quicktime logo alongside it in the original post.
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DavidDrew said:
I don't think we should re-use the iphone logo. If you look at the different logos for iphone and mac, you'll see that the lighting angle is very different.
To make it properly 'mac-like', you definitely need to make it more 3d, like the Quicktime logo alongside it in the original post.
The original poster agrees [:)]
If you look at the difference between these icons
and the Logos icon
it's not just the fact that the icon is 'flat' as I have said previously. But the fact that Mac icons are 'three dimensional' and also they aren't the typical boring Windows square icons but sit as objects on the dock. Look at the Pages icon in the first screenshot - world of difference.
"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein
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