What is the best Christian resource on dinosaurs?

Francis said:

I am looking for a scholarly treatment of the question. I am not interested in vague references to Behemoth and Leviathan or endless questioning of datation, allegations of fraud, etc. I am interested in a resource that takes the evidence seriously and deals with it with scholarly rigour in relation to the Christian faith and creationism.

Put differently I am not looking for a book that makes Christians feel good and think they're okay. I am more interested in a resource that would be a compelling case for a critically-minded unbeliever. 

Any recommendation (preferably in Logos)?

Francis

I've long been interested in Genesis 1-11 issues. I'm finding Hugh Ross the most satisfying. I haven't read him on dinosaurs as such, but it might be worth checking out the index previews. He is an old earth creationist.

Depending on your creation timeline...  (and walking the line of keeping theology out of this forum)...

The Hebrew scriptures should be silent about dinosaurs (indeed, they are!) because they never crossed paths with one.  They were dead long before humankind.

If your creation timeline is much shorter... well... good luck!

Paul Caneparo said:

I've long been interested in Genesis 1-11 issues. I'm finding Hugh Ross the most satisfying. I haven't read him on dinosaurs as such, but it might be worth checking out the index previews. He is an old earth creationist.

I second that suggestion.

Here are a number of articles on dinosaurs by Hugh Ross:

https://www.reasons.org/explore/publications/rtb-101/dinosaurs

If you want a view of the broader issues that is critical but still takes Scripture seriously, I'd recommend Genesis 1 as Ancient Cosmology by John Walton.  Or if you want something that doesn't take as long to read, he has The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate.

Mike Binks said:

'A Church History of Scotland' without doubt.

Mike is the daily winner of the internet.

[:D]

Francis said:

I am looking for a scholarly treatment of the question. I am not interested in vague references to Behemoth and Leviathan or endless questioning of datation, allegations of fraud, etc. I am interested in a resource that takes the evidence seriously and deals with it with scholarly rigour in relation to the Christian faith and creationism.

Put differently I am not looking for a book that makes Christians feel good and think they're okay. I am more interested in a resource that would be a compelling case for a critically-minded unbeliever. 

Any recommendation (preferably in Logos)?

Francis. Further to my suggestion of Hugh Ross I see this book has a chapter on dinosaurs.

https://www.logos.com/product/43281/hidden-treasures-in-the-book-of-job-how-the-oldest-book-in-the-bible-answers-todays-scientific-questions

Rick Carmickle said:

 I understand what you are asking about, however, let me offer an alternative perspective. The question of dinosaurs is a scientific question about paleontology. Because the geological, astronomical, and paleontological  evidence is clear and irrefutable, as believers it’s time to except the evidence of science. The earth is 14.3 billion years old, and the earth 4.5 billion years old. And the  dinosaurs lived 66 to 250,000,000 years ago. In fact, the T Rex is closer in time to us than the Stegosaurus. With that, the best resource is a paleontology book on dinosaurs. Unfortunately, Christians don’t write those very often.

I love my Christian brothers who have a different perspective on the timeline of creation. But Answers in Genesis is simply deceiving fellow believers from the truth God has made a parent to those who look.  And I like the recommendations of John Walton’s Works. 

This. I second this.

I would recommend anything by Denis O. Lamoureux, particularly I Love Jesus & I Accept Evolution, which was written specifically to address the question of the Bible and dinosaurs. Unfortunately, it's not in Logos, but Lamoureux is a contributor to two books that are available in Logos: Four Views on the Historical Adam and How I Changed My Mind About Evolution: Evangelicals Reflect on Faith and Science. Lamoureux is associate professor of science and religion at St. Joseph’s College in the University of Alberta. He holds three earned doctoral degrees—dentistry, evangelical theology and evolutionary biology and is extremely well qualified to write on this topic. He also has a master's degree from my alma mater, Regent College, and I've met him -- he came back to speak at a forum once while I was still there. His story of how he changed his mind (which he tells in his chapter of the aforementioned book) is quite amazing. He started out as an atheist, was born again and became a young earth creationist, and through a trajectory that you'll have to read his story to find out, wound up an evolutionary creationist.

