The Book of Daniel - originally Hebrew or Aramaic?

Room4more
Room4more Member Posts: 1,730
edited November 20 in English Forum

Simple question. For those who have the Portfolio or Platinum: 

Wasn’t the Book of Daniel originally written in Aramaic(Syriac) then transcribed to Hebrew?

Just need confirmation

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Comments

  • Alan Charles Gielczyk
    Alan Charles Gielczyk Member Posts: 776 ✭✭

    Parts of it are in Hebrew and other parts are in Aramaic.

  • Mark Smith
    Mark Smith MVP Posts: 11,791

    Parts of it are in Hebrew and other parts are in Aramaic.

    Exactly. 2:4b (O king) to 7:28 are Aramaic, the rest is Hebrew. Aramaic uses the same alphabet as Hebrew. It has not been translated into Hebrew in the original language version.

    Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

    Bridgeport, CT USA

  • Room4more
    Room4more Member Posts: 1,730

    Parts of it are in Hebrew and other parts are in Aramaic.

    Exactly. 2:4b (O king) to 7:28 are Aramaic, the rest is Hebrew. Aramaic uses the same alphabet as Hebrew. It has not been translated into Hebrew in the original language version.


    Right, I guess I should have been a little more clearer in my question.

    So, the Aramaic section due to the Babylonian captivity? I could not find anything that was definite…Not really familiar w/the Aramaic alphbet, so when we see it[Aramaic section] in the Hebrew, the words still carry the same meaning?

    [edit:


    Attempts to date the Aramaic used in Daniel have failed, and we do not know whether it was written in Palestine or among the E dispersion. ‘Several scholars today would consider an Eastern (Mesopotamian) origin for the Aramaic part of Daniel … as probable, in agreement with the subject matter, though absolute proof cannot be given within the relative unity of Imperial Aramaic (K. A. Kitchen, in D. J. Wiseman, Some Problems, pp. 78, 79). It has proved equally impossible to argue conclusively from the Heb. of Daniel.(NBD 3rd Edition}

     

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  • Mark Smith
    Mark Smith MVP Posts: 11,791

    so when we see it[Aramaic section] in the Hebrew, the words still carry the same meaning?

    You are seeing Aramaic not Hebrew.

    EDIT: Many of the Aramaic words in Daniel have identically spelled words (same consonants) in Hebrew. Many (perhaps most?) have the same meaning as the corresponding Hebrew word. They are from the same family of languages so identically formed words usually have a similar background and therefore meaning.

    Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

    Bridgeport, CT USA

  • Room4more
    Room4more Member Posts: 1,730

    so when we see it[Aramaic section] in the Hebrew, the words still carry the same meaning?

    You are seeing Aramaic not Hebrew.

    EDIT: Many of the Aramaic words in Daniel have identically spelled words (same consonants) in Hebrew. Many (perhaps most?) have the same meaning as the corresponding Hebrew word. They are from the same family of languages so identically formed words usually have a similar background and therefore meaning.


    Okay this is section of Dan 6.4 אֱדַ֙יִן֙ דָּנִיֵּ֣אל דְּנָ֔ה הֲוָ֣א מִתְנַצַּ֔ח [1]

    Taken from BHS/WTS 4.0, is this Hebrew or Aramaic? It looks Hebrew to me. 

    Same section from AFAT:

          אֱדַיִן דָּנִיֵּאל דְּנָה הֲוָא מִתְנַצַּח

    I see some differences but not in the characters/?


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  • Room4more
    Room4more Member Posts: 1,730

    Just looked in the library and noticed I have the Intro to Aramaic and a few others.....I can see what you are saying....

    Okay I can see I have to do some reading...Thanks....

    edit: these are my current font setting. do I need to change them to see a better display of the Aramaic/Hebrew:

    image

    Thanks....

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  • Mark Smith
    Mark Smith MVP Posts: 11,791

    It looks Hebrew to me. 

    You're learning. It always will.

    Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

    Bridgeport, CT USA

  • Room4more
    Room4more Member Posts: 1,730

    oops I added an edit -did you catch it above..

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  • Mark Smith
    Mark Smith MVP Posts: 11,791

    edit: these are my current font setting. do I need to change them to see a better display of the Aramaic/Hebrew:

    image

    Thanks....

    Those are the ones I am using.

    Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

    Bridgeport, CT USA

  • Room4more
    Room4more Member Posts: 1,730

    Ok, these were the recommended for their resources...Thanks.

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  • Ben
    Ben Member Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭

    What people know today as the Hebrew square script was actually adapted from Aramaic. (Intro to Aramaic has a section on this.)

    So when you say "it looks Hebrew" really we should look everywhere else and say "it looks Aramaic!"

    And for those with solid Hebrew background, it doesn't look the same. There are different vowel and reduction patterns, among other things.

     

    "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

  • Room4more
    Room4more Member Posts: 1,730

    What people know today as the Hebrew square script was actually adapted from Aramaic. (Intro to Aramaic has a section on this.)

