Guilt by Association

Vincent Gombert

Greetings all

I am reaching out to all to see if anyone knows a method of how I can search for occurrences where there is a case of "Guilt by association"? I have been racking my brain but cannot seem to come up with a solution. If anyone knows I would be grateful if the procedure can be shared with me.

Also if any solution for the above, if it can be applied to occurrences where a person is an associate or accomplice.

With Love in the lord.

Vincent

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Richard Villanueva

You could run a library search of “guilty by association”, guilt NEAR association. the latter yielded plenty results on a mobile app search for me.

You could also try the terms communal guilt or community guilt.

This may give you some results which would most likely give some scriptural breadcrumbs to follow. you coul also run some terms through a topic guid and see what pops up.

As as far as any types of advanced search syntax ninja-moves, I will defer to an MVP.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975894#Comment_975894

Many thanks for your info. I was hoping for a syntax search which could extra information from scripture as such. Thank you once again, perhaps someone else will be able to assist with the syntax search.

The first example that popped into my head was Sapphira (Acts 5). The second was the family of Achan (Joshua 7).

Hope this helps,

Jack

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975906#Comment_975906

Thank you Jack, those are good examples. Keep them coming, the more the better.

Vincent

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975906#Comment_975906

The first example that popped into my head was Sapphira (Acts 5). The second was the family of Achan (Joshua 7).

Search idea that includes Acts 5:1 and Joshua 7:24

{Section <PropositionalOutline = Accompaniment>} INTERSECTS {Section <PreachingTheme = God: Wrath>}

Keep Smiling [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975953#Comment_975953

Deuteronomy 21:1-9 comes to mind, but I do not see any way to find it with a search. NTSK links from there to Deuteronomy 19:12-13, another place where the community bears guilt. From there, a number of references pop up, which you could keep chasing. 1 Kings 2:31, Numbers 35:33 and 2 Samuel 21:1.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975953#Comment_975953

Thank you very much. Can you give me an example of the section search you make reference to?

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975954#Comment_975954

Excellent, thank you very much. Keep them coming, I am building a list.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975953#Comment_975953

Excellent.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975956#Comment_975956

Can you give me an example of the section search you make reference to?

Keep Smiling [:)]

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975978#Comment_975978

Thank you very much. If you think of anything else I am a sponge for ideas at the moment. [:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975979#Comment_975979

I don't really have time right now to refine what I have to propose to you, but I was thinking that several related concepts might help bring up relevant passages. I would suggest that you add these to the "guilty by association" phrase search and narrow your search to the resource types more likely to produce Bible results (e.g., type:commentary).

The related concepts I was thinking of include participation in sin and collective sin and related terms. You may pickup ideas for formulating your searches by reading commentaries on Korah's and Achan's family members condemnation (along with them). I hope this helps.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975984#Comment_975984

Thank you for your time, appreciated. I will work through your suggestions and see what come out of the wood work. Thanks again.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/975986#Comment_975986

Try this search out:

(community, association, corporate) AND (responsibility, guilt)

This article may be interesting and helpful to you. (See also this journal article or this section in Goldingay's OT Theology.)

Another example: All Egyptians suffered in Exodus for the sin of Pharaoh.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976039#Comment_976039

Another excellent one. Keep them coming. [:D]

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976018#Comment_976018

GREAT STUFF [:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976074#Comment_976074

GREAT STUFF

Your's is an interesting question, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with almost all of the conclusions so far.

Perhaps we need to define the phrase a bit. Here are a couple of definitions or descriptions:

guilt ascribed to someone not because of any evidence but because of their association with an offender.
guilt by association means that you personally didn't really do something wrong but that people who you are associated with did.

Guilt by association is not real guilt. If people are guilty that is one thing, but guilt by association is a way to imply guilt when none exists.

Sapphira is an example of actual guilt, not guilt by association.

The family of Achan did not suffer from guilt by association. Since they undoubtedly knew what Achan, their husband and father did, but said nothing, they were (at least those old enough to know better) guilty of co-conspiracy. Exactly why they were killed along with Achan is never stated, but they were never accused of being guilty of Achan's crime.