Here is the preface of I Love Jesus & I Accept Evolution:

THIS IS A TRUE story. A number of years ago I attended a conference on the relationship between science and religion at a leading university. One evening there was a public lecture that featured one of the most important anti-evolutionists in the country. During the question and answer period, a young man came to the microphone in front of about one thousand people. In a very respectful way, he asked a simple question, “What about dinosaurs, how do they fit into the Bible?”

I will never forget the answer that this university professor gave. In a mean-spirited tone, he scolded the young man, “This is an irrelevant question. It doesn’t matter because it has nothing to do with what I’m saying tonight.” And then there was dead silence. It was a very awkward and uncomfortable moment for everyone in the auditorium, including a number of individuals who were associated with this professor and his view of origins. In fact, I was sitting with a number of these anti-evolutionists. Without any response, the young man turned away from the microphone, walked up the aisle, and went out of the auditorium. No one got out of their seat to follow him. Not even one of the Christian anti-evolutionists with whom I was seated.

But I immediately sensed the Lord calling me to comfort this young man. Yes, me, of all people, an evolutionist! I went out to the foyer and found him. He was shaking like a leaf. I introduced myself as a university professor and complemented him on what I thought was an excellent question. And then he said to me with trembling voice, “All I wanted to know from Dr. _______ was where do dinosaurs fit into the Bible, because I would like to tell my high school friends.” Wow! Here was a 16- or 17-year-old boy who had the courage to stand up before a large audience at a major university and ask a question that he believed would help his high school classmates understand the relationship between Scripture and science. He wanted to explain and defend his Christian faith to his friends.

I realized I had a problem. I had just affirmed this student’s question, but how would I explain in only a few minutes where dinosaurs fit into the Bible? My university career has focused on the modern origins debate and questions like this one. But there are no quick and easy answers. I felt handcuffed. Standing before me was a teenager who, along with his classmates, had grown up watching the Jurassic Park movies. They all know that dinosaurs once existed. And here was a young man with a solid faith and a question that undoubtedly many Christians his age have asked. I wanted to tell him that I love Jesus and that I accept evolution. But this was not the right thing to say at that volatile moment. It would only have added to the confusion. All I could do was affirm his wonderful faith, remarkable courage, and intellectual integrity. I told him that loving God with our mind, as Jesus has commanded us, requires that we ask tough questions like the one he had just asked the speaker. I knew he wanted more, but I couldn’t deliver it.

This honest question and shameful answer still echo in my soul years later. As a matter of fact, they have inspired me to write this book. In many ways, it is my attempt at offering a response to this high school student and his classmates. The answer that I give will surprise a lot of Christians. First, I will suggest that the purpose of the Bible is not to reveal scientific facts about how God created the world. To use the words of Billy Graham in the epigraph at the front of this book, “The Bible is not a book of science.”[1] In the same way that the Lord meets each of us wherever we happen to be, the Holy Spirit came down to the level of the ancient biblical writers and used their understanding of nature to reveal that He was the Creator of the entire world. The intention of the biblical creation accounts is to disclose spiritual truths for nourishing our personal relationship with Jesus.

Second, I will propose that God created the universe and life through evolution. This view of origins is known as “evolutionary creation.” It claims that evolution is a creative process similar to that which the Lord uses to form every one of us in our mother’s womb. No Christian today believes that God comes out of heaven to attach an ear, nose, or arm to a developing baby. Instead, we understand that He employs natural processes to create human beings. In fact, God is the creator of all the laws of nature, including these developmental (embryological) mechanisms. I believe that this is also the case with evolution. The Creator planned and maintained evolutionary laws and processes in order to create the entire world and us. In other words, our origin is not a fluke or mistake.

My view of origins is built on the traditional Christian belief that the Lord reveals Himself through Two Divine Books. First, the Book of God’s Words is the Bible. It discloses that we are the only creatures who were made in the Image of God, and that our Creator loves us more that we can ever imagine. I personally understand the power of Scripture. By reading the gospel of John, I was born again thirty years ago. Experiencing the fact that Jesus died for our sins and then rose physically from the grave changed my life completely and forever. Today, I drink from the Bible every morning for my spiritual nourishment in order to strengthen my personal relationship with the Lord. Second, the Book of God’s Works is the natural world. Modern science examines its structure, operation, and origin. Microscopes and telescopes assist in revealing that the creation is incredibly amazing! Beauty, complexity, and functionality in nature point to the mind of God. Stated in another way, the universe and life reflect intelligent design.

