Faithlife Financially: "What condition is your condition is in?"

I saw remarks on a recent thread in reference to Faithlife financial situation. I and others are considering investing more in the Logos Bible Software Product. Is Faithlife financially sound? I am not asking just to be mean or to alarm anyone unduly, but to give this matter a proper airing. No one wants to come aboard a sinking ship. This inquiry is a fair question for any reasonable, responsible, Christian steward. Things can happen very fast in the times in which we are living. Not withstanding, it pays (always) for one to do his or her homework before investing heavily in a product. Hey, if "big banks" can fail, how much more, we are to inquire of smaller companies? It's always "better to be safe, than to be sorry."

I really would like to hear from Bob or those who really knows. Or from those who don't know for sure, but have been reassured and their reasons for being assured. The changes in the payment plans help drives this inquiry for others. Let the truth be spoken and "let the chips fall where they may." Any factional information will be appreciated. If this information is posted somewhere or on another website, please direct me to it.

MVPs and employees are welcome to contribute to this thread. Truth doesn't need lawyers, just witnesses.

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JT (alabama24)

I really would like to hear from Bob or those who really knows.

Search for posts from Bob. He has answered this question recently... probably in the same thread(s) you referenced above.

(‾◡◝)

The question has been asked and responded to on several occasions. Might I direct you to https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_Speaks for some past answers? In particular, note the section called Company Information.

John Goodman

As a private company in the US I don't think their financials are public info... You are probably limited to press release info... Bob has posted before info about what happens if they go out of business in terms of your books. You still have them downloaded. They are probably too big to go out of business without simply being purchased. Also you could send books to kindle etc.

There are good signs of life though... new products, hirings etc.

Hope that helps.

Mark Barnes

I really would like to hear from Bob or those who really knows.

As has been said, Bob's already answered that in the thread you referred to.

We're not in any danger of disappearing. We're a significant business with a wonderful, active customer base (thank you!) that still makes a profit…

For what it's worth, we are both profitable and growing this year. We're just tweaking our payment plan system so that we can continue to serve you well without having to borrow future receivables from someone we meet in the alley behind the dumpster. :-)

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/783450#Comment_783450

I hope that the above has answered your questions which have also been addressed a number of times over the years. For me personally I'm confident in the future of Faithlife and will continue to invest in Faithlife resources.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/783458#Comment_783458

I may be way off base and no one talks to me, but IMHO it sounds like a company cleaning up its financials to prepare for an IPO, which will have new challenges and benefits if true but it's certaibly an indicator of good health not bad.

It could also just be prudent decision making, giving Bob the benefit of the doubt that his remarks were true :-)

Jack Caviness

Bob is willing to try new projects, and he is not afraid to abandon one that does not work as expected. I think that factors into this change. The previous very flexible payment plan system was not really wise from a cash-flow perspective. Therefore, FL made a wise decision to change the system.

Unfortunately, communication is not FL's strong suit. While the change was probably necessary, the abruptness of its implementation and the really, really bad way in which was communicated gives some the impression of financial difficulties. FL has never done a decent job of communication, and I frankly see no attempt to improve on that abysmal record.

Bottom line—Not financial insolvency, but rather lousy communication.

GregW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/783462#Comment_783462

I may be way off base and no one talks to me, but IMHO it sounds like a company cleaning up its financials to prepare for an IPO, which will have new challenges and benefits if true but it's certaibly an indicator of good health not bad.

I'll talk to you Don!

I read things slightly differently but agree with you that what we are seeing are signs of health. I think that the moves we've seen on subscriptions and payment plans are good examples of looking ahead, seeing the challenges that lie in the future, and putting things in place to meet those challenges. I'm not qualified to comment on whether there is an IPO on the way, but the fact that Bob is prepared to make some difficult changes to face the challenges he sees coming down the tracks is one that gives me confidence in FL's future.

If Fl were in trouble, I suspect we'd be seeing a hiring freeze followed by some fairly substantial layoffs as the first indicators of that, and there is no sign of that happening. On the contrary, we are seeing continued hiring and investment in the products.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/783574#Comment_783574

I have no idea if an IPO would ever come nor do I have any significant notion about the financial health of FL. But Bob's explanation seemed sound and indicated to me cash flow for payment of royalties was leaving FL occasionally cash poor for the payments. Now that we have had full explanation from Bob and Glen Airoldi it fully seems to me to be just a sound business decision that well may inconvenience me or others but is in no way unfair and just rebalances the FL sales systems. When payment plans first came out I am fairly sure they were unto 12 months only...before this last change caping things to a max 20 months, it had expanded to unto 27 months. That is a long time for FL to wait to get it's money, it is no wonder accounting looked at it and said lets make some changes, not to scrap the system but so it is still available to customers and better suited for FL business model. And like it had been said earlier if the worst ever happened without doubt FL would be snapped up the customer base and it's resources contracts would be too tempting a Jewel to allow to disappear. Whether it would be Lifeway, Harpercollins, or some other company I am sure it would go on (in a dream world it would be Accordance that gets FL, because we would finally get full offline support the mobile app, but i would guess Accordance likely too small to pick up FL even from a bankruptcy sale).

