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Posts 506
Tim Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 12:53 PM

Fred Littlefield:

Also I cannot turn on the page info in this volume, so the only way to know the page # is by looking at the top in the location box.

Actually, Fred, you can add page numbers still in Logos 6 (just not on mobile). Here's how to do it. Select the visual filters icon (the three dots in a triangle pattern), and then select the option that says, "Show page numbers." Notice the orange page marker that shows up in the content with it turned on. Still no paragraphs though, which I agree is needed. Thanks for working on this, Martin! :)

Posts 544
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Martin Weber | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 2:31 PM

Fred, the best Logos can do is provide pagination, just as the books themselves are paginated as published by the White Estate and printed by our publishing houses. Pagination is what was requested by my contact at the Biblical Research Institute, and Logos it will get done.

In pursuit of my graduate degrees I’ve never been required to use paragraph numbers for EGW quotations. Nor are these normally cited in sermons, oral or published. Anyone who does need paragraph numbering can consult the White Estate website.

Finally, paragraph numbering would put an excessive burden on the already enormous cost of this massive project. Since all of us who are previous owners will get the interlinked recompilation free of charge, I hope you can consider this a good deal. 

Posts 506
Tim Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 2:47 PM

Martin Weber:

Fred, the best Logos can do is provide pagination, just as the books themselves are paginated as published by the White Estate and printed by our publishing houses. Pagination is what was requested by my contact at the Biblical Research Institute, and Logos it will get done.

In pursuit of my graduate degrees I’ve never been required to use paragraph numbers for EGW quotations. Nor are these normally cited in sermons, oral or published. Anyone who does need paragraph numbering can consult the White Estate website.

Finally, paragraph numbering would put an excessive burden on the already enormous cost of this massive project. Since all of us who are previous owners will get the interlinked recompilation free of charge, I hope you can consider this a good deal. 

You know, I suppose that is still pretty reasonable. After all it's really not that complicated to figure out what paragraph number a certain sentence is in. For example, compare these two screenshots, one is from Logos, the other is from the traditional EGW Folio Views software. It's really not that complicated to figure out the paragraphs as long as you have the page markers.

Folio Views:

Logos 6:

Posts 164
Reimar Vetne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 5:22 PM

Martin is right. Adding page numbers to Ellen White's books, the way all Logos resources with page numbers are handled, is the right way to go.

We don't need paragraph numbers. That is just an unnecessary set of data that would have to be included in the text itself, and we would all need to manually delete brackets with paragraph numbers when copying and pasting a quotation into a document.

Posts 2783
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 6:14 PM

Reimar Vetne:

Martin is right. Adding page numbers to Ellen White's books, the way all Logos resources with page numbers are handled, is the right way to go.

We don't need paragraph numbers. That is just an unnecessary set of data that would have to be included in the text itself, and we would all need to manually delete brackets with paragraph numbers when copying and pasting a quotation into a document.

Yes, we do need the paragraph numbers.  That is the STANDARD way of referencing the works of EGW in the SDA world.

And they were included in the text files before Faithlife removed them.  [have not seen the files that Faithlife received but they are expected and also printed in all of the dead tree copies]

No, we would not need to delete them as all EGW scholars are expecting them. Example:

In the beginning, God was revealed in all the works of creation. It was Christ that spread the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth. It was His hand that hung the worlds in space, and fashioned the flowers of the field. "His strength setteth fast the mountains." "The sea is His, and He made it." Ps. 65:6; 95:5. It was He that filled the earth with beauty, and the air with song. And upon all things in earth, and air, and sky, He wrote the message of the Father’s love. {DA 20.1}

Ellen Gould White, The Desire of Ages, vol. 3, Conflict of the Ages Series (Pacific Press Publishing Association, 1898), 20.

Posts 506
Tim Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 6:27 PM

David Ames:

Yes, we do need the paragraph numbers.

I'll admit, I would like the paragraph numbers too, but... is what you say true? Do we really NEED them?

