How do I get a refund?

About a week after I installed L4 I called Logos to ask for a refund. After being put on hold for 30 minutes I hung up. I called again and asked for sales. Instant connection. I explained what happened and asked how I should proceed. I was told that I would have to call and wait, but not to worry because they were not that strict about the 30-day time limit. I'm not calling customer noservice and waiting 30 minutes again.

I sent an email to support@logos.com asking how to proceed with getting a refund on 2/18. This is 2/28, and there's been no response yet.

I never would have bought L4 if I had known I could I could have downloaded it for free. I wasn't interested in the resource upgrade, but I was very interested in getting away from the Windows 95 quality of L3. So I did what I thought I had to do.

Can someone from Logos please let me know what to do? Sorry for making this public, but you've left me no choice.

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MJ. Smith

Can someone from Logos please let me know what to do?

What is probably the most effective is to call customer service, wait as long as necessary, and politely ask for a refund. WWJD. I apologize for being so blunt but the tone of your post made me believe this was the tone to which you would respond.

Mark Smith

David, I suspect even if someone from Logos had time to respond here, they might still tell you to call (and wait). Sorry. It hasn't been too great for Customer Service since November.

Do you know that you will not have some of Logos 4's features if you go with the free version? You may understand that, but in case you wonder, you should check the minimal crossgrade contents to see what you will not have (no interlinears is the big one, but also no timelines, Biblical People, Biblical Places, and some other things.) Of course, you may not care about these features.

http://www.logos.com/minimalcrossgrade

spitzerpl

I can't guarantee this will work but my best experience getting through quickly with customer service is to call first thing when they open their doors in the morning.

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98527#Comment_98527

I apologize for being so blunt but the tone of your post made me believe this was the tone to which you would respond.

I am not sure what you meant by "the tone of your post", it seems reasonable to me. That said, i agree calling customer service would still be the best option.

Ted

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98533#Comment_98533

I am not sure what you meant by "the tone of your post", it seems reasonable to me.

No, the tone was no unreasonable, but it did have a "I've been told what to do and I've tried everything except what I was told to do" tone. Perhaps a few too many foster teenagers have made be less tolerant of this tone and more apt to be blunt rather than conciliatory.

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98535#Comment_98535

No, the tone was no unreasonable, but it did have a "I've been told what to do and I've tried everything except what I was told to do" tone. Perhaps a few too many foster teenagers have made be less tolerant of this tone and more apt to be blunt rather than conciliatory.

Ha MJ, i should have guessed your logical mind is at work again. Point taken, but don't loss your conciliatory self in the process[;)] [:)]. Blessings.

Ted

David

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98527#Comment_98527

I don't think Jesus would wait on the phone for 30 minutes. That's completely unacceptable. If that's the state of affairs, that's fine. Just let me know what to do. Surely it's not that unreasonable to expect an email response within 10 days. Even if it only says, "Hold on! We're swamped! We'll get back with you in 5 months.", I'd be happy with that. I'm just wanting to be assured the time window to return it doesn't expire.

No need to apologize. I love bluntness, but I love effective advice more. I already said I wasn't going to wait on the phone again for 30 minutes. I mean what I say.

WWJD. I apologize for being so blunt but the tone of your post made me believe this was the tone to which you would respond.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98547#Comment_98547

I already said I wasn't going to wait on the phone again for 30 minutes. I mean what I say.

It is certainly your choice to not do what is necessary. I would liken it to wanting to get a driver's license without going to the Department of Licensing because of the waits (yes, I did have a kid do this for several weeks [:)]).

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98547#Comment_98547

I don't think Jesus would wait on the phone for 30 minutes

David your frustration is uniquely yours and I will not try and talk you out of it it, but Jesus has put up with me for 54 years, something tells me that God has more patience than not being able to sit longer than 30 minutes on hold. [:D]

Try the first thing when they open up in the mornings, when I do this I have not had to wait longer than 5 minutes.

