Logos Staff: A Story to Give you something to think about
Comments
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MJ. Smith said:
I save the results as a Passage List and go to a standard Bible search. I limit my search to the Passage List.
I love your tips, MJ! This is cool.
Do you consider this tip a power-user technique? Would a "newish" user think of (making then) searching a passage list?
If FL could simplify everything, so a 4-step process like this could be done in a couple of steps, it might make it more memorable.
It's not that the software can't do something. It's that we need to recall the myriad of techniques, features, and tools available to us.
Speaking personally, Bible Browser is out-of-sight, thus out-of-mind for me. It would make searching easier, yet when I consider "search," my thought is "click search icon to open search bar," not "open Tools and select Bible Browser."
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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PetahChristian said:
If FL could simplify everything, so a 4-step process like this could be done in a couple of steps, it might make it more memorable.
It's not that the software can't do something. It's that we need to recall the myriad of techniques, features, and tools available to us.
SUGGESTION: A quick upgrade to the Search function ... as per another thread
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DAL said:Cynthia in Florida said:Lee said:
Thanks Cynthia, for voicing out some of my thoughts.
I struggle most with the search functions. It's just cryptic. The B company nailed it.
Lee: You and me both! It is very frustrating...and as you said, cryptic. Of all my frustrations in learning Logos, this is at the top of the list.
I thought you purchased the Advance Search video: https://www.logos.com/product/51655/verbum-advanced-search-training which came out a good while ago.
Bottom line, my last two cents. FL could provide the training, but if people don’t put in the time to learn then it’s all for naught. The point, though, Logos needs to be simplified a bit more. Not dumbed down, but simplified. And we all need to keep in mind that there is a learning curve for everything — even the simple things.
DAL
DAL: I did purchase the training, along with MP’s manuals/videos and LearnLogos training as well. I watched Mark’s unofficial videos and have watched every single Logos training video. I have used the wiki site, screen shot and saved MP’s training snippets. You name it, it it’s out there, I’ve read it. I have spent COUNTLESS hours in “training.” So, to say that if people don’t put in the time to learn then it’s all for naught is a moot point, nor is it the main point of this thread, although it proves my point. The point here, as per my original post, is that while I personally have done that, most average users won’t nor can’t because of time/money, nor should they have to. While I understand that all software requires SOME training, it shouldn’t be SO MUCH TRAINING just to use the program for what should be (in the user’s mind) the most basic functions. The ease of use is not the responsibility of the user, but the developer. It shouldn’t fall on the user that they don’t know what is a dataset string, that they need a dataset string, that they need the correctly ordered dataset string, just to search something in their library. So in my mind, this isn’t about FL offering MORE training. It’s about FL making the software more intuitive and then offering short video snippets as hotkeys for those functions that need some explaining.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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MJ. Smith said:PetahChristian said:
If FL could simplify everything, so a 4-step process like this could be done in a couple of steps, it might make it more memorable.
It's not that the software can't do something. It's that we need to recall the myriad of techniques, features, and tools available to us.
SUGGESTION: A quick upgrade to the Search function ... as per another thread
Petah and MJ: This is WONDERFUL! Thank you.
MJ, that search trick is fantastic. Like Petah, I never would have thought to do that, but I’m saving that. Thanks for all you contribute!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
I did purchase the training, along with MP’s manuals/videos and LearnLogos training as well. I watched Mark’s unofficial videos and have watched every single Logos training video. I have used the wiki site, screen shot and saved MP’s training snippets. You name it, it it’s out there, I’ve read it. I have spent COUNTLESS hours in “training.” So, to say that if people don’t put in the time to learn then it’s all for naught is a moot point, nor is it the main point of this thread, although it proves my point. The point here, as per my original post, is that while I personally have done that, most average users won’t nor can’t because of time/money, nor should they have to. While I understand that all software requires SOME training, it shouldn’t be SO MUCH TRAINING just to use the program for what should be (in the user’s mind) the most basic functions. The ease of use is not the responsibility of the user, but the developer. It shouldn’t fall on the user that they don’t know what is a dataset string, that they need a dataset string, that they need the correctly ordered dataset string, just to search something in their library. So in my mind, this isn’t about FL offering MORE training. It’s about FL making the software more intuitive and then offering short video snippets as hotkeys for those functions that need some explaining.