    So when you say "it looks Hebrew" really we should look everywhere else and say "it looks Aramaic!"

    And for those with solid Hebrew background, it doesn't look the same. There are different vowel and reduction patterns, among other things.

    Thanks, Ben. When I stated “I see some differences but not in the characters/?” that’s what I was referring to with the comparison to AFAT and the BHS, I did not remember having the Intro to Aramaic in my resources, but I did start reading it today.

    So far it has been interesting, I will have to go slow so that I get the full digestion of what I am reading.

    Thanks again....[by the way your pic looks familiar, have we met?]

     

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  • Mike Childs
    Mike Childs Member Posts: 3,118 ✭✭✭

    It all raises interesting questions.  Was Daniel originally writter in two languages, as we have it today?  If so, what is the significance of the Aramaic sections?

    If not, which language was the original written in, and why was the whole not translated? 

    Of course, the issue of when Dabiel was written is also interesting.

    Worth a lot of study and thought.


    "In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

  • Room4more
    Room4more Member Posts: 1,730

    Thanks, Michael.

    Now these are some of the same questions I have, in doing a quick study I came across interesting writ's along these same lines. This prompted my question of the actual Manuscript. Can we speak in terms of saying that we understand Why, or how come?

    Is it plausible that this was a compellation of the time spent during the Babylonian Captivity, and if so then what is the purpose? What, if any, is the reasoning behind this section having to be in the Aramaic form?

    Bringing us back to the similarity’s of the two Languages, If they really are that similar, can we speak that the translation if any is viably accurate?

    I sure hope this writ is clear……

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  • Room4more
    Room4more Member Posts: 1,730

    In 2:4 we read:

    Contrary to common belief, the point here is not that the wise men (Chaldeans) replied to the king in the Aramaic language, or that this language was uniquely the language of the Chaldeans. It was this view that led in the past to Aramaic being referred to as “Chaldee.” Aramaic was used as a lingua franca during this period; its origins and usage were not restricted to the Babylonians. Rather, this phrase is better understood as an editorial note (cf. NAB) marking the fact that from 2:4b through 7:28 the language of the book shifts from Hebrew to Aramaic. In 8:1, and for the remainder of the book, the language returns to Hebrew. Various views have been advanced to account for this change of language, most of which are unconvincing. Most likely the change in language is a reflection of stages in the transmission history of the book of Daniel.[NET Bible Notes.]

    I remember some years back asking about this, and was told that the book was in Hebrew, which to me did not make sense. I have always had this in the fileing on my brain….

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  • Alan Charles Gielczyk
    Alan Charles Gielczyk Member Posts: 776 ✭✭

    I admire your reading the intro to Aramaic but unless you have mastered Hebrew this probably will not help much. All biblical Aramaic grammars assume at least a year of biblical Hebrew. Much of the difference is grammatical, let me try and give an example. 

    The Hebrew word for king is מֶֽלֶךְ. In Hebrew "the king" would be הַמֶּ֜לֶךְ where הַ at the beginning of the word is the definite article "the." In Aramaic "the king" is מַלְכָּא where א֙ at the end of the word is the definite article "the."

  • Room4more
    Room4more Member Posts: 1,730

    The Hebrew word for king is מֶֽלֶךְ. In Hebrew "the king" would be הַמֶּ֜לֶךְ where הַ at the beginning of the word is the definite article "the." In Aramaic "the king" is מַלְכָּא where א֙ at the end of the word is the definite article "the."


    Thanks Alan,

    Having already read some today, I understand completely what you are saying.

    I have this[pic, I also have another by Tov], would you not consider this to be helpful in my reading…please feel free to point out any errors -Thanks..

    image

    ok, this is all I got at the moment. Look forward to any comments or suggestions that may be lingering out there.......

    [[[edit:  Hey, just wanted you to know I will read the book, but won't spend too much time with it, just want to get a better grip on this. thought i better add this before it got too late and i forget..Thanks. ]]]

     

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  • Gordon
    Gordon Member Posts: 1

    Hello,

    Gordon here.  Just happen onto your discussion of a few years ago, and it raised a question.

    How do we know the original letter Daniel was written in Hebrew AND Aramaic?

    I had never thought of it before.  Today we read copies of copies of copies (and have confidence in their reliability).  But, as some think, maybe Daniel was written all in Aramaic and then transposed.  For that matter, the N.T. book of Hebrews could have been written in Hebrew and transposed into Greek.  I wouldn't know; I just read the translation in the English.


    So, I'd appreciate comments or websites that would address this.  

    How do we know the original Daniel was written in Aramaic AND Greek?


    Thanks,

    Gordon
  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 13,498 ✭✭✭

     So, I'd appreciate comments or websites that would address this.   How do we know the original Daniel was written in Aramaic AND Greek? Thanks, Gordon

    Room4More ... wow, time has passed. He used to drive Matthew up the wall.

