A proposal that benefits everyone
It really bothers me that we are not allowed to purchase older editions of resources which have been replaced by newer editions. I use BAGD as an example, which has been discontinued since the release of BDAG. The problem is that there are still many links in resources to BAGD. To be fair, I offer the following observations:
1. I understand that publishers do not want the older editions competing with the newer editions.
2. I WOULD NOT want the links that originally went to BAGD to be redirected to BDAG. They are not the same resource, and the original citation was to a specific edition. Things change and it would not be appropriate to simply redirect citations in this manner.
My solution would be to allow those who have purchased the newer editions, in this case BDAG, to be allowed to purchase the older edition as well. This way, the publisher is guaranteed the proceeds from the newer edition, and the additional proceeds from the older edition are icing on the cake.
This would seem to benefit everyone involved. No one would be required to purchase the older editions, the publisher and Logos can only benefit, and those who want the older editions can get them.
I am mainly talking about resources which have already been produced by Logos in the past and have been discontinued. I do not know that I would expect Logos to spend extra time to create new resources for older editions, but I would still purchase them if they did!
I use BAGD as an example, but I was actually lucky enough to be able to purchase it in an older collection.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
Comments
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Some publishers have additional reasons for not wanting older editions sold, even if the newer has already been purchased; e.g. NIV1984.
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A number of years ago I called The University of Chicago Press and asked them about their feelings about Logos publishing BAGD. The fellow I talked to said that he had no problem with that idea. I believe originally when the new BDAG came out, that they asked Logos to pull the older volume.
I too acquired a copy from an older collection, but I think it should be made available since all scholarship from 1958 to 2000 referenced it.
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Joseph Turner said:
allow those who have purchased the newer editions, in this case BDAG, to be allowed to purchase the older edition as well
I like this solution a LOT! I'm unfortunate enough not to own BAGD and come across links to it all the time. As shown by the concordance tool, a single volume of ESS (1Tim) contains 590 citations to BAGD!
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Virgil Buttram said:
Some publishers have additional reasons for not wanting older editions sold, even if the newer has already been purchased; e.g. NIV1984.
Do you know what those additional reasons might be? I would think the NIV1984 would be a perfect example of a resource which the publisher does not want competing with the newer edition. I don't think I understand your argument.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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I really like this idea. It seems like a win-win. There are so many resources that reference the NIV1984 (even newer resources) I'm often frustrated at not being able to purchase a copy. What does anyone stand to lose by allowing owners of the newer versions to purchase the older versions?Joseph Turner said:Virgil Buttram said:Some publishers have additional reasons for not wanting older editions sold, even if the newer has already been purchased; e.g. NIV1984.
Do you know what those additional reasons might be? I would think the NIV1984 would be a perfect example of a resource which the publisher does not want competing with the newer edition. I don't think I understand your argument.
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Joseph Turner said:Virgil Buttram said:
Some publishers have additional reasons for not wanting older editions sold, even if the newer has already been purchased; e.g. NIV1984.
Do you know what those additional reasons might be? I would think the NIV1984 would be a perfect example of a resource which the publisher does not want competing with the newer edition. I don't think I understand your argument.
The additional, I'd assume, is more than financial. Credibility of the new (mainly those not-he's). But only surmising.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Joseph Turner said:Virgil Buttram said:
Some publishers have additional reasons for not wanting older editions sold, even if the newer has already been purchased; e.g. NIV1984.
Do you know what those additional reasons might be? I would think the NIV1984 would be a perfect example of a resource which the publisher does not want competing with the newer edition. I don't think I understand your argument.
You can buy the Anglicized NIV1984 or the Anglicized NIV2011, even on Logos. You cannot buy the American NIV1984, you can only buy the American NIV2011. Different rights holders with different motivations. I cannot speculate on what those respective motivations are, I only note that they obviously exist.
Back to the original suggestion re: BAGD, I like it and would like to see it happen.
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I still fail to understand the "Why" in removing older Bibles/Resources/Dictionaries/etc. concerning the word of God. It brings tears to my eyes, and should never happen. In the case of the NIV84, a bible translation that many have grown up on, and many congregations use as their standard translation, it is tragic. I have grown up on the KJV, and our congregation uses that as the standard translation. If the KJV were to be removed, it would be just as bad.
Now, concerning the BAGD. When Logos and I became a family [:)], I was soon introduced to BDAG and other lexical resources, and one thing that I noticed was that in some of the other resources, BAGD was referenced a lot. So, I said to myself "Let's see how much BAGD will cost", soon to discover that I could not buy or save for it at any cost, because it is no longer available. That's not good, and to this day, we can not buy BAGD. [:'(]
So, all this to say, that I am all in for bringing back the resources, and when they become available, I will save for or buy out right (as I'm sure many others will do). [:)]
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Virgil Buttram said:
Some publishers have additional reasons for not wanting older editions sold, even if the newer has already been purchased; e.g. NIV1984.