The Two Divine Books complement each other in revealing the glory and character of the Creator. I will propose an intimate and fruitful relationship between Biblical faith and evolutionary science. Scripture discloses the spiritual character of the world, while science reveals the divine method of creation. To be sure, such a provocative claim is rarely heard in our churches. This might be offensive to some. But no insult is intended, and I will ask my brothers and sisters in Christ for their patience as they read this book.

In order to understand my view of origins, I strongly advise that the chapters be read in sequence. The conclusions in later chapters are dependent on the terms and ideas presented in earlier ones. There is a short glossary at the back of the book to assist readers with the terminology. I suggest that they introduce themselves to these concepts before starting chapter 1.

No doubt about it, I Love Jesus & I Accept Evolution is a challenging book for most Christians. Readers must be warned that I will make a number of pointed and even disturbing statements, especially with regard to the meaning of several biblical passages. You will be uncomfortable at times. However, there is a generation of young Christian men and women who want to know where dinosaurs fit into the Bible. This is not an irrelevant question. Rather, it’s a very important one. And I believe that asking tough and honest questions is part of the commandment to love God with our mind (Matt 22:37). Hopefully, this book will make a modest contribution in offering some answers on origins and Christian faith.

Rick Carmickle said:

The universe is 14.3 billion years old

Since when? Yesterday it was 13.8 billion years old...a couple of years ago it was 13.7. When I was a kid, it was 5-6 billion. This puts a whole new spin on the meaning of

Rick Carmickle said:

clear and irrefutable

Just so you all know, B'heimohtth was not a dinosaur.

Also, the Bible says one thing and science says something else--they don't agree. That is by YHWH's purposeful design prerogative. He expects you to choose which you accept as worthy of your adherence...the word of His mouth or your lying eyes.

MJ. Smith said:

Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God.

This quote is based on presumptive and speculative assumption. The notion that YHWH is incapable of misdirection is nearly universal and entirely unbiblical.

The writings of Hugh Ross and his perspective on the different geologic ages of earth corresponding to the seven days of creation were helpful in my transition from a strict six-day creationist to a position that wasn’t hostile to basic science. It wasn’t so much the science that I needed (which is clear to anyone approaching it fairly and honestly), but it was more the need for a biblical framework to make sense of it all. That’s where Ross helped the most.

Of course I didn’t stay there. Ross gave way fairly quickly to ID, but once that proved insufficient (as Ross’s worked eventually did too), I was introduced to the writings of Lamoureux (mentioned above) and John H. Walton (who has numerous excellent and relevant books available in Logos) that helped me to understand the Bible in a way that allows compatibility to the modern astronomical, geological, and biological sciences. Tremper Longman III also has written on this subject too.

The trick to this is grounding the Bible in its milieu, and not engaging in eisegesis by trying to force it to conform to our modern standards. Lamoureux and Walton are excellent in this regard, and the latter has done considerable work in Old Testament Bible backgrounds to aid the reader in the same.

So to address your main question, you will never find an accurate account of dinosaurs in the Bible because dinosaurs are not in the Bible to begin with. Ancient Israelites were not aware of their existence, and God inspired the scriptures to speak to their particular situation in life, in ways relevant to them. The question of dinosaurs wasn’t even on their radar.

So I would definitely recommend these two authors in that regard. I would encourage you also to seek out information from non-hostile sources on the relevant science too. Dennis Venema, a Christian evolutionary biologist, is an excellent resource here. He writes regularly for Biologos.org, and has numerous lectures on YouTube too. Highly recommended.

Hope this provides you some helpful guidance!

Greg Masone said:

So to address your main question, you will never find an accurate account of dinosaurs in the Bible because dinosaurs are not in the Bible to begin with. Ancient Israelites were not aware of their existence, and God inspired the scriptures to speak to their particular situation in life, in ways relevant to them. The question of dinosaurs wasn’t even on their radar.

Just to confuse the discussion, confirming Mr Paul's YHWH-ist thoughts, dinosaurs were carefully placed in the late Triassic and Jurassic layers. The levant was given the Pleistocene and Holocene layers, which were, of course, dinosaur-free.

But more seriously, one of the very interesting volumes in the present collections sale:

https://www.logos.com/product/45804/near-eastern-archaeology-a-reader-2nd-ed 

Which covers a LOT of water-front, all the way down to how wide roads were: 2 lanes, oddly enough.