BINGO!! Thank you and well stated! But as MJ said "is it possible?" Maybe FL isn't able, at this time, to tame the monster they have created. It would be reassuring though if we heard directly from FL some specifics of what they are doing and trying in order to solve this problem, knowing how they are working on it, rather than asking users like us how to fix it or spend more and more unproductive time and money on learning how to use it. That, at least for me, would be somewhat reassuring that they are seriously working on it. But, there is mostly only silence so far.
I love the software when it works for me,but hate it when I have to work for it.[:D]
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Bill said:
BINGO!! Thank you and well stated! But as MJ said "is it possible?" Maybe FL isn't able, at this time, to tame the monster they have created. It would be reassuring though if we heard directly from FL some specifics of what they are doing and trying in order to solve this problem, knowing how they are working on it, rather than asking users like us how to fix it or spend more and more unproductive time and money on learning how to use it. That, at least for me, would be somewhat reassuring that they are seriously working on it. But, there is mostly only silence so far.
I love the software when it works for me,but hate it when I have to work for it
I agree with your statements, Bill...………….. To modify a statement that's out there: simp[lify] my ride, so I can get it in gear. I don't have to build the trani, just get in and steer.
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MJ. Smith said:
Denise, Denise, Denise ...
I'm sorry but there's only two of me. Smiling.
Frankly (and no intent to disparage FL), I've given up on most of Logos. I make heavy use of linked resources (but miss a leader link). CitedBy is why I'd never give up Logos. And re-titling/tagging in the library. Multiview is nice for commentaries.
Searches are silly. You can't group relative to your tags or collections. I don't waste time on the syntax ... easier to use a control-F the hard way. And searches take forever (they take so much time formatting results so poorly). Katie bar the door if a major mistake ... I have to kill the program ... no interupts. This after 10 years.
When L5 came out, I 'thought' FL had a free field to take over Bible software. But years later, a feature here, another there. Sleepy times at Bellingham High. No apparent strategy. Then the web repeats the slumbering design. Opportunities missed, or a different vision.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Logos does themselves a disservice by not providing a comprehensive training manual or on-line training with the product. It is a robust, powerful product. I have been using it since 2009 and use it every day. The learning curve is steep and growing as new tagging, features, and resources are added. The way to address the learning curve is through training.
I have been in a position to not only invest in Logos and my Logos library, but also in training. Not everyone is so fortunate. I think most have to make choices between investing in Logos and investing in training. If the product came with a great user manual or video training they would address the learning curve, expand their market, and encourage current users to expand their libraries in order to take better advantage of the platform.
Just sayin,
Dan
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Dan Starcevich said:
on-line training with the produc
I assume you are aware of their training videos? Ask for videos in areas you think are lacking - there's a bunch of people who might have time to catch their breath it we don't keep requests coming.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I am. they are definitely a step in the right direction. I think Faithlife needs to embrace this more and more. Particularly as the product grows in sophistication.
I spent thirty years developing software and systems and the key to a successful delivery and adoption was clear, comprehensive, task focused user training. If they want the market to expand they need to make it as easy as possible for users to get their money's worth out of the investment.
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Cynthia in Florida said:
So in my mind, this isn’t about FL offering MORE training. It’s about FL making the software more intuitive
YES, YES, and YES!
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This has been a needed discussion and I'm so thankful for all the wonderful insightful replies. I've been with Logos since the Oak Harbor days and have always marveled on how useful and powerful the Logos program is. Yet as the Logos program got more complicated and comprehensive I knew I wasn't using the program to it's full potential. Since there was limited documentation at the time for all the features, I felt I needed to attend a few Logos Camps to try to learn how to use the software I had owned for years. I wasn't disappointed but I did come away from those seminars saying to myself, "There was no way I could have found out how to use this program on my own." Even today I hardly do any searches because I just don't have the time to figure it all out. Fortunately I know my library well enough that I can get what I need but I do know I might be missing a few gems. The same with collections, I really couldn't figure out the code so I just grouped the resources manually according to my system. I know I'm missing many resources but I don't know how to find the rest.
I recommend Logos all the time and I'm hopeful that this tremendous tool can truly be discovered for the powerful ministry tool it is. A definite help with the learning curve would encourage even longtime users!
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Scot Wright said:
Even today I hardly do any searches because I just don't have the time to figure it all out. Fortunately I know my library well enough that I can get what I need but I do know I might be missing a few gems. The same with collections, I really couldn't figure out the code so I just grouped the resources manually according to my system.