Would they be nice? Of course, but are they NECESSARY? I don't think so. The print versions of her writings don't have paragraph numbers on them. The paragraph numbers are only an added bonus that some pieces of software (Like Folio Views) have added, but before that, people got along just fine without paragraph numbers, and people who only use her print books still get along just fine without paragraph numbers too. Paragraph numbers are a luxury, a non-essential convenience.

I would like them, but with everything that Logos has done already for the SDA community, I'll choose to look at this cup as half full (at least half full) for sure.

Posts 2783
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 6:28 PM

Martin Weber:

Finally, paragraph numbering would put an excessive burden on the already enormous cost of this massive project. 

Please check the original unedited files that were received by Faithlife.  

I would expect that they were all marked like {DA 20.1}

and expect that someone at Faithlife entered the editing command: replace { to } with ' ' to get rid of them.   

This is NOT something that Faithlife has to do. It is MAYBE already done in your received unedited files.  [[EDIT: Maybe added after reading other posts]]

Adding a command to goto DA 20.1 would be "enormous cost" But the functionality is already in Logos. 

as in:  Open the book. Search for "{DA 20.1}" in All Open Resources.  

[[except that searches looking for '{' don't seem to work  But "DA 20.1" does.  Assuming that the curly brackets are used for advance searches or something]]

Posts 2783
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 6:38 PM

Tim Taylor:

The print versions of her writings don't have paragraph numbers on them. 

A copy, not printed by the 'official' SDA printers that I pulled off the shelf has them. But official copies on my shelf do not.

Tim Taylor:

I would like them, but with everything that Logos has done already for the SDA community, I'll choose to look at this cup as half full (at least half full) for sure.

Agree - if we can not have them we can live without them.   Or use another version to copy and paste after doing all the research in Logos.

But I still would like to know if they were in the files sent to Faithlife.

Posts 2783
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 7:46 PM

David Ames:

But I still would like to know if they were in the files sent to Faithlife.

Checked http://www.whiteestate.org/  Their online books do not have the page number paragraph marks 

[[Yes, shooting down my own theory - wanted to beet the rest of you Tongue Tied]] 

Posts 131
Fred Littlefield | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 7:51 PM

I will accept what I can get, but I have to respectfully disagree on the paragraph numbers. I constantly see paragraph numbers being quoted in sermons in PowerPoint, and in YouTube videos and even publications, (but not as often in publications). The difficult ones to accept with no paragraph markings are the Periodicals when a periodical is quoted it can have 20 or more paragraphs (Average of 11) in it and the quote can be difficult to find except for by searching for a phrase, which some times gets verbally repeated a little different than the original. I agree that for official Reference Work and Quotations they are not required, but we (as a church) are used to them and use and rely on them frequently, and in the modern electronic EG White age it is the norm.

I realize that we may not ever get them back, but they are already there in the old writings, can't they be left there and hidden by an option check box. In EG White Estate, folio they can be toggled on or off by a option  in the View menu called "Hidden".

I may be one of the few that wants this, but I would be willing to spend some extra money to get them back, and think there are others that would as well, even if I had to add an extra $100.00 to the cost of the original works.

These writings are the inspiration of God and great blessings will result for Logos by helping His people study them with efficiency. God Bless Logos.

Posts 131
Fred Littlefield | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 8:01 PM

David Ames - That is because they turn them off on the server with the option in the View menu called "Hidden".

Posts 164
Reimar Vetne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 9:24 PM

The reason that you often see codes like {DA 20.1} in PowerPoints, blog posts etc is that people are too lazy to remove them. These codes have been an unfortunate part of the electronic files since the EGW Estate made a searchable CD-Rom of her writings back in the day (maybe due to some long-gone technical aspect of the MS-DOS search software). Originally (in the printed books) there are no paragraph numbers.

There is NO scholarly convention or style of reference that demands these paragraph numbers. No college or university, SDA or otherwise, request these paragraph numbers from their students or professors. Let us finally get rid of these codes once and for all. They mess up the text, and they also give the wrong impression that Ellen White's writings have a kind of "chapters and verses" like the Bible. Author, book-title and page-number is all that is needed in scholarly references of Ellen White's writings.