David

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98530#Comment_98530

Mark,

Thanks for your concern. Besides the interlinears, the other features you mentioned don't move me much. I like the Lexham Bible, but can live without it. The interlinear issue, though, is in fact the proverbial hair that broke the camel's back. The interlinear aspect of the Logos LXX is in Hebrew, which makes no sense to me considering they already have a LXX/MT polyglot. There are other issues about it that I really don't want to go into here. I have other interlinears that work fine for me. My main interest in L4 was the hope that L3's cumbersomeness would be done away with. Some things have been improved greatly. Other key things are worse.

David, I suspect even if someone from Logos had time to respond here, they might still tell you to call (and wait). Sorry. It hasn't been too great for Customer Service since November.

Do you know that you will not have some of Logos 4's features if you go with the free version? You may understand that, but in case you wonder, you should check the minimal crossgrade contents to see what you will not have (no interlinears is the big one, but also no timelines, Biblical People, Biblical Places, and some other things.) Of course, you may not care about these features.

http://www.logos.com/minimalcrossgrade

David

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98550#Comment_98550

5 minutes? Sign me up. Would that be 11AM EST?

Try the first thing when they open up in the mornings, when I do this I have not had to wait longer than 5 minutes.

Paul Strickert

IMO, it's poor customer service not to respond more promptly to an e-mail. No, I wouldn't tear off someone's head because of it. But I do expect more from a company like Logos (one that places a high premium on customer service).

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98552#Comment_98552

5 minutes? Sign me up. Would that be 11AM EST?

I'm terrible at math [:D] Here are the hours from their website:

Monday - Friday
6 AM - 5 PM (Pacific Time)

If you click on their main website, it will tell you what time it is there right under their hours.

BTW, your mileage may very because God may think you need to practice patience [;)], but I will leave that matter for the two of you to discuss.

David

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98552#Comment_98552

Nevermind. I see that they open at 6AM, which would be 9Am for me. That may do the trick. I'll try again.

5 minutes? Sign me up. Would that be 11AM EST?

Try the first thing when they open up in the mornings, when I do this I have not had to wait longer than 5 minutes.

David

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98556#Comment_98556

Oops, Terry. We posted at the same time.Thanks.

BTW, for all concerned. It for me is not a matter of patience. It's a question of what's right. I place businesses and people in two very different categories. I don't get put on hold for 30 minutes for any company. I take my business elsewhere. That's the way it is in the US, and I think that's the way it should be. I just spent years of my life dealing with some software produced in a heavily socialist country. The product and customer service were atrocious. If they were a US company they would be out of business, but I guess socialism keeps inefficiency alive. If high expectations for companies aren't maintained, that is the kind of situation that results.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98560#Comment_98560

BTW, for all concerned. It for me is not a matter of patience. It's a question of what's right.

As I said, I will not try and talk you down. BTW, the really funny part is that Bob Pritchett the President of Logos agrees with you concerning the current state of Logos customer service and has issued a public apology along with listing the steps that he is taking to try and cure the problem.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98553#Comment_98553

IMO, it's poor customer service not to respond more promptly to an e-mail. No, I wouldn't tear off someone's head because of it. But I do expect more from a company like Logos (one that places a high premium on customer service).

I agree. It is poor customer service to not respond promptly to e-mails. I certainly wouldn't call long response times good customer service. That being said I took part in poor customer service once upon a time and am sympathetic to Logos' position. The company I worked for instituted a new policy that drastically increased call and email volume. When everyone is called to the phones there is no one to answer e-mails. On top of that answering emails correctly takes time. It solves nothing to send an inadequate response that will require another email. You've only exasperated the problem by doubling the email traffic. You can higher temps, but for a program like Logos that's only going to mean more of that double or triple traffic because having a temp solves little, you need to higher a temp with knowledge of the issues they are trying to resolve so they end up pushing more to an already swamped tier two.

My heart truly does go out to the swamped Logos employees. Your the same great people you were in October with a ton more work staring you down each day. Keep up the good work and remember, this too shall pass :-)

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98560#Comment_98560

Observation: operations research queueing theory predicts very busy resources have long wait times. Conversely, if wait times short, resource has significant idle time.

Since Profit is Revenue minus Expenses, many profitable businesses have economic incentive to minimize expenses, including customer service and checkout staff.