Once again I'd like to express my thanks to another loyal user for speaking what's on my mind.
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MJ. Smith said:
The difference in our usage is exactly what makes Faithlife's job hellacious.
Bingo.
One-size-fits-all works for stretch clothing, but not so well for software trying to satisfy queries of such a huge and multi-faceted matrix of data to users of varying usage wants/needs. At one end of the usage spectrum are those who are trying to get just a sip from the high pressure gusher that is Logos, and at the other end are those who can't get enough. What a challenge!
I have always thought that Logos should incorporate more of a modular design that begins with the simplest of UIs and tools (i.e., keep all of the whiz-bang, advanced features out of sight). Then, if needed or wanted, more modules/tools of increasing complexity could be enabled by the user. Let the software "grow" to a level and at a pace as defined by the user.
Of course, I am not a developer and maybe what I envision is beyond economic and/or software reality.
[mo] <-- just my two cents
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Dan Starcevich said:
Logos does themselves a disservice by not providing a comprehensive training manual or on-line training with the product.
Curious about your opinion of => https://www.logos.com/bible-study-training that uses free Mobile Ed course => LT271: Study the Bible with Logos: Jonah 1
What on-line training content should be added to => https://www.logos.com/logos-pro ?
How could Help resource => https://ref.ly/logosres/logos4help?hw=Searching be helpfully improved ? e.g. include dataset resource documentation links. Update "How To" Question "How do I find my Logos Mac files in the Mavericks and Yosemite operating systems?" to "How do I find my Logos files using the Mac operating systems?" (Older Mavericks and Yosemite versions of OS X are no longer supported)
What additional "How To" questions would be appreciated ? (e.g. some tips from power users: MJ, Mark, Dave, ...)
Challenge for comprehensive training is including creative ways of using Logos/Verbum.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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How could Help resource => https://ref.ly/logosres/logos4help?hw=Searching be helpfully improved ?
One suggestion. It would be instructive if the Help Resource would hyperlink to a ready-made example setup within Logos. This would be especially helpful for some of the more advanced searches.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Although I did push at some point for more documentation -- and indeed good documentation should always be a given -- I think the fundamental issue is not there. I don't think I am a newbie but my primary problem is that Logos is simply not easy to use. I use Logos every single day and I use it a lot. But there are stages in my research when I tend to use certain functionalities rather than others. I find that when I get back to doing a complex something I knew how to do before, I have forgotten the details that differentiate between working and not working. Sure, I can go and find out again whether in documentation or on the forum, but that's time-consuming and frustrating.
There have been talks for quite a while of a graphical build your search UI that would take the arcane out of complex searches. A number of tools have come out that go in that direction (concordance, browser, etc). However, these are more tools scattered all over the place, not a change in the way the software as a whole functions. There are still times when I go "Wait, is that the concordance or Bible browser I should use here? What's the difference already?"
So, the point I am making is that more and more and more in some ways adds to the problem. Documentation itself is scattered and finding what you need is hit and miss (help file, forums, wiki). I would compare using Logos to using Linux as opposed to the easier to get to what you want Operating Systems. I understand that Logos is complex and advanced. Invest in making the complex and advanced more accessible. Adding more of the same will not solve the problem. Stop adding and focus instead on improving what's there.
I have also advocated functionality similar to "tell me what you want to do" in Microsoft Office. Another type is the Siri/OK Google/Cortana approach (although I and I assume others would want text rather voice-based searches). I have not had much response to this suggestion. An example would be "I want to search for wisdom and folly in Wisdom of Solomon". Options presented could be: do you want to search for 'wisdom AND folly,' 'wisdom OR folly' or the phrase "wisdom and folly"? Pick, click, boom!
Now of course this would mean in the first instance that Logos would fix its crawling auto-populating functionality. A slow unresponsive interactive help would not be good.
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Francis said:
Although I did push at some point for more documentation -- and indeed good documentation should always be a given -- I think the fundamental issue is not there. I don't think I am a newbie but my primary problem is that Logos is simply not easy to use. I use Logos every single day and I use it a lot. But there are stages in my research when I tend to use certain functionalities rather than others. I find that when I get back to doing a complex something I knew how to do before, I have forgotten the details that differentiate between working and not working. Sure, I can go and find out again whether in documentation or on the forum, but that's time-consuming and frustrating.