That's true in some cases, but this could be an attractive proposition for many publishers - especially if the older edition is already in the Logos format. They get to charge a little more, and since the older version is only sold in conjunction with the newer edition, sales of the newer edition aren't undercut.
It strikes me a bit like paying for a DVD that includes the "director's cut" of a movie along with the theatrical release version. I might not spring for the more expensive DVD, but my son - who's a serious movie buff - would most definitely do it.
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I've been looking to purchasing BAGD for several years now with no luck. I am one who would jump at the opportunity to own it. I'm for anything that FL can do to make this resource reavailable. Is there a Book Suggestion page for this resource?
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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Joseph Turner said:
My solution would be to allow those who have purchased the newer editions, in this case BDAG, to be allowed to purchase the older edition as well. This way, the publisher is guaranteed the proceeds from the newer edition, and the additional proceeds from the older edition are icing on the cake.
Yes... bring BAGD in please...!
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+1 [Y] for BAGD to use along with BDAG.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Yes please
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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I agree! I see more citations for BAGD then BDAG
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I agree also. Having BAGD and BDAG makes sense! Keep well Paul
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Me too!
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I have started a Book Suggestion page for this work, I link to the page here. Show your support by voting.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Thankful I have been using Logos long enough to have both of these resources in my library but I strongly support your idea Joseph. All logos users should be able to see these two resources in their library if they would like to have access to them.
My suggestion would be for BDAG to be available to purchase along (as is the case now) or to be able to purchase it in a dynamic collection that includes both BDAG and BAGD. This would then be a way to achieve your solution.Joseph Turner said:My solution would be to allow those who have purchased the newer editions, in this case BDAG, to be allowed to purchase the older edition as well. This way, the publisher is guaranteed the proceeds from the newer edition, and the additional proceeds from the older edition are icing on the cake.
Also thankful I have NIV84 in my library. I can understand the disappoint of many of you not being able to access it. I grew up with it in my faith alongside the NKJV.
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Beloved said:
I have started a Book Suggestion page for this work, I link to the page here. Show your support by voting.
bump link
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Thank you! Great idea! I've bought several books from the current sale and they point to that not-too-old lexicon.
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Beloved said:Beloved said:
I have started a Book Suggestion page for this work, I link to the page here. Show your support by voting.
bump link
This is the actual link (that which you posted was just a search string for finding it; works OK, but this gets you right to the page of that suggestions):
I too am fortunate to have the 1979 edition too, but I think it's an excellent suggestion so I expended a full 3 votes for it.
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Thanks Rosie!
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Beloved said:
Thanks Rosie!
My votes have been cast. Even though I already have it in my library I support it for all those who don't have it in their library.
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I also cast three votes.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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I do want to reiterate, as the focus of this post has turned mostly on getting BAGD, which I agree is a good thing, that I am speaking about all previously available earlier editions of resources which are tagged in other places, and not just BAGD. The NIV84 is another good example which was brought up earlier in the thread.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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I am in the same boat, gave 3 votes
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Joseph Turner said:
I am speaking about all previously available earlier editions of resources which are tagged in other places, and not just BAGD.
Thanks, Joseph. Could we have a bit of a response from Faithlife?!
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My primary frustration with not having the NIV84 in my library along-side the 2011 version, is in having a library of apx. 3400 resources (small compared to many others, I know) in which the vast majority of the resources referencing the NIV, reference the 1984 version (to the point of discussing specific word-choices that are used in the translation), yet NOT be able to follow along because I'm not allowed to have the 1984 version in addition to my 2011 version. This negatively affects the value and usefulness of all those resources referencing the NIV84.doc said:Thankful I have been using Logos long enough to have both of these resources in my library but I strongly support your idea Joseph. All logos users should be able to see these two resources in their library if they would like to have access to them.
My suggestion would be for BDAG to be available to purchase along (as is the case now) or to be able to purchase it in a dynamic collection that includes both BDAG and BAGD. This would then be a way to achieve your solution.Joseph Turner said:My solution would be to allow those who have purchased the newer editions, in this case BDAG, to be allowed to purchase the older edition as well. This way, the publisher is guaranteed the proceeds from the newer edition, and the additional proceeds from the older edition are icing on the cake.
Also thankful I have NIV84 in my library. I can understand the disappoint of many of you not being able to access it. I grew up with it in my faith alongside the NKJV.
I know there's nothing illegal about Zondervan's decision to stop publishing the 1984 version, but to market study and research resources that they publish, and which reference other resources that they have published and control the rights to, and yet NOT allow the customers who buy their study and research resources to also buy the Bible version referenced by those study and research resources is (in my opinion) disingenuous at best, and does not reflect a good Christian business ethic.
NOTE: The bold and italic highlights in the quote from doc's post were added by me.
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Would the Anglicised version of the NIV do the job as that's still available in the 1984 version?
https://www.logos.com/product/29979/the-holy-bible-new-international-version-anglicised
UK spelling is not that different.