The people of Egypt were not guilty by association. If they were guilty (again, they are never said to be), it was that they were guilty of oppression and supporting an oppressive regime. No where is anyone but Pharaoh actually described as being guilty.

The other examples that have been given are not example of guilt by association, either. Some might be matters of corporate responsibility but that is not the same thing.

The only example I can think of that fits the definition is:

"Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" (John 1:46) Since Jesus was from Nazareth this amounted to a charge of not being good by association with that city.

So, seeing your enthusiastic responses, you seem to be looking for something other than what is meant by the term guilt by association for that is not what the examples cited are about.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976086#Comment_976086

Thank you for your detailed answer, it is much appreciated. I have found this subject very interesting and ALL input has been most helpful and enlightening. Thank you to all for their assistance. Keep this post going as more information is bound to appear. [:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976086#Comment_976086

Mark, how is the second definition substantially different from corporate responsibility? Everyone bears judicial guilt because of their association with someone else.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976254#Comment_976254

Mark, how is the second definition substantially different from corporate responsibility? Everyone bears judicial guilt because of their association with someone else.

Guilt by association is not actual guilt. Corporate responsibility is. That is the fundamental difference.

Guilt by association is guilt ascribed by someone who does not actually know whether you are guilty or not but who assumes you are because of your associations (the example I gave concerning Jesus). So no actual guilt is borne in cases of guilt by association.

In corporate responsibility you are responsible along with others for the commission of a sin, even though you may not have committed the actual sin. The Bible has a number of examples (some you referred to) that illustrate this sort of shared responsibility and shared guilt and the circumstances under which it can occur. Is that more clear?

EDIT:

I should add that guilt by association is a figure of speech. By inadvertently taking it literally (as a truth statement about someone's guilt) rather than figuratively (a way to speak about the assumption of someone's guilt) you can make it to be virtually the same as corporate guilt (actual guilt due to one's association with a group), but that is a mistake in usage.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976263#Comment_976263

May I suggest that this thread is wading into the waters of discussing theological ideas and concepts that are prohibited in the forums. The biblical concept of guilt, as important as it is, is not a matter to be discussed here. However, I’d be interested in learning more ideas about how the OP and all of us can use Logos or perhaps resources made for Logos to answer this question.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976270#Comment_976270

I’d be interested in learning more ideas about how the OP and all of us can use Logos or perhaps resources made for Logos to answer this question.

I think once we define exactly what the OP was asking for we could do that. That's what some of this discussion has been about, at least my contribution to it.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976271#Comment_976271

Greetings All

Firstly, thanks to all for your input. I am interested in methods to obtain the following occurrences in Scripture:

1. Guilt by association, whereby guilt is ascribed to someone not because of any evidence but because of their association with an offender, or assumptions.

2. Corporate Guilt or Consequences that are brought about by the wrath of God as a result of someone associating with either sinners or those practicing false doctrine etc. Or a community that collectively receives the wrath of God as a result of one or more persons sin as in the case of Israel with Achan.

I hope I have explained this correctly. Thank you once again all who have contributed so far.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976271#Comment_976271

So any search methods, or syntax or other would be appreciated. Examples given to date have been very useful.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976086#Comment_976086

Your's is an interesting question, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with almost all of the conclusions so far.

There were no conclusions, Mark, only suggestions of passages frequently associated with the notion of corporate guilt or guilt by association. What you propose is a narrower definition which may or may not correspond to what the OP had in mind.

Other possible biblical examples (again, depending on what criteria one uses) involve cases in which third parties are punished for what is ostensibly the sin of someone else. There are several such cases in David's story:

The death of his son by Bathsheba (though not guilty)
The death of Israelites because of David's census
The death of Saul's seven sons to appease the wrong against the Gibeonites

There is also the scare of the stone of witness of the Transjordan tribes.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976442#Comment_976442

Great Examples Francis. Thank you. Keep them coming. And also if anyone can think of a search criteria that will uncover examples like these you have given that would also be great. I know it is a difficult one, but sooner or later someone will come up with it. To date, I have not been able to think of anything.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/976445#Comment_976445

Hello Vincent:

Your "guilt by association" concept search is most interesting. Yet can you give more context to the type you are looking for?