There have been talks for quite a while of a graphical build your search UI that would take the arcane out of complex searches. A number of tools have come out that go in that direction (concordance, browser, etc). However, these are more tools scattered all over the place, not a change in the way the software as a whole functions. There are still times when I go "Wait, is that the concordance or Bible browser I should use here? What's the difference already?"
So, the point I am making is that more and more and more in some ways adds to the problem. Documentation itself is scattered and finding what you need is hit and miss (help file, forums, wiki). I would compare using Logos to using Linux as opposed to the easier to get to what you want Operating Systems. I understand that Logos is complex and advanced. Invest in making the complex and advanced more accessible. Adding more of the same will not solve the problem. Stop adding and focus instead on improving what's there.
I have also advocated functionality similar to "tell me what you want to do" in Microsoft Office. Another type is the Siri/OK Google/Cortana approach (although I and I assume others would want text rather voice-based searches). I have not had much response to this suggestion. An example would be "I want to search for wisdom and folly in Wisdom of Solomon". Options presented could be: do you want to search for 'wisdom AND folly,' 'wisdom OR folly' or the phrase "wisdom and folly"? Pick, click, boom!
Now of course this would mean in the first instance that Logos would fix its crawling auto-populating functionality. A slow unresponsive interactive help would not be good.
Francis: I swear, I could have written this entire post. EVERYTHING you said applies to me. I do figure out (usually by asking on here or searching wiki or watching a video) how to do complex things with Logos, think how awesome it is, screen shot it, and tuck it away in a help file. But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again. I could go on each point above and give examples of how this applies to me, but I’m thinking that if you use Logos regularly and I use Logos regularly and we both have the same experience, then there are plenty of those who are users (but not “power users” who have understanding of how operations work “under the hood”) who, like us, are in the same boat.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Francis said:
There have been talks for quite a while of a graphical build your search UI
I for one support this idea wholeheartedly. But, this too I think misses the point made by Cynthia. If I understand her correctly what she is asking for is an entirely different approach to the one Logos currently uses. One accessible to the average Bible student with no prior experience with the software. This to me argues for a two-tier approach to the software.
Francis said:Although I did push at some point for more documentation -- and indeed good documentation should always be a given -- I think the fundamental issue is not there. I don't think I am a newbie but my primary problem is that Logos is simply not easy to use. I find that when I get back to doing a complex something I knew how to do before, I have forgotten the details that differentiate between working and not working. Sure, I can go and find out again whether in documentation or on the forum, but that's time-consuming and frustrating.
Your experience is probably common and certainly, I agree that Search is frustratingly difficult to recall and reproduce outcomes. Better documentation and approaches that streamline the building of Advanced Searches like the Context Menu. Better and more accessible documentation would improve the experience here. I don't know maybe what I'm saying is that I want a better system for the recording complex Searches. And this could be found in a better and more thorough documentation.
In a way, I believe we are being a little fickle when we ask for more powerful Searches but, we want a simple approach to get this information. The Morph Query is graphical but requires some knowledge to use effectively. No matter what approach is adopted there will be a learning curve.
Francis said:Now of course this would mean in the first instance that Logos would fix its crawling auto-populating functionality. A slow unresponsive interactive help would not be good.
In the Make an L8 Wishlist thread I advocate early for a speeded-up Logos. I can do no less here. Agree, agree, agree.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Cynthia in Florida said:
But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again.
I don't want to divert attention away from the discussion or to suggest this is a solution to it!
But I just wanted to flag that you can store a Search as a Favorite - simply drag the Search tab to a Favorites folder. That way they are accessible again within the software if you want to reuse them or use them as a basis for a similar search.
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Graham Criddle said:Cynthia in Florida said:
But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again.
I don't want to divert attention away from the discussion or to suggest this is a solution to it!
But I just wanted to flag that you can store a Search as a Favorite - simply drag the Search tab to a Favorites folder. That way they are accessible again within the software if you want to reuse them or use them as a basis for a similar search.
Like Graham I don't want to derail the good discussion but Graham's post highlighted an aspect that is the symptom of the larger problem. I've been using Logos for over twenty years and I would never have known I could save a search like that. Where do you find these gems? I would have to say that most of the operations that I have learned about Logos have come from generous power users like Graham than any where else.
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Graham Criddle said:Cynthia in Florida said:
But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again.
I don't want to divert attention away from the discussion or to suggest this is a solution to it!