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Thanks for the suggestion, Paul. In fact, that's exactly what I thought a couple of years ago so I picked up the 1984 Anglicised version. But what I realized is that while It can be of help in some situations, unfortunately it's not an interlinear, which makes it difficult to use to track with the author of a commentary for instance when referencing/discussing the Greek or Hebrew.Paul Caneparo said:Would the Anglicised version of the NIV do the job as that's still available in the 1984 version?
https://www.logos.com/product/29979/the-holy-bible-new-international-version-anglicised
UK spelling is not that different.
The OP's point is so spot-on, I just don't understand why Zondervan has taken the stance they have. If they don't want to sell me just the 1984 version, fine--I understand they need to pay for the work done to create the 2011 version--I don't begrudge them that at all. Just let me buy the 1984 version as well, please.
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My 3 votes have been cast!
DAL
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Reuben Helmuth said:
Thanks, Joseph. Could we have a bit of a response from Faithlife?!
I too would appreciate a response from FL.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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[:)] 3 Votes Added [:)]
JK
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Can anyone think of any other volumes which would need to be considered? I found BAGD, NIV84, and some of the Baker Encountering the Bible Series.
I specifically looked at Fee's 1 Corinthians in NICNT, which still has both volumes available, and I thought some of the IVP dictionaries had fallen away, but I note that both the first and second editions of Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels are available.
Which others have been discontinued?
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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The Evangelical dictionary of theology 1st Ed. I don't know if this was ever in logos but they have 2 and 3
https://www.logos.com/product/8029/evangelical-dictionary-of-theology-edt-2nd-ed
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BAGD and NIV84 are the ones I think that are the most wanted. There was a time when NASB 1977 was removed from sale but after many years of asking it was made available for purchase again. So keep asking, keep pushing this thread.
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Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Rosie Perera said:Beloved said:Beloved said:
I have started a Book Suggestion page for this work, I link to the page here. Show your support by voting.
bump link
This is the actual link (that which you posted was just a search string for finding it; works OK, but this gets you right to the page of that suggestions):
I too am fortunate to have the 1979 edition too, but I think it's an excellent suggestion so I expended a full 3 votes for it.
bump keep voting!
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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I put in 3 votes as well. Prayerfully this will come to us soon.
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Joseph Turner said:
Do you know what those additional reasons might be? I would think the NIV1984 would be a perfect example of a resource which the publisher does not want competing with the newer edition.
The NIV84 was replaced amidst a significant amount of controversy surrounding gender inclusive language, and the integrity of a "Christian" company doing what it publicly commits to do. I'm assuming this is what Virgil was referring to (and Denise as well).
Zondervon publicly committing to not REPLACE the NIV84 with a gender inclusive version. Then, a short time later, they went ahead and did just that, with no heads-up to the public, in the dark of night, as it were. They snatched up all unsold copies of the 84 version, and forced movement to the 2011. It was swift and deliberate. They were making a definitive move and presumably a definitive statement about gender inclusive language, by not allowing people to continue to buy the older version. My understanding was that stores were told by Zondervon that they were "not allowed" to sell the older version.
It would seemingly go against this political (for lack of a better term) and philosophical direction if they then allowed Logos to continue to sell it.
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Maybe Faithlife could add interlinears to the other NIV84s they sell?
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bump
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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It seems that would go a long, long way in making the NIV84 UK version fill the gap left by removal of the US version. Faithlife, please consider this if at all possible.Mattillo said:Maybe Faithlife could add interlinears to the other NIV84s they sell?
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bump a comment from FL is welcome
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Let's get this up over 100!
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Since we can no longer buy the U.S. version of NIV84, I would like to log a suggestion, asking that Faithlife provide the reverse interlinear feature for the U.K. version that we can still buy.
Since the resource itself is already available for Logos and I just want the interlinear feature added, can someone tell me the right place (or better yet, provide a link to the right place) for making such a request?
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Rick Ausdahl said:
Since the resource itself is already available for Logos and I just want the interlinear feature added, can someone tell me the right place (or better yet, provide a link to the right place) for making such a request?
Faithlife Contact => https://www.logos.com/contact includes New Book Suggestion email
Keep Smiling [:)]
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So... if I'm tracking with you, even though the basic book/resource is already sold by Faithlife, you're thinking the request for the addition of the interlinear feature would still qualify? I can sure give it a try. I just hadn't thought of adding the interlinear feature as qualifying as a new book. Thanks for the suggestion! [:)]Rick Ausdahl said:Since the resource itself is already available for Logos and I just want the interlinear feature added, can someone tell me the right place (or better yet, provide a link to the right place) for making such a request?
Faithlife Contact => https://www.logos.com/contact includes New Book Suggestion email
Keep Smiling
If it does qualify as a new book, I'll also go to https://suggestbooks.uservoice.com/ and put in a UserVoice suggestion.
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said:
for BAGD to use along with BDAG.