Posts 2783
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 4:14 AM

Reimar Vetne:

and they also give the wrong impression that Ellen White's writings have a kind of "chapters and verses" like the Bible. 

Good reason to get rid of them!

Posts 73
Brian Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 7:40 AM

To summarize what I think I am hearing--because scholars do not use EGW paragraph tags, therefore they are not valid and should be removed as "chapter and verse" notation lifts EGW's writings to the level of scripture.

May I humbly suggest the following points.

1. Milton and Josephus are a couple of examples where it is common to quote chapter and verse. Logos even includes the Josephus paragraph numbers. Other examples could be readily provided.

2. The official www.egwwritings.org maintains the paragraph tags which can be turned on or off.

3. Translators use the paragraph tags for ease of translation and sometimes publish the paragraph tags in the final text for ease of comparison.

4. Pastors and lay people use the paragraph tags as standard EGW notation. (30 years ago in Freshman Bible class, the teacher spent more than one day teaching and then reinforcing the EGW paragraph notation.) 

5. Among the reasons why it is standard to reference paragraph numbers in non-scholarly works (even when quoting from a dead tree source) is convenience. Not everyone is a speed reader. 

6. I was introduced to Logos (Libronix) 15 years ago by a lay Sabbath school teacher. The underlying implication that Logos is only for seminar students who, because they are scholars, do not use paragraph tags is unfortunate.

The spirit of a pilgrim greatly facilitates praying. An earth-bound, earth-satisfied spirit cannot pray.--E. M. Bounds

Posts 544
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Martin Weber | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 23 2015 11:18 AM

This is to confirm that the White Estate did not provide paragraph numbers with the official files they sent us. We simply worked with what they gave us--page numbers only. Here's the message I just received from the head of Content Production:

(10:57 AM) We used the PDFs as our authoritative source material. None of the paragraph numbers were present.

Wrapping this up: I agree that it would be great to have paragraph numbers to toggle in and out of, but the updated files sent to us by the White Estate did not make that possible. Thanks for all your input.

Posts 5
Nick Clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2015 9:04 AM

So I noticed that there is a prepub going on right now. It' here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I already owned all these book.

Now I'll definitely pitch in if it means all the books will now be fully tagged, book covers added, etc, but I'm wondering, If I already own these books, do I need to buy this pre-pub to get the updates? When the prepub comes out, will I all of a sudden, have doubles of each book if I buy it? Is there any more details on this?

Posts 6717
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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 26 2015 12:36 PM

Nick Clark:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I already owned all these book.

If you are signed in to Logos and the purchase button in gray, then you will receive the update free of charge. I have already received some of the updated material.

Lynden Williams Communications https://www.lyndenwilliams.net 

Posts 5
Nick Clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 30 2015 7:20 AM

Ah, yes. It was grayed. Considering I make a living developing web applications, you would have thought I might have noticed  Wink

Posts 506
Tim Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 2 2015 7:01 AM

I am pleasantly surprised to see that 83 more EGW books were updated! Here's the list of what was updated yesterday. If you add this to the list the 48 resources I posted on the first page of this thread, you will have a complete list of updated books so far.