But I just wanted to flag that you can store a Search as a Favorite - simply drag the Search tab to a Favorites folder. That way they are accessible again within the software if you want to reuse them or use them as a basis for a similar search.
Graham! Thanks very much for this. I didn't know this...I'm sure I learned it somewhere in training but... [^o)]
It's not diverting attention. I think it's showing what would be so beneficial to the program. How could I ever have known that? Firstly, how could I have known HOW to do it the first time...I couldn't. I had to go and hunt around to figure it out. Then, how could I have known I could store the search? Situations such as this are examples of where the program needs to be more intuitive.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Scot Wright said:Graham Criddle said:Cynthia in Florida said:
But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again.
I don't want to divert attention away from the discussion or to suggest this is a solution to it!
But I just wanted to flag that you can store a Search as a Favorite - simply drag the Search tab to a Favorites folder. That way they are accessible again within the software if you want to reuse them or use them as a basis for a similar search.
Like Graham I don't want to derail the good discussion but Graham's post highlighted an aspect that is the symptom of the larger problem. I've been using Logos for over twenty years and I would never have known I could save a search like that. Where do you find these gems? I would have to say that most of the operations that I have learned about Logos have come from generous power users like Graham than any where else.
I responded above before I even read your post. Great minds think alike. Or, maybe it's simple minds think alike! LOL
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Scot Wright said:
I would never have known I could save a search like that. Where do you find these gems?
The help file entry on Favorites has:
"Save a favorite article, passage, search result, person, place, or thing, document, etc. so you can find them again easily"
and then provides some guidance on how to do this.
But - and this goes back to Cynthia's point about intuitiveness - unless you knew it could do that, and were wanting to remind yourself how, it is unlikely that you would look for it there!
How much would having a "Save search string to Favorites" option in the search panel icon help with this - with this opening the Favorites menu allowing you to specify which folder to put it in?
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Francis said:
I find that when I get back to doing a complex something I knew how to do before, I have forgotten the details that differentiate between working and not working.
You mean it is not just me!! That is one reason why we need a superb help file system with fuzzy search leading to short help/teaching nuggets. However good the training is or even how intuitive Logos becomes, some of us (OK many of us) will still have a senior moment. and need access to a quick reminder.
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Graham Criddle said:
But - and this goes back to Cynthia's point about intuitiveness - unless you knew it could do that, and were wanting to remind yourself how, it is unlikely that you would look for it there!
How much would having a "Save search string to Favorites" option in the search panel icon help with this - with this opening the Favorites menu allowing you to specify which folder to put it in?
Graham: This genuinely a question. Would that be same as me saying that when something requires a little more explaining, there should be a hotkey?" I think that's what I'm meaning, but in reading this thread, I see that there are many technical phrases that I don't know what they mean, or that I might be using erroneously.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
Would that be same as me saying that when something requires a little more explaining, there should be a hotkey?"
No - assuming you mean that there should be a single keyboard key as a shortcut. Graham means there should be an option in the Search panel menu (when you click on the Search icon).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Graham Criddle said:Cynthia in Florida said:
But then I come back to it later and forget, because I don’t use it that often, so I have to start all over again.
I don't want to divert attention away from the discussion or to suggest this is a solution to it!
But I just wanted to flag that you can store a Search as a Favorite - simply drag the Search tab to a Favorites folder. That way they are accessible again within the software if you want to reuse them or use them as a basis for a similar search.
Add me to the list of people that didn't realize that. My problem is that, even after I learn something like that, I often forget. [:S] This growing thread is surely striking a cord.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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When even MVPs stumble, what more mere mortals like me?
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I am curious how Logos Assistant and Bible Browser are being received as they are definitely efforts to make Logos more friendly at the entry level. Are they working? Do they show something about the direction Logos should move?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Lee said:
When even MVPs stumble, what more mere mortals like me?
I suspect that the average MVP's CPU is old, slow, worn and needs an upgrade ... I know my brain is not as fast or reliable as it used to be ... and I'm getting a lot of memory access errors and the aural/visual inputs are less acute. :-)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bruce Dunning said:
My problem is that, even after I learn something like that, I often forget.
This growing thread is surely striking a cord.even if it is only that we forget very easily!!
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Dave Hooton said:Cynthia in Florida said:
Would that be same as me saying that when something requires a little more explaining, there should be a hotkey?"