-Dan

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/783643#Comment_783643

I have no idea if an IPO would ever come nor do I have any significant notion about the financial health of FL. But Bob's explanation seemed sound and indicated to me cash flow for payment of royalties was leaving FL occasionally cash poor for the payments... And like it had been said earlier if the worst ever happened without doubt FL would be snapped up the customer base and it's resources contracts would be too tempting a Jewel to allow to disappear. Whether it would be Lifeway, Harpercollins, or some other company I am sure it would go on (in a dream world it would be Accordance that gets FL, because we would finally get full offline support the mobile app, but i would guess Accordance likely too small to pick up FL even from a bankruptcy sale).

Dan,

In the real world of life and business, one expects the best, yet prepares for the worst. Logos is a good product. The potentials to do more are huge. What's wrong with an IPO if Faithlife wants to go down that road?

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/783458#Comment_783458

I hope that the above has answered your questions which have also been addressed a number of times over the years. F

Thanks for your insights. Each year brings new challenges. Besides, It good to hear what we know to be so. Children and wives like to hear "I love you" not that anything has changed--Just a re-affirmation.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784099#Comment_784099

Dan,

In the real world of life and business, one expects the best, yet prepares for the worst. Logos is a good product. The potentials to do more are huge. What's wrong with an IPO if Faithlife wants to go down that road?

You misunderstood me or I was very unclear, I have nothing against an IPO, although it may change the course of the company greatly, especially if Bob held back anything less than 51%. I also am not too sure how the fickle markets would respond to Faithlife. An IPO may be a wonderful thing or a horrible thing. I honestly have not thought about it enough to have a solid opinion.

-Dan

PS: I do think of Apple though, a strong company that after it went public booted out the visionary founder and nearly died till he came back to rescue it. I am not saying any one person is needed for Apple or Faithlife, just that sometimes the short term corporate interests can be at odds to the long term health of a company.

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784172#Comment_784172

You misunderstood me or I was very unclear, I have nothing against an IPO, although it may change the course of the company greatly, especially if Bob held back anything less than 51%. I also am not too sure how the fickle markets would respond to Faithlife. An IPO may be a wonderful thing or a horrible thing. I honestly have not thought about it enough to have a solid opinion.

Thanks, Dan.

We're not far apart in our understandings. All I want is what's best, to bless all the rest.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784099#Comment_784099

What's wrong with an IPO if Faithlife wants to go down that road?

If we read up on the history of Logos we discover an IPO that was less than pleasant. I don't think they will do it again.

Bob Pritchett

The official word:

Faithlife is fine.

We haven't lost money in any year since sometime around 1997. We are still growing, though slower than in the past. (We spent a decade growing at 20% / year, but that's harder to sustain as the numbers grow.)

We are still privately held and controlled by the Pritchett family. (We are actually more closely held than we were 18 years ago... we have bought out earlier shareholders and consolidated ownership.)

The Payment Plans got away from us; I have explained the math in detail elsewhere, and that's what it is: a math problem. Something that was a way for a few customers to stretch out a big purchase became something that too many people used for every purchase; it allowed us to continue growing revenue further/faster than might have happened otherwise, while slowing down cash flow.

We presently engaged in a season of operational tightening-up: we're examining (and sometimes improving) everything from expense report processing to payment plans to uncollected receivables to management training to Logos Now subscription rates to employees reviews to new initiatives to office supply purchases.

This is part of our normal cycle. While there may be better-run companies that are on top of all these things all the time, many growth-driven businesses (or at least this one!) have to occasionally take their foot off the gas pedal and focus on operational improvements. Processes need to be created where there weren't any, waste need to be rooted out, and ideas/projects/procedures that worked at one scale and don't at the new scale need to be re-considered or eliminated.