  1. A Call to Service in the Master’s Harvest Field by White, Ellen Gould
  2. A Call to the Watchmen by White, Ellen Gould
  3. A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White by White, Ellen Gould
  4. Adventist Home by White, Ellen Gould
  5. Amazing Grace by White, Ellen Gould
  6. An Appeal by White, Ellen Gould
  7. An Appeal for Missions by White, Ellen Gould
  8. An Appeal for Self-supporting Laborers to Enter Unworked Fields by White, Ellen Gould
  9. An Appeal in Behalf of Our New Medical College by White, Ellen Gould
  10. An Appeal in Behalf of Our Work in Scandinavia by White, Ellen Gould
  11. An Appeal to Ministers and Church Officers by White, Ellen Gould
  12. An Appeal to Our Churches in Behalf of Home Missionary Work by White, Ellen Gould
  13. An Appeal to Seventh-day Adventists to Fulfill Their Duty to the South by White, Ellen Gould
  14. An Exposure of Fanaticism and Wickedness by White, Ellen Gould
  15. An Important Testimony to our Brethren and Sisters in New York by White, Ellen Gould
  16. Appeal and Suggestions to Conference Officers by White, Ellen Gould
  17. Appeal to the Young by White, Ellen Gould
  18. Appeals for Unity by White, Ellen Gould
  19. Australasian Union Conference Record by White, Ellen Gould
  20. Battle Creek Letters by White, Ellen Gould
  21. Bible Training School by White, Ellen Gould
  22. Brother Aldrich by White, Ellen Gould
  23. Child Guidance by White, Ellen Gould
  24. Choice Thoughts on Dress by White, Ellen Gould
  25. Christ’s Object Lessons by White, Ellen Gould
  26. Christian Education by White, Ellen Gould
  27. Christian Education (Periodical Sept. 1, 1909) by White, Ellen Gould
  28. Christian Leadership by White, Ellen Gould
  29. Christian Service by White, Ellen Gould
  30. Christian Temperance and Bible Hygiene by White, Ellen Gould
  31. Colporteur Ministry by White, Ellen Gould
  32. Conflict and Courage by White, Ellen Gould
  33. Counsels on Diet and Foods by White, Ellen Gould
  34. Counsels on Health by White, Ellen Gould
  35. Counsels on Sabbath School Work by White, Ellen Gould
  36. Counsels on Stewardship by White, Ellen Gould
  37. Daughters of God by White, Ellen Gould
  38. Do You Eat Flesh? by White, Ellen Gould
  39. Education by White, Ellen Gould
  40. Elder Daniels and the Fresno Church by White, Ellen Gould
  41. Ellen G. White in Europe by Delafield, D. A.
  42. Extracts from Unpublished Testimonies in Regard to Flesh Foods by White, Ellen Gould
  43. Faith and Works by White, Ellen Gould
  44. Fundamentals of Christian Education by White, Ellen Gould
  45. General Conference Daily Bulletin by White, Ellen Gould
  46. Gospel Workers, Revised and Enlarged by White, Ellen Gould
  47. Guiding Principles for the Young by White, Ellen Gould
  48. Healthful Living by White, Ellen Gould
  49. Hillcrest School Farm by White, Ellen Gould
  50. Important Testimony by White, Ellen Gould
  51. In Heavenly Places by White, Ellen Gould
  52. Instruction concerning Education by White, Ellen Gould
  53. Knowing and Obeying the Lord by White, Ellen Gould
  54. Lake Union Herald by White, Ellen Gould
  55. Last Day Events by White, Ellen Gould
  56. Life Sketches of James White and Ellen G. White by Ellen G. White Estate
  57. Loma Linda's Work by White, Ellen Gould
  58. Manuscript Release No. 728: How the Desire of Ages Was Written by Ellen G. White Estate
  59. Manuscript Release No. 926: The Fannie Bolton Story by Ellen G. White Estate
  60. Maranatha by White, Ellen Gould
  61. Messages to Young People (Pamphlet) by White, Ellen Gould
  62. Mind, Character, and Personality, Volume 2 by White, Ellen Gould
  63. Our High Calling by White, Ellen Gould
  64. Perils Increase Till Jesus Comes by White, Ellen Gould
  65. Sermons and Talks, Volume 1 by White, Ellen Gould
  66. Sketches from the Life of Paul by White, Ellen Gould
  67. Supplement to the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White by White, Ellen Gould
  68. The Bible Echo—Bible Echo and Signs of the Times by White, Ellen Gould
  69. The Bible Echo—The Bible Echo by White, Ellen Gould
  70. The Central Union Outlook by White, Ellen Gould
  71. The Enlargement of Our Work by White, Ellen Gould
  72. The General Conference Bulletin by White, Ellen Gould
  73. The Home Missionary by White, Ellen Gould
  74. The Integrity of the Sanctuary Truth by Ellen G. White Estate
  75. The Judgment by White, Ellen Gould
  76. The Later Elmshaven Years by White, Arthur L.
  77. The Needs of the Cause in Australasia by White, Ellen Gould
  78. The New York Indicator by White, Ellen Gould
  79. The Northern Illinois Recorder by White, Ellen Gould
  80. The Northern Union Reaper by White, Ellen Gould
  81. The Oriental Watchman by White, Ellen Gould
  82. The Remnant Church: Its Organization, Authority, Unity, and Triumph by Ellen G. White Estate
  83. To Brother J. N. Andrews and Sister H. N. Smith by White, Ellen Gould
Posts 506
Tim Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 2 2015 7:07 AM