No - assuming you mean that there should be a single keyboard key as a shortcut. Graham means there should be an option in the Search panel menu (when you click on the Search icon).
okay, got it. Thanks For explaining.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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This to me is an example of a problem. Everyone keeps talking on here about how Bible Browser is a step in the right direction for Logos trying to make things easier.
I went over look at something referenced on this thread and came across this. At the top of the screen it says, “Bible study has never been easier.” Then, under training videos, look at what it says under Bible Browser.
You know what I say about that? I’ll tell you what.
There is nothing about that description that tells the average user who knows nothing about computer techie jargon what that can do FOR ME. Instead, it again uses techie terms that assumes the user has a clue what is “rich data tagging.” I know that sounds a bit nitpicking but coming back to my original point, even the very description of a tool that’s supposed to make things easier for me uses language that most end users have no clue what it means.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Hi Cynthia
Cynthia in Florida said:I went over look at something referenced on this thread and came across this. At the top of the screen it says, “Bible study has never been easier.” Then, under training videos, look at what it says under Bible Browser.
Where are you looking when you see this?
I don't see it, and the information on the training page for the Bible Browser - https://www.logos.com/logos-pro/bible-browser - does seem to describe what it does, what it provides and some of its benefits.
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Oops, Faithlife Assistant [:$] NEW Logos Now Feature: Faithlife Assistant see https://wiki.logos.com/Faithlife_Assistant_Commands for a view of its capabilities. I suspect extensions are dependent on use and suggestions.Francis said:I don't know what the "Logos Assistant" refers to
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Oops, Faithlife Assistant
NEW Logos Now Feature: Faithlife Assistant see https://wiki.logos.com/Faithlife_Assistant_Commands for a view of its capabilities. I suspect extensions are dependent on use and suggestions.It is a step in the direction of the "tell me what you want to do" suggestion I had made. I looked at the examples under "search" however and at this point, it is very rudimentary and limited. It might help people who really have no clue how to "search for Sishak in the ESV" but, as it appears from the listed examples, does nothing for the more advanced needs that have been discussed here which is more like "search for "Sishak" in DSS within Milestone blahblahblah".
Hopefully the underlying technology will run against an exhaustive database of commands within the software and not depend on enabling each single one within the tool.
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Graham Criddle said:
Hi Cynthia
Cynthia in Florida said:I went over look at something referenced on this thread and came across this. At the top of the screen it says, “Bible study has never been easier.” Then, under training videos, look at what it says under Bible Browser.
Where are you looking when you see this?
I don't see it, and the information on the training page for the Bible Browser - https://www.logos.com/logos-pro/bible-browser - does seem to describe what it does, what it provides and some of its benefits.
Graham: It’s here. https://www.logos.com/features
It’s under ”New Top Features”
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Francis said:MJ. Smith said:
Oops, Faithlife Assistant
NEW Logos Now Feature: Faithlife Assistant see https://wiki.logos.com/Faithlife_Assistant_Commands for a view of its capabilities. I suspect extensions are dependent on use and suggestions.It is a step in the direction of the "tell me what you want to do" suggestion I had made. I looked at the examples under "search" however and at this point, it is very rudimentary and limited. It might help people who really have no clue how to "search for Sishak in the ESV" but, as it appears from the listed examples, does nothing for the more advanced needs that have been discussed here which is more like "search for "Sishak" in DSS within Milestone blahblahblah".
Hopefully the underlying technology will run against an exhaustive database of commands within the software and not depend on enabling each single one within the tool.
MJ: That’s a fantastic question. I agree with Francis that it’s a step in the right direction, but for the most part, it becomes useless rather quickly because it is so very basic, it’s almost too basic (Yes...can you believe I’m saying that?). However, for the first time ever user, it would help, but I don’t think it would entice them for more. Those are results you could get from google. (Edited to add this: I know I’ve said that a couple of times, that a user can get a result from google, but the reason I say that is because if the potential purchaser of Logos can’t see something cool that entices them to say, “Okay, that’s worth purchasing the software to me,” then that doesn’t do them any good and it doesn’t do FL any good. I’m not so ignorant as to think that FL doesn’t need to make money. So, how can the new potential purchaser be enticed to purchase Logos and upgrades while FL makes money? That’s the million dollar question that, I believe, requires some change and careful research on the part of FL.)