    Strictly Logos, the two best:

    https://www.logos.com/product/9569/the-aramaic-of-daniel-in-the-light-of-old-aramaic 

    This looks at the aramaic, as to how old. It does locate some likely old aramaic.

    And:

    https://www.logos.com/product/9568/aramaic-daniel-and-greek-daniel-a-literary-comparison 

    This looks at the greek LXX vs MT hebrew in Daniel to establish a control.. Then looks at the greek vs aramaic sections vs the hebrew control.Particularly the extras that got smoothed out.

    Extra:

    The product descriptions on Logos.com appear to be badly switched, and also incorrect.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Lee
    Lee Member Posts: 2,714

    Hi Gordon

    Welcome to the Logos forum.

    Forum guidelines discourage theological questions because this forum is primarily set up to help us benefit from Logos resources. Theological discussions can be detailed, complex and heated, and there are other forums set up for them.

    I venture a brief answer.

    How do we know the original letter Daniel was written in Hebrew AND Aramaic?  We don't know "for sure" in the sense that we do not have the physical, original letter which is the epistemological basis of the question.

    I would also like to refer you to the Chicago Statements on Biblical Inerrancy. The statements grapple with different facets of the biblical doctrine of inerrancy from the broader evangelical perspective. I have found the statements worth reading and mulling over.

    If you do a search for "inerrancy" https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=inerrancy  some books turn up that are used in seminaries and bible schools. Offhand I don't know enough to recommend any particular title. It's been a while since I delved into such issues.

  • Kiyah
    Kiyah Member Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭✭

    Hi Gordon

    Welcome to the Logos forum.

    Forum guidelines discourage theological questions because this forum is primarily set up to help us benefit from Logos resources. Theological discussions can be detailed, complex and heated, and there are other forums set up for them.

    I venture a brief answer.

    How do we know the original letter Daniel was written in Hebrew AND Aramaic?  We don't know "for sure" in the sense that we do not have the physical, original letter which is the epistemological basis of the question.

    I would also like to refer you to the Chicago Statements on Biblical Inerrancy. The statements grapple with different facets of the biblical doctrine of inerrancy from the broader evangelical perspective. I have found the statements worth reading and mulling over.

    If you do a search for "inerrancy" https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=inerrancy  some books turn up that are used in seminaries and bible schools. Offhand I don't know enough to recommend any particular title. It's been a while since I delved into such issues.

    I think Gordon's question relates more to textual transmission history than theology proper. I don't think there's a violation of forum rules here. Most exegetical/critical commentaries will include a discussion on the text and composition of the biblical book in question. I would imagine an in-depth scholarly commentary on Daniel will have a discussion about the composition of the book of Daniel. Also, I'm sure the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary and other in-depth bible dictionaries will discuss this too.

    My suggestion would be to run a Topic Guide on the Book of Daniel and read the bible dictionary entries about it. Even if they don't answer all your questions they'll have a bibliography you can use to find more resources on the topic.

    (Granted, as to whether this question impacts one's view of the reliability of scripture, one would have to answer that for themselves according to their own doctrinal commitments.) But I see no issue in asking a question about the textual history of a biblical book in the forums. That's the power of the software, to be able to research questions such as this one.

  • Lee
    Lee Member Posts: 2,714

    I think Gordon's question relates more to textual transmission history than theology proper. I don't think there's a violation of forum rules here.

    I appreciate your comments. I do need to clarify that I certainly did not intend to signal a "violation of forum rules" (your term). Only guidelines are laid down. There are grey areas, and hopefully forum users can with wisdom and discretion steer the flow back into Logos resources.

    I touched on inerrancy because Gordon had raised a question about Daniel, and also Hebrews. That led me to think that he may be interested in more than the Book of Daniel.

  • Kiyah
    Kiyah Member Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭✭

    I think Gordon's question relates more to textual transmission history than theology proper. I don't think there's a violation of forum rules here.

    I appreciate your comments. I do need to clarify that I certainly did not intend to signal a "violation of forum rules" (your term). Only guidelines are laid down. There are grey areas, and hopefully forum users can with wisdom and discretion steer the flow back into Logos resources.

    I touched on inerrancy because Gordon had raised a question about Daniel, and also Hebrews. That led me to think that he may be interested in more than the Book of Daniel.

    That's fair. I just wasn't sure whether or not you were implying that his question wasn't appropriate for the forums. But I also wanted to suggest various ways and resources to learn about the Book of Daniel itself. I interpreted his question as having two layers: How do we know what language the book was originally written in and what are the implications scripture-wise of the answer to that question? I just didn't want to gloss over the first layer of his question.

    Although I don't think we can ever be completely sure of anything, I do think there are concrete things that we can know to a reasonable extent by examining the available data, realizing that any conclusions we or scholars draw are provisional. But I just want to encourage Christians to not be afraid of scholarship, even scholarship that some may have labeled "liberal," but to be open to examining all of the available evidence with regard to these questions and draw their own conclusions, prayerfully and in faith of course.