Actually I just realized I missed a batch that was updated on June 17, 2015 as well, which was this (below). If you combine these three lists then you should have the complete list.

  1. A Vision by White, Ellen Gould
  2. Acts of the Apostles by White, Ellen Gould
  3. An Appeal to Mothers by White, Ellen Gould
  4. An Appeal to the Youth by 
  5. Atlantic Union Gleaner by White, Ellen Gould
  6. Battle Creek College Record by White, Ellen Gould
  7. Christian Experience and Teachings by White, Ellen Gould
  8. Church and Sabbath School Bulletin by White, Ellen G.
  9. Confrontation by White, Ellen Gould
  10. Country Living by White, Ellen Gould
  11. East Michigan Banner by White, Ellen Gould
  12. Echoes From the Field by White, Ellen Gould
  13. Educational Messenger by White, Ellen Gould
  14. Forest Park Reporter by White, Ellen Gould
  15. Gospel Medical Messenger by White, Ellen Gould
  16. Manuscript Release No. 852: The Development of Adventist Thinking on Clean and Unclean Meats by Ellen G. White Estate
  17. Manuscript Releases, Volume 5 [Nos. 260–346, 1971–1973] by Ellen G. White Estate
  18. Manuscript Releases, Volume 9 [Nos. 664–770, 1978–1980] by Ellen G. White Estate
  19. Monthly Missionary Reading by White, Ellen Gould
  20. Our Australasian Youth and Sabbath School Guide by White, Ellen Gould
  21. Testimonies for the Church, Volume 3 by White, Ellen Gould
  22. Testimonies for the Church, Volume 5 by White, Ellen Gould
  23. Testimonies for the Church, Volume 7 by White, Ellen Gould
  24. Testimonies for the Church, Volume 8 by White, Ellen Gould
  25. Testimonies for the Church, Volume 9 by White, Ellen Gould
  26. The Advance by White, Ellen Gould
  27. The Atlantic Canvasser by White, Ellen Gould
  28. The Bible Echo—Australasian Signs of the Times by White, Ellen Gould
  29. The Canadian Union Messenger by White, Ellen Gould
  30. The Central Advance by White, Ellen Gould
  31. The Christian Educator by White, Ellen Gould
  32. The Church Officers’ Gazette by White, Ellen Gould
  33. The Day-Star by White, Ellen Gould
  34. The Good Samaritan by White, Ellen Gould
  35. The Gospel of Health by White, Ellen Gould
  36. The Hygienic Caterer by White, Ellen Gould
  37. The Indiana Reporter by White, Ellen Gould
  38. The Medical Evangelist by White, Ellen Gould
  39. The Messenger by White, Ellen Gould
  40. The Minnesota Worker by White, Ellen Gould
  41. The Missionary Magazine by White, Ellen G.
  42. The Missionary Worker by White, Ellen G.
  43. The Nebraska Reporter by White, Ellen Gould
  44. The Southern Missionary by White, Ellen Gould
  45. The Spirit of Prophecy, Volume 1 by White, Ellen Gould
  46. The Spirit of Prophecy, Volume 3 by White, Ellen Gould
  47. To the Little Remnant Scattered Abroad by White, Ellen Gould
  48. To Those Who Are Receiving the Seal of the Living God by White, Ellen Gould
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