You know, I hope I’m not sounding ungrateful or nitpicky or ...I don’t even know the word. I’m just hoping that change comes in a way that makes the software more intuitive. so that more people can actually use it.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
Graham: It’s here. https://www.logos.com/features
It’s under ”New Top Features”
Thanks Cynthia.
Looking at it I think that would work for me - even if I was not familiar with the software, in that it would something of interest and the "Learn more" link gives a lot more information.
But that doesn't mean it would work for everyone[:)]
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MJ. Smith said:
I am curious how Logos Assistant and Bible Browser are being received as they are definitely efforts to make Logos more friendly at the entry level. Are they working? Do they show something about the direction Logos should move?
I do see these as attempts to help, but they are not integrated together and all function differently,as add-ins if you will. Part of the problem with using any of these "tools" for me is they are scattered, or at least segregated from the search tool itself, out of sight out of mind. First you have to remember they exist, then find them, then remember or figure out which one to use.Then there is the additional learning curve for each tool. If they could all be blended together and function somewhat similarly inside the search menu I think would be helpful.
Also, the same problem exists with help/training. we have the help menu, the wiki, the Logos pro videos,etc. It would be tremendously helpful to blend these all together in one place(preferably within the program), with a fuzzy search feature to quickly find the help I want,which was already mentioned in this thread. Even including Morris Proctor's manuals and videos could be incorporated when purchased.
I also like the idea that is briefly mention here and expanded on in the logos 8 wishlist thread about a search builder tool.
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Francis said:MJ. Smith said:
Oops, Faithlife Assistant
NEW Logos Now Feature: Faithlife Assistant see https://wiki.logos.com/Faithlife_Assistant_Commands for a view of its capabilities. I suspect extensions are dependent on use and suggestions.It is a step in the direction of the "tell me what you want to do" suggestion I had made. I looked at the examples under "search" however and at this point, it is very rudimentary and limited.
I played around with FA a good bit when it was first released and I agree it is underwhelming as an separate utility. If it were to replace the GO box, it would be an awesome terrific powerful upgrade. But advertising it as it is as an assistant begs comparison to things like Cortana, Alexa, Siri, Google, which it is not or was not at the last time I tried it.
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Randy W. Sims said:Francis said:MJ. Smith said:
Oops, Faithlife Assistant
NEW Logos Now Feature: Faithlife Assistant see https://wiki.logos.com/Faithlife_Assistant_Commands for a view of its capabilities. I suspect extensions are dependent on use and suggestions.It is a step in the direction of the "tell me what you want to do" suggestion I had made. I looked at the examples under "search" however and at this point, it is very rudimentary and limited.
I played around with FA a good bit when it was first released and I agree it is underwhelming as an separate utility. If it were to replace the GO box, it would be an awesome terrific powerful upgrade. But advertising it as it is as an assistant begs comparison to things like Cortana, Alexa, Siri, Google, which it is not or was not at the last time I tried it.
Randy: excellent suggestion. Again, I have no idea what it would take to make things like this happen, but it’s a great idea.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Jonathan Ray said:
1) LOGOS is slow. The indexing process makes my laptop's fans spin so hard I almost worry the machine might short circuit. It's borderline unusable for a slower machine. I try to onboard friends and family onto LOGOS all the time, and this is a major problem.
[Y]
Jonathan Ray said:2) The Hebrew font in the interlinear pane is simply unreadable. I have 20/20 vision but cannot decipher the vowel pointing and sometimes even the letters themselves. I look at this as a bug in the software and can't understand how this has not been resolved, especially because this has been a known issue for Mac users for years.
[Y]
Amen and Amen!!! I have given up asking for the Hebrew font to be able to be increased for Mac users. It makes the Hebrew interlinear all but unusable for me. And the indexing uses up so much hard drive space that I get constant warnings that I'm out of hard drive space while it's indexing and my Mac will start closing programs I'm using. Please fix these two issues that impact me almost daily.
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Bill said:MJ. Smith said:
I am curious how Logos Assistant and Bible Browser are being received as they are definitely efforts to make Logos more friendly at the entry level. Are they working? Do they show something about the direction Logos should move?
I do see these as attempts to help, but they are not integrated together and all function differently,as add-ins if you will. Part of the problem with using any of these "tools" for me is they are scattered, or at least segregated from the search tool itself, out of sight out of mind. First you have to remember they exist, then find them, then remember or figure out which one to use.Then there is the additional learning curve for each tool. If they could all be blended together and function somewhat similarly inside the search menu I think would be helpful.