The immediate impetus is a desire to continue growing. We have actually done such a good job in our core category that we're at risk of slowing growth: of the people who say 'but of course I would rather do my Bible study with electronic tools than paper books!' we have had great success. Those people (you!) are relatively easy to find (they often find us!) and bring on board. The people who cling to their paper, who aren't searching the web for Bible software, etc. are more expensive to find and convert.

Of pastors (who as a class spend more on Bible study tools per individual) we have actually reached a surprisingly large percentage of the market. (We don't have a majority of English-speaking pastors using our product yet, but we are a lot closer than you'd think. And, again, we've brought the 'easy converts' on board already.)

And the software has matured to where it meets and exceeds the needs of many customers. While I know many of you here in the forums subscribe to Logos Now or are anxious to get Logos 7, with each new release more and more people decide that the version they have is enough. (And not because they've stopped using it -- we have stats that show people using Logos 4 or 5 daily, and when we ask they often tell us they're happy and love it, but just don't need 6 because their study method / needs are well met already.)

(I have this same experience with lots of products. I used to be excited about each new release of Word and Excel; now I barely pay attention, because my specific use cases for each were completely addressed by the 2007 (?) feature set.)

We want to keep growing. There are many reasons, from the personal (it's more fun than shrinking!) to the financial (we still have investors, and it's a responsibility to steward their investment wisely) to the pragmatic (growth creates opportunities for our team members; without growth in the organization individuals who are growing need to stay in the same job/salary, or compete for limited advancement opportunities, or leave to find new opportunities).

One of the best ways to grow is to find 'adjacent markets', and we're pursuing that on multiple fronts. Taking our products to new language markets (German, French, Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, etc.) is an obvious adjacency. Making products in new categories that our existing customers also spend in is another. (Hence Logos Mobile Education, Proclaim Church Presentation software, etc.) Offering our existing products in ways that make them accessible to previously unreachable customers is yet another. (Hence Logos Cloud and subscription based offerings, for people who do like renting vs. buying.)

This type of new market growth can require significant investment. We still need to spend to serve our existing customers and market (you are incredibly important to us!) but we need cash to invest in future markets -- and even with which to make mistakes! :-)

For example, Proclaim lost money for about five years. It is a subscription product, meaning revenue comes in slowly, month by month, and it also required a significant up-front investment in code: it had to work on the first day, before earning the first dollar, and even then it took a long time to build a mature product and feature set. Today it is a strong, mature product that works well and has thousands of happy, paying customers, and it is paying its way. And at this point each addition Proclaim subscription is very profitable -- the incremental costs of supporting one more church are relatively low, and there's no royalty to pay on the core product. Proclaim should be a significant contributor in the coming years.

But it took five years to get here, during which it was subsidized by Logos Bible Software.

We've been investing in building a German base package for over a year. We've hired staff, paid translators, traveled to Germany, licensed books, etc. That's a lot of expense for a product that hasn't shipped yet. Once it does, it should be great and should help us grow -- but it could still take another year or two (or more?) before it's a consistent contributor at a scale that covers the fixed costs of translation, licensing, text conversion, support staffing, etc. The very first German base package customer won't represent much revenue -- but will expect a fully mature product, tech support, etc.

And we're building out multiple languages, as well as other product areas.

When a huge portion of our revenue came from pre-pub product sales, and all base packages were sold in single transactions, cash flow was strong and you, the customers, were essentially acting as our financing partner: all the money came in the day a pre-pub shipped, and all new sales brought in the full price the same day, making it easy to pay royalties 90 days later, etc.

The intersection of increased use of payment plans with the maturity of the core market and the need to make investments in adjacent spaces has exacerbated the cash crunch; this is causing us to look carefully at our operational controls, revenues, costs, cash flow, etc. This is always a good exercise and something we should do anyways.

We are also considering taking on outside investment to help fuel the next round of growth. We don't need to do this, but it could be a great way to ensure we keep growing, creating opportunities for the business and the people who are investing their careers here -- as well as a way for us to be of greater service to you and the church.

We used outside investment to start the company. Six people invested the cash the founders needed to quit our day jobs and work on Logos Bible Software full time. It allowed us to hire a team and build the business. We haven't taken on any outside investment since 1995, but it's possible that it would be wise to do again. It isn't particularly unusual for businesses to do this to fund growth, and it's not a sign of desperation, or failure -- it's just one of many tools in the toolbox for building a business -- and particularly for accelerating growth.

The preparation for considering investment is very healthy. If you take the time to look at your business the way a potential investor would, you see things from a different perspective, are forced to explain and justify your use of resources, etc.