Rick Carmickle said:

Greg Masone:

The story of your intellectual journey parallels mine to an extraordinary degree....

Wow, thats really cool to see. Thank you for sharing your story. I agree also that it can be a barrier to evangelization. In college, when I was working these ideas out, this frequently came up in my talks with non-Christians. I'm incredibly happy to see the work thats been put out in this area since then (just the last fifteen years), and it gives me hope this can lead to more fruitful discussions.

One would have to say that asking this question REX your credibility [:D]

Imo, you were more on track here...

Whyndell Grizzard said:

there is absolutely no objective data about them- period- other than bones

...than here...

Whyndell Grizzard said:

Did they exist at some point, yes

There are very good reasons to doubt dinosaurs ever lived. 

[8-)]

Denise said:

David Paul said:

That wasn't a rhetorical question...I'd really like to know where that clod of information came from.

Your problem is a bit closer to home. I like Manatho (in Logos) and Philo of Byblos (not). As the Egyptian rock histories inched their way backwards in time, the Alexandrian jews were confronted with a Torah increasingly set in proverbial stone. The solution at the time, was to shift to allegory, which the later Christians also embraced. And Genesis re-writes.

4,000 BC is a tight squeeze.

Did you quote the correct comment of mine? It sounds like you may have intended to quote my comment about dinosaurs never having existed.

Seriously, the number was 13.8 billion last I heard, and it was fairly recently that I heard it. 14.3 billion is a completely new and out-of-the-blue number to me, and a drastic shift of half-a-billion years would be the kind of thing I would expect to hear in concert with a huge mea culpa explaining how & why they managed to be off by such a wide margin for so long. In other words, there should be something to go with the 14.3 number besides tea biscuits. I seriously want to know where the number came from.

To your comment, 4,000 B.C. (6K from here) may seem tight, unless we're talking about a being with mad manipulation-of-the-space-time-fabric skills. Creating a world with bones in the ground isn't that big of a deal, is it? Most people balk at the implicit notion that YHWH would have been deliberately causing confusion by indicating (through apparent evidence) that the world was billions of years in existence even though it was only fabricated by Him the aforementioned 6K years ago. But that resistance is fundamentally a preference for idolatry over YHWH's spoken word.

He said it's 6000 years old. He made it look much older. Which are you going to believe? WHY???

The point I'm trying to establish, in light of the OPs question about "what is 'the' Christian response to the fact of dinosaur bones" may very well be "they require no response". I doubt you will find anything in Logos to make that case, but logic (despite MJ's disapproval) and Scripture indicate that fossils are a "tempting non issue"...and are deliberately so.

David Paul said:

Did you quote the correct comment of mine? It sounds like you may have intended to quote my comment about dinosaurs never having existed.

No, actually you qualified your original comment with 'living', to which science remains a theory. Your new comment 'existed' is more arguable, since the bulk of dinosaurs are simply stray bones with distingishing characteristics (if you read the scientific literature).

My comment referred to the tendency to 'go long', in the face of difficult issues much closer. Christians like to attack the atheists, forgetting their argument simple proves Baal indeed may have ridden the skies in a chariot. The closer-to-home issue, is pinpointing 'which god'. Or in the case of dino's, papering over Behemoth (sp), or the race for 'oldest' in Alexandria Egypt.

Rick Carmickle said:

 I understand what you are asking about, however, let me offer an alternative perspective. The question of dinosaurs is a scientific question about paleontology. Because the geological, astronomical, and paleontological  evidence is clear and irrefutable, as believers it’s time to except the evidence of science. The universe is 14.3 billion years old, and the earth 4.5 billion years old. And the  dinosaurs lived 66 to 250,000,000 years ago. In fact, the T-Rex is closer in time to us than the Stegosaurus. With that, the best resource is a paleontology book on dinosaurs. Unfortunately, Christians don’t write those very often.

I love my Christian brothers who have a different perspective on the timeline of creation. But Answers in Genesis is simply deceiving fellow believers from the truth God has made apparent to those who look.  And I like the recommendations of John Walton’s Works. 

Another irony is the theistic evolutionists who are every bit as ignorant of the philosophy of science (and how it effects this debate) as they believe (often rightly) the YECists are about science simpliciter.