Also, the same problem exists with help/training. we have the help menu, the wiki, the Logos pro videos,etc. It would be tremendously helpful to blend these all together in one place(preferably within the program), with a fuzzy search feature to quickly find the help I want,which was already mentioned in this thread. Even including Morris Proctor's manuals and videos could be incorporated when purchased.
I also like the idea that is briefly mention here and expanded on in the logos 8 wishlist thread about a search builder tool.
Bill, I completely agree, which makes the “tools” not really working for us. I think that’s what I was meaning when I referenced a hotkey, but apparently I was using the wrong term. Let me give you an incredibly basic example of what I mean. Keep in mind this example is not based off of knowledge the user should know, but it assumes they don’t know how to use the program.
Let’s say I am reading my Bible and I want to open up other Bibles so I can compare the translations. Rather than having to go find the text comparison, there should be an OBVIOUS button or key that is consistent across the entire program where I can click on that and say something like “I want to compare Bible text.” The program can then launch the text comparison tool and bring it into my window. There should then be a pop up or something like that that says, “choose your versions to compare and click enter” or something like that.
Now, that’s on the more basic level. When the user grows into the program, I’m not saying there has to be as much handholding, so there should be an option to turn off help. There also can be a line in the pop up that says something like “to learn more of what this powerful tool can do, click here“ and it launches a video or a tutorial or something that explains how to use the tool, STEP BY STEP, on a more advanced level, without too much technical jargon. The problem right now is that the tools are all over the place, help is all over the place, and neither are connected to the resources I would use them for. I have to go HUNTING for them, and that is incredibly frustrating, especially when I forget how I did something and months later, I have to go hunt all over again.
I understand thsee suggestions may be a bit out there, and again, I have no clue what something like that would take to create, but a girl can dream, right?
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:Randy W. Sims said:Francis said:MJ. Smith said:
Oops, Faithlife Assistant
NEW Logos Now Feature: Faithlife Assistant see https://wiki.logos.com/Faithlife_Assistant_Commands for a view of its capabilities. I suspect extensions are dependent on use and suggestions.It is a step in the direction of the "tell me what you want to do" suggestion I had made. I looked at the examples under "search" however and at this point, it is very rudimentary and limited.
I played around with FA a good bit when it was first released and I agree it is underwhelming as an separate utility. If it were to replace the GO box, it would be an awesome terrific powerful upgrade. But advertising it as it is as an assistant begs comparison to things like Cortana, Alexa, Siri, Google, which it is not or was not at the last time I tried it.
Randy: excellent suggestion. Again, I have no idea what it would take to make things like this happen, but it’s a great idea.
Actually, IIRC, this was mentioned as one of their possible goals. I just hope it makes it to L8 in that form.
BTW, I said GO box, but meant Command box. Always on screen and avail. There is no need for GO and improved Command box.
Great thread. I haven't read it all yet. Kind of skipped around. Logos could definitely be improved in many ways. A graphical search builder is extremely feasible and reasonable, and would be high on that list. But on the other Logos is a complex software doing lots of complex things and there is a limit to how much you can simplify without taking away. There is also the target audience to consider. I may be wrong but I would expect the average layperson/non-academic/non-professional/etc. to gravitate more toward the web app and/or the mobile app. If that is the case, and that is an IF, there is less value or at least a limit on how much effort or work is done to "simplify" Logos while more effort should be given to making sure the web & mobile app are suitable for that audience. There is still MUCH that can be reasonably be expected. But there may be limits. I don't know. Just considering...
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Hi Cynthia
Cynthia in Florida said:Let’s say I am reading my Bible and I want to open up other Bibles so I can compare the translations. Rather than having to go find the text comparison, there should be an OBVIOUS button or key that is consistent across the entire program where I can click on that and say something like “I want to compare Bible text.” The program can then launch the text comparison tool and bring it into my window. There should then be a pop up or something like that that says, “choose your versions to compare and click enter” or something like that.
Interesting example.
So for the "obvious button" do you mean something like I am showing below?
This is in the "shortcut bar" which we - as users - can populate with tools, resources, etc (and we can change the text that appears to the right of the icon and change the icon itself by right-clicking on it as shown below
If, for the "guided mode" you are advocating, some of these shortcut buttons were prepopulated might that go someway towards helping with this?
And then the challenge would be working out which things need to be pre-populated!
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