I have no intention of pursuing an IPO, even though the process we're going through internally is similar to what you'd do to get ready for that. IPOs are in less favor than ever, largely due to the higher regulatory burden and attendant costs of being public today. I have a further aversion in that I care deeply about our mission to use technology to help the church grow in the light of the Bible. While it might be possible to find a private investor who cares about that, public companies face different pressures and interests.

The bottom line is that we are here for you and intend to be here for you indefinitely and are working hard to ensure that our operations and financial situation support our being here for you indefinitely. We may bring in investors to help us grow, or our process of introspection and operational improvements may show we can continue growing with our own resources -- always our favorite plan!

Either way, we're fundamentally a strong business, and we have dozens of options to which we could retreat if circumstances got ugly, all of which would have no impact on our ability to continue serving our existing customers.

I'm sharing a lot of internal information and thinking ... but you're as smart and concerned a group of customers as any company has ever had, and if/when you see things that could possibly tell a story, you'll probably come up with one. I just want to make sure you don't go running off with the wrong story. :-)

I know that some of you think we don't communicate enough (I'm sorry -- I fear I could just write all day long and still not meet that need!), but we are at least very open. If you're wondering, just ask.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784188#Comment_784188

The official word:

Faithlife is fine.

Once again you have stepped up to the plate to make everything crystal clear. Thank you Bob for doing this - especially since you posted this on Thanksgiving Day. I hope you enjoy the rest of this holiday to the max. Blessings!

Steve Maling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784194#Comment_784194

Bob, many thanks for a beautifully written, very informative, and truly reassuring letter.

Now, as a retired pastor, I join Bruce in hoping you get back to the family for some re-creation[[:)].

Shalom, shalom.

Kent

No one wants to come aboard a sinking ship. This inquiry is a fair question for any reasonable, responsible, Christian steward. Things can happen very fast in the times in which we are living. Not withstanding, it pays (always) for one to do his or her homework before investing heavily in a product.

I don't understand this. In what way are you looking to "come aboard?" Do you require information like this from other companies when you buy their product?

Nevertheless, Bob has been very forthcoming and did not have to be. We are customers and he does not have to provide any more information than any other private business does. Giving away the software and only charging for resources is an excellent business model that has benefited Faithlife well and has given us tools that other electronic book distributors can't touch. Those that complain of a lack of communication should try and get more from any other company. I have never known a CEO to directly contact customers to explain anything.

Yet I still sense the feeling of entitlement among those that use Logos and it saddens me to see people calling themselves followers of Christ whose attitude is not distinguishable from others.

Fasil

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784194#Comment_784194

Thanks for the explanation. Have a blessed Thanksgiving!

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784188#Comment_784188

Bob,

Thank you for going beyond the requirements of your responsibilities to respond to your customer's concerns. You have fulfilled once again that your are attentive and responsive to inquiring minds. Your detailed remarks and future directions are most helpful and almost inspirational. The CEO of a private company (Faithlife Corp) and your willingness to relate to customers directly is a "cut above the rest." Your style of relations may become the model for others CEOs to follow in the future. You have reassured and encouraged many today. Thanks again for taking time from your Thanksgiving Day to feed others with words of truth, hope and stability. May the blessings of Heaven rest upon you and the Logos Software Product. C. McNeil

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784222#Comment_784222

I don't understand this. In what way are you looking to "come aboard?"

Fear not, I am not coming to take anything, from anybody. Nor am I seeking to invade any space where I don’t belong. The short answer to question is in the passage you quoted above: “It pays (always) for one to do his or her homework before investing heavily in a product.” This simply means, to buy or rent (Now/Cloud, long term).

Do you require information like this from other companies when you buy their product?

Yes, depending on the product, amount investing, and when service after the sale is necessary. Is something inherently wrong with this? Regardless, I am not free to ask questions of inquiry? Is there a prohibition in America that I am not aware of?

Nevertheless, Bob has been very forthcoming and did not have to be.

I thank Bob for being responsive to questions and the needs of his customers. I knew he didn’t have to answer any questions he didn’t want to answer. Bob knows this. He was not forced or threatened to answer any questions, mine or anyone else. What is your concern here?

We are customers and he does not have to provide any more information than any other private business does.

This is true. Does this preclude one from asking questions? Bob is his own man.

Giving away the software and only charging for resources is an excellent business model that has benefited Faithlife well and has given us tools that other electronic book distributors can't touch. Those that complain of a lack of communication should try and get more from any other company. I have never known a CEO to directly contact customers to explain anything.

I will admit, Bob is a special kind of CEO. He is different. This is probably one of the reasons, he’s love and respected. He’s not complaining. Besides, he’s well capable of speaking for himself. Bob is a mature businessman. What is your concern here?