Deep thought: when Jesus was unjustly tried at night, wonder how long he waited ? (e.g. rousing jury from sleep, false witness preparation, ...)

Keep Smiling [:)]

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98573#Comment_98573

Upon reading Keep Smiling's post about operations research, I was just trying to think about the Math...Well Its just too late for that...[:D]

But, I will add this....as food for thought. In some ways I am extremely pleased that Logos is so busy....They must have a product that Lots of people are really trying to use and not drop....If people were dropping it...they would go out of business.

I can also provide another tidbit. 30 minutes is nothing. Everyone at some point or another must hurry up and wait. No response from Email in 10 days....Don't wait 10 days...drop another note a few days later...Email is so weird...

David Langer

If this still isn't getting resolved to your satisfaction you can always go to the top and email Bob Pritchett -- bob@logos.com. Bob is pretty understanding about customer service issues and really wants to keep his customers happy. BTW -- Bob has put his logos email out there at different times.

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98560#Comment_98560

Just a thought - I run a business, and I am a person. When someone calls me, and treats me like a person, I am sure they get a much better response out of me then if they treat me like a business. I'd like to respond kindly and lovingly to those who call and treat me poorly, I try, but ... but am not always successful.

My point - businesses and people are not 2 very different categories - businesses are made up of people.

Oops, Terry. We posted at the same time.Thanks.

BTW, for all concerned. It for me is not a matter of patience. It's a question of what's right. I place businesses and people in two very different categories. I don't get put on hold for 30 minutes for any company. I take my business elsewhere. That's the way it is in the US, and I think that's the way it should be. I just spent years of my life dealing with some software produced in a heavily socialist country. The product and customer service were atrocious. If they were a US company they would be out of business, but I guess socialism keeps inefficiency alive. If high expectations for companies aren't maintained, that is the kind of situation that results.

Paul Strickert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/99169#Comment_99169

I'll let David speak for himself. But, if I'm not mistaken, he never made contact with a person at Logos. How he would treat that person, if he were to get through, we have no idea. The heart of the matter, it seems to me, is summed up thusly: "I take my business elsewhere." I can understand the sentiment. Logos, as a business, has not impressed David. Too long on hold. Too long to wait for an e-mail. If customer service is important to him, and it seems to be, then I can understand his frustration. The difference between David and us is the degree of frustration he will tolerate. If he were to express a desire to fly a small plane into Logos headquarters, then he's got a problem. If he simply chooses not to do business with Logos, so be it.

EDIT: I re-read his first post. It seems as though David did speak to a person. He doesn't indicate how he treated that person, though.

Theophilus

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/98568#Comment_98568

the really funny part is that Bob Pritchett the President of Logos agrees with you concerning the current state of Logos customer service and has issued a public apology ... .

For what it's worth, you can find that blog entry here:

http://www.bobpritchett.com/blog/2010/01/on_failing_our_customers.html

For me at least, it really opened my eyes, not just to the challenges that the business is genuinely facing, but the heart of the man behind the business. Not to mention the whole contingent of Logos users (many of whom are regulars of this forum) that rallied behind him (and his business!).

Matt W

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/99192#Comment_99192

It's great that people jump to Logos defense, but I sympathize with the OP here. Too often companies are quick and polite in taking new orders and drag their feet in processing refunds or cancellations. It sends a message that customer relationships are only important when there is a direct and immediate benefit. Or worse that delay tactics are used to avoid refunds. Hopefully that's not the case here and it's a training issue with support staff.

Time is our most valuable asset and being treated like a person goes both ways. I wouldn't expect anyone to wait on hold for 30 mins while I work on other stuff. Instead I would offer to call them back when I am less busy. I don't know why we should expect anything different from a company. The rep should have asked him if the customer support staff could call him back at a later time. When he called sales, they should have offered to put his name in a queue to get a call back from support or directed him to someone's voicemail.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/99218#Comment_99218

Alll I can contribute to this conversation that has not been said is this....a wise man once said to me many years ago, "Don't judge a business by the problems they have, judge it by what they do to fix them."

Despite the many issues on the plate right now for Logos, I think many of us feel Bob has the right disposition, orientation, charity, and smarts to navigate the company and its customer base to calm seas. We all have read his posts, and many know that in the past he has backed up his words with results.