Is it in the context of exegesis, church history, biblical theology, systematic theology, or practical (application) theology?

In general I would go about researching the concept by using a collection where I can get explanation of the concept and hopefully reference to the pertinent passages:

Then I would do a search using that collection as shown above in the right.

Exploring the result allows you to see different angles, so you can dig deeper:

This is an interesting concept, but without a context, one can only reflect on the many ramifications possible:

Related to unfaithfulness?... belonging to any organization that does not have Jesus Christ as Head would put you into a "guilt by association" status? Maybe, but what if you do not know that the organization actually proclaims Christ in lip service, but the actions are far from the Character and nature of God?

If you do not do due diligence to see into that, does that make you guilty by association due to negligence?

Being part of a non Godly system, makes one a guilty by association person? e.g. structural evil (as in savage uncontrolled capitalism, exploiting countries and persons, for the middleman greed, etc.)

How about guilty by association with certain sins: one person may not commit adultery physically (as in actual event), but Jesus said that if one covets a woman in the mind, amounts to the same as physical adultery...

finally, there is a variation of the theme: "guilty by lack of association with"

1. The theological virtues: Love, hope, faith... if you do not have them being an active part in your life, does that mean that you are guilty by not having them associated to your living?

What about the weightier matters of the law: love of God Romans 5:5, justice, mercy, compassion, etc. if they are missing, are you guilty by not having association to them and their effects in conduct, belief and action?

To ponder: according to Stephen the deacon in the book of Acts, failure of the religious persons that persecuted him was due to "them always resisting the Holy Spirit", so they seem to be guilty of "Lack of association with the Holy Spirit", and that led them to all kind of wrong actions, including misrepresentation, slander, and even murder.

1Jn 3:12 We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous.

So it seems that if one associates with the motives, worldview, ideology, lifestyle, and spirit of Cain, one would be guilty by association with what he represents and values: the counter values that God displays in nature and character.

Then for more biblical input, you can look in Revelation the messages to the churches, and many wrong associations are depicted there.

Do you believe in the priesthood of all believers? well, the Nicolaitans did not, so you can study that to not associate with their ideology / doctrine.

Note that in Laodicea, lack of association with Jesus Christ, produced a situation in which Jesus is out knocking to enter... (in the mind, lifestyle, worldview, actions, beliefs, etc. of a person).

Hope this helps.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/977299#Comment_977299

Related to unfaithfulness?... belonging to any organization that does not have Jesus Christ as Head would put you into a "guilt by association" status? Maybe, but what if you do not know that the organization actually proclaims Christ in lip service, but the actions are far from the Character and nature of God?

Wow. Might be dangerous to go to church. Especially in western Turkey in the early years.

The OP could also consider the opposite: saved by association (pastoral writer).

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/977299#Comment_977299

Thank you for your contribution and I apologise for the delayed response. The reason I am asking about this, is recently I was privy to a particular issue. Without getting into details it involved a congregation that accepted two members that were and still are acting against the commandments of Christ. As a concerned friend I raised this with members of the congregation who believe their walk in Christ is all about love and felt they are not responsible for the presence or fellowship of the two new members. Hence my question of "Guilt my association" or as I am leaning more towards "Consequences by association". I hope this gives a brief background into the reason for my question. So any input by anyone is welcome and appreciated.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/978391#Comment_978391

Wow, Vincent, this is a hard but sadly all too common one. The Scriptures do not directly address this. There is the case of the unrepentant sinner excommunicated by the church in Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5, but what to do when the church will not excommunicate? Are the leaders now also committing their own sin of disobedience by ignoring what Christ commands? If so, can the reverse situation of Matthew 18 be prescribed (a person withdraws from fellowship when a church will not discipline)? Or is one to stay, and having made every effort to communicate on the issues, leave the matter between the leaders and God? Is the responsibility of a congregant different here than that of a person in leadership?

For my part, I do not believe that fellowship is to be maintained at all cost in the name of love. One aspect of the ministry of Jesus that is rarely spoken about is that it remained connected but independent from the religious institutions of Israel which clearly He disapproved (hypocrites, faithless, unbelieving, evil generation, etc). So He attended synagogues and spoke in the Temple but did not "submit" or associate with the priests, Levites, and recognised religious authorities such as teachers of the Law and rabbis. The synagogue and Temple were mostly evangelistic venues: His "Church" was with His disciples wherever they happened to be.