Yet I still sense the feeling of entitlement among those that use Logos and it saddens me to see people calling themselves followers of Christ whose attitude is not distinguishable from others.

You’re entitled to your feelings, but that doesn’t make your perception so. The “feeling of entitlement”, that is, to what? I don’t know what you are trying to say here.

Could it be that what “saddens” you is that you are comparing “people calling themselves followers of Christ” with “others” (people) and not with Christ? Jesus is our example. We’re changed by beholding Him. I trust you will find renewed peace in knowing Christ and seeing how much he loved those that “saddens” you. The instrument of measurement or tool for judging can greatly prejudice the outcome. However, if you would like me to make some suggestions, I would do so, only at your request.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784188#Comment_784188

The Payment Plans got away from us; I have explained the math in detail elsewhere, and that's what it is: a math problem. Something that was a way for a few customers to stretch out a big purchase became something that too many people used for every purchase; it allowed us to continue growing revenue further/faster than might have happened otherwise, while slowing down cash flow.

I thought your explanation in another thread was excellent. Users should not be shocked. In financial modelling there would come a point when the percentage and cumulative size of payment plans would start to impact cash flow, particularly if they were increasing at a compounding rate every year.

(I have this same experience with lots of products. I used to be excited about each new release of Word and Excel; now I barely pay attention, because my specific use cases for each were completely addressed by the 2007 (?) feature set.)

I agree. I see this in two areas...

After Logos 4, Logos 5 and subsequently 6 represented a real maturation of the software in stability and features. Logos 4 for me was a rodeo and I submitted many bug reports. Now most of what we hoped for from Logos 3 has been incorporated and in many cases improved on. Additional features that we had not even dreamed about particularly in datasets have also been produced. (still would love clippings to be synced to mobile though!) [:)] So the question of where we go next, particularly if you are not a power user, is less impactful.

Also, resource wise for those of us who 'grew up' with the Bible software industry and were able to invest in resources as they became available for the first time in digital format, it was exciting. There have also been some exceptional values over the years and IMHO still to this day Logos 4 Platinum was one of the best buys of all time. You do however get to a point where you really don't need many more commentaries and some packages are extremely hard to justify unless you are into a specialised track of study. It would seem to me that purchasing for some users will stabilise with new general materials that are being released.

So as I make my annual Christmas visit to the Logos site, there are items that are still of interest to me, but the energy and excitement of seven to ten years ago is not quite like it was. I still remember the Christmas promo of Logos Cash... that was a lot of fun... but even more the fun turns to how we leverage our awesome collection of resources that we never dreamed we would have 20 years ago. Thanks for the ride Logos.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784188#Comment_784188

I hope in the operational improvements the forum software is high on the list. Almost every time I have reported a problem with it the response is that the software is old (how old is it? I remember when it was installed...), and needs to be replaced...no time table on that. I am sure the list is LONG that prohibits people from using the forums more. I know I use them less now than ever, because it's aggravating and it does not seem to get any better. Thanks for listening.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784244#Comment_784244

Thank you for going beyond the requirements of your responsibilities to respond to your customer's concerns. You have fulfilled once again that your are attentive and responsive to inquiring minds. Your detailed remarks and future directions are most helpful and almost inspirational. The CEO of a private company (Faithlife Corp) and your willingness to relate to customers directly is a "cut above the rest." Your style of relations may become the model for others CEOs to follow in the future. You have reassured and encouraged many today.

I am happy you feel this way. Bob has gained the trust of many, many Logos users by going beyond the call of duty time after time.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784357#Comment_784357

I hope in the operational improvements the forum software is high on the list.

You might get a better response starting a new thread.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784188#Comment_784188

The preparation for considering investment is very healthy. If you take the time to look at your business the way a potential investor would, you see things from a different perspective, are forced to explain and justify your use of resources, etc.

For those who didn't take the time to read Bob's full response, this is the key point to highlight IMO. The recent changes don't reflect a hurting company trying to save itself. They reflect a healthy company that is actively resisting the temptation to get sloppy just because it can afford to.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784388#Comment_784388

I hope in the operational improvements the forum software is high on the list.

You might get a better response starting a new thread.

Why? I would hope Bob was watching this thread for comments, No one else has replied. In fact he told me over a year ago there were no technical issues standing in the way it could be done. It seemed to be a tacit acknowledgement that for a search company not fully supplying search functionality in this case was surprising.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784188#Comment_784188

I know that some of you think we don't communicate enough (I'm sorry -- I fear I could just write all day long and still not meet that need!), but we are at least very open. If you're wondering, just ask.