I can't honestly, from a business perspective, suggest anything more than what he is liely doing. For example -- customer service is slow - hire and train more people. That takes time! It won't be fixed in a month. It could get better in a month though.

About the only thing we cannot judge from the outside, would be is the company properly focused on stability of product and services and not running so hard at new things. Sometimes you do have to slow down some, and let's hope Bob has the right judgment on that. It's a small company with lots of irons in the fire - Logos 4, Mac, mobile, iPhone, adding version 3 features, hiring, etc....lots of balls to juggle. But that's what Bob gets paid the big bucks to manage [;)]

I ok with where we are right now, and I have said in the past 2010 will be a challenging year for Logos. But I am happy where I am because I think they will do a great job navigating to bigger and better things for all of us. For me, I evaluate the situation in Jan. 2011. I expect it to be a lot better then, and I am enjoying the product now anyways!

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/99237#Comment_99237

Alll I can contribute to this conversation that has not been said is this....a wise man once said to me many years ago, "Don't judge a business by the problems they have, judge it by what they do to fix them."

Despite the many issues on the plate right now for Logos, I think many of us feel Bob has the right disposition, orientation, charity, and smarts to navigate the company and its customer base to calm seas. We all have read his posts, and many know that in the past he has backed up his words with results.

Very well said.

David A. Peterson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/99218#Comment_99218

It's great that people jump to Logos defense, but I sympathize with the OP here. Too often companies are quick and polite in taking new orders and drag their feet in processing refunds or cancellations. It sends a message that customer relationships are only important when there is a direct and immediate benefit. Or worse that delay tactics are used to avoid refunds.

Matt, I have only been a Logos customer since December, but a Logos user a little longer. I can't presume to speak for everyone else, but I have had nothing but a great experience when dealing with anyone from the Logos company, and the cadre of brothers and sisters here in the forums. I have made a significant commitment to Logos, a commitment I never would have made if I didn't feel that it had been recipricated. I have never had another company call me after I had made internet orders, to suggest a more benefical order, beneficial for me, not the company.

I understand people's frustrations at what some of the issues, but I feel compelled to share my positive experiences, when someone else needs to vent their negative ones, because often people are quick to complain and slow to praise, and when potential customers read nothing but complaints, I fear they may develop a false idea about the company.

Every time I have called with an order, I have known what I was going to order, and when I have called with a problem, I have had no idea what it was. Naturally, a sales call is going to be quicker than a service call, which in turn results in longer wait times. The company has acknowledged (1) they have been blessed by growth beyond their expectations and (2) it will take some time to properly train additional agents to serve us.

I think I now understand how Mac users feel (need to check myself for a goatee and latte)[:P]

In Christ,

Dave

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/99254#Comment_99254

I think I now understand how Mac users feel (need to check myself for a goatee and latte)

I am clean shaven every day and have never had a latte. You can be an almost normal person and still be a Mac user [:D] A tendency toward fanaticism does help, however. [8-|]

God has used Logos for Mac to increase my patience and turn me into a lovable little fuzz ball.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/99254#Comment_99254

I think I now understand how Mac users feel (need to check myself for a goatee and latte)

Hey, I resemble that remark... and FYI, I am not drinking a Latte in my avatar, it is a Mocha Frappachino.

David A. Peterson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/99405#Comment_99405

Hey, I resemble that remark... and FYI, I am not drinking a Latte in my avatar, it is a Mocha Frappachino.

I can neither confirm nor deny the inspiration for that comment [:D]

<><

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/99282#Comment_99282

God has used Logos for Mac to increase my patience and turn me into a lovable little fuzz ball.

I know that this question is neither wanted or fair - but in the interest of accountability, here goes: "Would your wife agree?" [:)]

Blessings,

Floyd

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/99538#Comment_99538

God has used Logos for Mac to increase my patience and turn me into a lovable little fuzz ball.

I know that this question is neither wanted or fair - but in the interest of accountability, here goes: "Would your wife agree?"

Well… She has not rebuked me lately for being harsh with Time Warner Customer Service which is probably the most patience-testing experience I know. [:D]