Others had to do with widespread apostasy in biblical history, notably Elijah and Elisha and (one would assume) the school of prophets associated with them. Even Isaiah spoke of a remnant and of disciples which were part of it while the generalised situation was likened to Sodom and Gomorrah while "trampling" the courts of the Temple and multiplying sacrifices.

This can sound like, or evoke fears of, sectarianism and self-righteousness. These are, to be sure, real dangers. But it does not follow that it is always preferable to remain in fellowship. The believers of the letters to Revelation were evidently in close contact with the Jewish communities, but it is unlikely that the author would entertain the possibility that they should attend a "synagogue of Satan."

You know best what your church is like. Are they others who know the church and can give you counsel? May the Lord give you guidance.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/978391#Comment_978391

Hi Vincent: It is good to see that you are a concerned Christian. I am not an expert, but have seen my share of situations.

First of all, remember that the only sin that will not be pardoned is the "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit"

Then we get into some areas: unrepentance, leadership misconduct, appropriate systems, etc.

Much of what you can do depends on what kind of denomination / tradition you are member of.

As far as resources that can guide you in certain ways:

Resources will allow you what underlying issues are at stake, and ways in which different groups have gone about solving them.

In your library you can also search for certain formal ways to deal with the issue (which by the way some traditions reject considering them institutionalized revenge):

If your system allows, and you can organize a formal committee, just make sure that you have people with experience in due process (legal type), if possible ethicists, theologians, or mediators.

If you cannot get any of such volunteer professionals, just remind members that final objective is restorative justice (sinners repenting and changing their ways, negligent leaders to understand that better filtering methods for membership is needed, etc.).

Remember:

Object: what actually was done... Accepting non repentant sinners in Church (although most of us were so at one time), allowing them to continue even if not desiring to change, etc.

Intent: what is the leaders reason for letting them in? to try to save them? or were they unaware of what problems the persons had?, or are they part of a collusion against the Kingdom to infiltrate tares with an occult agenda?

situation: duress... were leaders pressured into accepting the persons? did they take a pragmatic approach, in which the physical benefits in their opinion outweight the spiritual ones?

A lot of prayer and fasting is needed by the investigating committee.

Now going back to context, different groups approach the subject different...

I have seen in Charismatic groups, their desire to deal with the root cause of the problem.

They allege that in the Bible it shows that before Mary could become a true disciple, unclean spirits had to be expelled Mar 16:9.

Accordingly they have deliverance ministries, with people having gifts of discernment of spirits, that can see through persons that come with ungodly ulterior motives.

Of course if your tradition rejects supernatural dimension work, and the like this would not be an option.

Curiously enough, where there is power of the Holy Spirit for real, persons that (for lack of other categorization) can be considered tares, tend to stay away.

Work with what you have, with love for God and His Kingdom, and He will be pleased. Just remember that sometimes the worst sinners become the best Christians after metanoia happens through the Holy Spirit.

Hope this helps.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/978391#Comment_978391

Thank you for your contribution and I apologise for the delayed response. The reason I am asking about this, is recently I was privy to a particular issue. Without getting into details it involved a congregation that accepted two members that were and still are acting against the commandments of Christ. As a concerned friend I raised this with members of the congregation who believe their walk in Christ is all about love and felt they are not responsible for the presence or fellowship of the two new members. Hence my question of "Guilt my association" or as I am leaning more towards "Consequences by association". I hope this gives a brief background into the reason for my question. So any input by anyone is welcome and appreciated.

Two things come to mind, both from 1 Corinthians 5. One is removal from the congregation (a leadership responsibility surely) and the second is not to associate with such a person (an individual responsibility?). I either case, the goal to keep in mind is restoring the individual. No fellowship with fellow believers would be intolerable for a true believer. Unfortunately in today's world it would mean just going down to the next church to avoid the consequences.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/978558#Comment_978558

Thank you Hamilton for your detailed reply. I am compiling all the information as I receive.

Vincent Gombert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/978629#Comment_978629

Thank you Alex.

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