I should note when I say that communication is not FL's strong suit that it is much improved in recent months. However—as an example—the change in the payment plans seems unnecessarily abrupt, and the reasons were not communicated very clearly in the beginning. You do go the extra mile—and then some—to explain things once the uproar starts. It would just seem that better explanations at the outset of a new direction for the company would eliminate much of the uproar.

Perhaps I have too much please tell us something—anything hangover from the pre-Mac version release [;)] [:P]. We Mac users wanted news, but you felt that you had nothing new to tell us. I understand your perspective, but we wanted regular reports, even if it was just "we are still working on this, but we have no news." Even that would have been better than silence.

I revive and beat that long-dead horse because sometimes I feel that FL could have avoided these long contentious threads with a little better communication at the outset rather than waiting for the natives to storm the castle.

But, as I said at the beginning of this rambling post, FL has gotten better at communication that you were 7-8 years ago. I was tired of relying on Virtual PC—I wanted a Mac version [:D]. Thank you for providing one [Y]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784393#Comment_784393

I would hope Bob was watching this thread for comments, No one else has replied.

You can email Bob directly at

Bob@Faithlife.com

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784222#Comment_784222

Those that complain of a lack of communication should try and get more from any other company.

Since this shot seems aimed at me, I will respond. I have tried—with different levels of success—to get better communication for a variety of other companies. From your statement, I must conclude that you have never used Accordance. While I gave all my Accordance license to a grandson, I never had reason to comment on any lack of communication from the leaders of that company. On more than one occasion, Helen Brown called me directly when I raised a question of their forum, once even from Israel.

Bob is far above the average CEO in responding to customer's inquires and complaints, but FL is not perfect in communication. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a customer expressing concern about these occasional lapses in communication.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784399#Comment_784399

I would hope Bob was watching this thread for comments, No one else has replied.

You can email Bob directly at

Bob@Faithlife.com

I've done it many times. I am content to see if anything comes of this or we continue with a crippled search capability.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784397#Comment_784397

We Mac users wanted news, but you felt that you had nothing new to tell us. I understand your perspective, but we wanted regular reports, even if it was just "we are still working on this, but we have no news." Even that would have been better than silence.

Exactly! I support this frustration 100% Jack, and it is the source of immense frustration to me. Somewhere along the line Faithlife got the idea that, in fear of saying something that does not come true, they won't say anything until there is 100% certainty. What they seem not to realize is this paralyzes their customers because no expectations are possible - we could see something happen, or never see it come to pass, or anything in between. I can't believe it is their culture that they handle their personal relationships that way, How would you feel about a friend who in response either said nothing or a non-committal reply much of the time? You would take it as "find another friend". I don't know why they are so petrified to say things like "Our goal is to have this by August...", and then rationally reset if it does not come to pass. I think if you look at the forums any time they have explained a "miss", people have been understanding. They take some flak if there was a bonehead mistake, but who wouldn't.

For me, there are some things really important to me that FL just doesn't reply on. From a customer perspective it feels like I spent a ton of money and they just don't care. Faithlife is good at addressing issues after the fact, but they are terrible at setting expectations and being transparent on what their goals and intentions are. It grates me to no end that I can't even get replies on things important to me as a customer, yet I see new things coming out that I have not even asked for - nice features to be sure, but I am crippled with some issues in the software and it apparently is super low priority, apparently because it won't help FL grow enough, or there isn't the money to address them because the money I spend on Logos/Verbum is going to some new initiative I don't at the moment care about. Maybe I am not valued as a customer any more, despite how Bob says he values us.

You are exactly right Jack - great in post-mortem communications, but as a result of this lack of transparency I have no idea where they is going with the product I care about, Logos/Verbum. Will I like it a year or two from now? Maybe - my only choice is wait and see. I have no idea what their priorities are.

I wish this would all change, it would improve my feelings immensely. I really like the product and I think FL is a good company with good people, but they make it very hard to be happy in relationship with them. I get more responses from people telling me what forum to post my requests for updates in, than I do responses from FL. While I have not decided to yet, despite all that I have invested, I think regularly about severing the relationship the communications is so terrible. Maybe FL knows that and it's why my opinion doesn't matter anymore.

Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784416#Comment_784416

I've done it many times. I am content to see if anything comes of this or we continue with a crippled search capability.

Go to Google and type "site:community.logos.com" before your search string.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784388#Comment_784388

I hope in the operational improvements the forum software is high on the list.

You might get a better response starting a new thread.

True, thanks for posting this.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784357#Comment_784357

I hope in the operational improvements the forum software is high on the list.

The forum software is on a third-party platform that is essentially unsupported; we hack changes into as we can, but have had several incidents of the person being assigned to it (and who knows it well) leave the company.

It basically works, and improving it is expensive and doesn't directly generate revenue; our long-term hope is to have the forums hosted by Faithlife discussion groups, but we know the technology isn't ready for that yet. In the meantime we don't have the resources or enthusiasm to invest in a new third-party solution (which would require more custom code to integrate with our single-sign on, user accounts, etc.).

We did explore other platforms, and considered Discourse. ChristianDiscourse.com was set up for its own purpose, as well as a form of test-bed to see if people really took to it more than this platform, but I believe our conclusion is that it's not significantly superior, or even as well suited, to be worth switching these forums to.

So the plan for forums is that once Faithlife Groups support really robust forums, we'll move them there.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784397#Comment_784397

I should note when I say that communication is not FL's strong suit that it is much improved in recent months. However—as an example—the change in the payment plans seems unnecessarily abrupt, and the reasons were not communicated very clearly in the beginning.

Jack, I appreciate the kind words about our improvements in communication, but I still think you're being unfair. This is a perfect example:

You heard about the payment plan changes within minutes of the changes being made. You heard about them, in fact, before many employees did.

It seems like you create an impossible standard:

Users: "Tell me everything and communicate openly."

Faithlife: "Okay. Here's some big news..."

Users: "Wow! That's big news! I'm completely shocked. Why did you communicate this so abruptly?!"

What are we supposed to do? Start with a post that says "Are you sitting down? Sit down. Then tomorrow I'll post some news." :-)

(I'm exaggerating to make a point... and in this particular case, I believe the payment plan info was actually 'leaked' by a salesperson who literally walked out of the meeting where we announced the changes, just hours after we even decided to make the changes, and sent an email to customers on his own initiative, before we coded the changes to the web site or wrote it up. How are we supposed to communicate earlier than that? We only thought up the change hours before you heard about it.)

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784424#Comment_784424

Somewhere along the line Faithlife got the idea that, in fear of saying something that does not come true, they won't say anything until there is 100% certainty.

We got this idea from our customers here in the forums. :-)

I've been doing this a long time, and we have never announced a single date or plan without being castigated for every eventual variation from that plan. So we don't make predictions about dates.

For me, there are some things really important to me that FL just doesn't reply on. From a customer perspective it feels like I spent a ton of money and they just don't care.

Again, I don't think you're being fair in light of our history.

We generally reply to every direct question we know the answer to. The problem is, we just don't know the answer to lots of things.

I believe that most of what you're complaining we don't reply to is questions about 'When?' or 'What is the status?'. And the answer is, we don't know. There are more than 400 people in this organization, and more than 800 involved in our partner text production company. The process of releasing a book involves us, our partner production companies, the publisher, etc. It's a big huge machine with many moving parts and lots of gating factors. The staff who hang out on the forums don't know the status of each of the 8,000 - 10,000 titles moving through production. They don't know if the only person who knows how to check this is going on vacation next week. And it's very expensive to try and chase something down, in time and resources, and even then you can be wrong. And it doesn't matter, because there's almost nothing you can do to change the result, and guessing as to delivery date is just likely to antagonize someone when the guess is wrong.

they are terrible at setting expectations and being transparent on what their goals and intentions are.

And when the question isn't about delivery dates for books, the answer is also likely "We don't know." We're changing things all the time -- all 400 of us! Teams meet weekly, and things are constantly re-prioritized, based on resources, revenue, and staff.

but I am crippled with some issues in the software and it apparently is super low priority, apparently because it won't help FL grow enough, or there isn't the money to address them because the money I spend on Logos/Verbum is going to some new initiative I don't at the moment care about. Maybe I am not valued as a customer any more, despite how Bob says he values us.

There are literally thousands of cases in our issue tracking system. Some are bugs, some are requests, some are new features. We have to balance 'fixing potholes' that annoy users with putting in new things that drive upgrades and sales. And some things which seem obvious and easy to you are actually hard to do, or expensive, or require a particular set of skills that only a few people on staff have, and they're working on other issues. We have 3.2 million registered users, and you'd be amazed to learn how diverse their interests are. (For example, some users are 100% mobile, and are angry that we spend any time on the desktop -- an antique platform! -- instead of 100% of our energy on mobile. Others say mobile is a simple tool for reading, and they bought powerful Bible software, and 100% of our time should be on fixing / improving the desktop software.)

We do value our customers -- but with millions of them, we have to spread that attention around. (Even if we just count 'big money' customers, there are thousands with significant investments, and diverse priorities. I could name four forum users who alone could keep us busy for years! :-) )

I get more responses from people telling me what forum to post my requests for updates in, than I do responses from FL.

The people who spend the most time in the forums, like Kevin, have that as part of their job. However -- partially because they spend all day in the forums! -- they don't have the answers to your questions. When you're sent to another forum, it's to increase the chance that the person who does know will answer, because teams tend to watch the forums related to their areas of responsibility. I'm sure you could just ask that Kevin or I do this dispatch for you, but we don't even always know who to contact -- the 400 people are on dozens of teams, and team assignments change frequently. (Think about the math -- if each person moved just once a year, it would mean someone was moving every day! And dev teams and marketing team members often move more than once a year.)

But maybe these cases don't cover what you're talking about. Can you give me an example of your top three unaddressed issues / unanswered questions? I promise to directly address them all.

(I know they're probably already in the forums, but I can't read the whole forum traffic -- it would literally take my entire day, and I'm going other things that I hope support you.)

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784623#Comment_784623

(I'm exaggerating to make a point... and in this particular case, I believe the payment plan info was actually 'leaked' by a salesperson who literally walked out of the meeting where we announced the changes, just hours after we even decided to make the changes, and sent an email to customers on his own initiative, before we coded the changes to the web site or wrote it up. How are we supposed to communicate earlier than that? We only thought up the change hours before you heard about it.)

Now, that was abrupt [:D]. My main point in that example was that the reasons for the change were given later in the exchange of forum posts. However, when I see how the initial announcement came down, I understand the reason for the apparent delay in providing reasons for the change.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784624#Comment_784624

<edit>

Super Tramp's short reply to my post down below was a wake up for me - I have said too much. I have become increasingly frustrated, and I have alienated others. I was mistaken to assume, when I am unhappy with the relationship with Faithlife, that it was Faithlife's job to fix that. My posture to force my views on thoughts on them made me appear to be a chronic complainer, which I am not. Again I apologize for that and any remarks which were perceived as offensive. I am unhappy with the relationship so it is my responsibility to deal with that, which I will do immediately. This will make my life and others I affected better.

I hope many blessings are bestowed on all.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784655#Comment_784655

<edit>

I am sorry to be disrespectful and unhelpful.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784677#Comment_784677

Isn't that a little over dramatic when you have millions of users, that some percentage will complain that the sun is rising tomorrow?
Are you in that percentage?

I tried to put a lot of time and specifics into my replies, I am sorry it has offended you that you felt the need to insult me in return. I thought the specifics I mentioned would, if addressed, make Logos a better product. I have said my last.

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784682#Comment_784682

Don, way off topic, but I like your new avatar. Is that from a picture you took?

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784655#Comment_784655

Super Tramp's short reply to my post down below was a wake up for me - I have said too much. I have become increasingly frustrated, and I have alienated others. I was mistaken to assume, when I am unhappy with the relationship with Faithlife, that it was Faithlife's job to fix that. My posture to force my views on thoughts on them made me appear to be a chronic complainer, which I am not. Again I apologize for that and any remarks which were perceived as offensive. I am unhappy with the relationship so it is my responsibility to deal with that, which I will do immediately. This will make my life and others I affected better.

I hope many blessings are bestowed on all.

Don, I didn't think this apology was necessary, but it's really good to see grace in action.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784655#Comment_784655

I have said too much.

I didn't think that was the case Don. I have been carefully reading all of the posts in this thread and thought you put a lot of time and effort in yours. I didn't think deleting your points was necessary as it clearly expressed your position and I was interested in what the response would be. It certainly wasn't alienating to me.

C M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784716#Comment_784716

I didn't think that was the case Don. I have been carefully reading all of the posts in this thread and thought you put a lot of time and effort in yours. I didn't think deleting your points was necessary as it clearly expressed your position and I was interested in what the response would be. It certainly wasn't alienating to me.

A gentle reminder. What's the name of this thread? Peace to all!

Lance Muller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/784188#Comment_784188

Thank you Bob for explaining FL recent decisions. You have given me confidence to continue investing in your fine products and make any necessary adjustments to my discretionary finances so that I can also manage the new down payments in the Plans. I am a Diamond owner currently and your explanations throughout the forms encourages me to keep upgrading as I had planned. Much appreciation for what you and your team do. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!