An Open Letter to Bob Pritchett

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 4:41 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Thomas Black:
I take all of my notes in a competitive product that does a huge majority of this.

 

My question is, if you already have all these features with a competing product, Does Logos really need to divert programming resources to duplicate that capability? Or should Logos keep doing what only Logos can do?

From my viewpoint, it is a cumbersome step.  Logos is right at the doorstep of something pretty awesome.  Just add printing, note manipulation flexibility, and fuse all that with handouts.  All within the same software

Whenever I have posted in the past about having embedded (or whatever you call it) software within Logos (ie, access Word or OneNote or . . .) several regular posters will respond that they "do it just fine outside of Logos and they don't need Logos to worry about making such integration possible, thank you"  let alone do they seem to believe that better Notes within Logos program itself is needed.  But when i survey the people that say that, most seem to be current or ex-programmers, people with Logos stars under their names, or whatever: they are experts in the tech environment.  Their use of multi-applications at once is no big deal to them.  They design Wiki pages and paste links so the rest of us have a clue.

 

But I am not one of those people.  I have a little bit of aptitude, but I am no expert.  Monkeying around with Word, pasting links here and there, all that is very cumbersome for me.

Oh--and the other poeple that don't seem to mind working in Word/OneNote etc, several of them have multiple monitors.  That would make working across several applications more enjoyable.  I don't have multiple monitors yet.  I am just thrilled I have a decent laptop

 

The point is, the average Joe, as well as the guy who makes lots of notes and handouts out of his bible study, could stand for some better, more robust notes and clippings features. In the very least, print and sorting capability.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 5:07 PM

Well I for one want "one stop shopping"- whether a sermon builder add-in or PBB- but I use notes "all the time" for more than just little jots of info- I build sermons and studies within notes tied to the passages I am studying.

So I would greatly appreciate a tool within L4 that is more flexible.

I am like Dan D.- I'm no computer jock- so working with 10 programs to get one result can be frustrating.

My 2 cents worth, send me a bill if I went over Big Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 5:25 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
exactly what I think notes should be - a place to store your observations into a personal style commentary.

Where I disagree with you is that my observations are usually in tables or graphic form. If you have followed any of the note-taking URL's I have posted over time, you would know this is not unusual. The popular high-lighting and diagramming tools are nothing more that subtypes of notes. Templates and graphic organizers are firmly entrenched in the education system and the Bible study methodology - I only have to pick up my favorite commentaries to find examples. I do not want to use another product and loose the search and link capabilities of Logos. I do not mind having to do a cut and paste from specialized software.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 5:27 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Since I am not an Academic, Pastor or pursuing a degree my opinion and usage is probably not that important here.

To me it is.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 5:36 PM

TomReynolds:
When I want to take notes I use MS Word. It does everything I want and more than L4 ever could (which I think is Bob's point).

I use Logos specifically for notes - notes in the form of comments and questions that can be pieced together to create Bible study lessons. In L3 my major frustration was that I could not link a note to multiple passages. In L4 my major frustration is that my most frequent note formats - templates, tables and diagrams - are no longer functional.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 5:44 PM

Dan DeVilder:
Oh--and the other poeple that don't seem to mind working in Word/OneNote etc, several of them have multiple monitors.  That would make working across several applications more enjoyable

OK, You got me.

I've used multi-display setups and I prefer to install over a network. I think the BeBox was a marvelous idea and my duplex laser printer is still new in the box over a year since purchased....        I welcome any enhancements BobP wants to add to Logos. I just hope PBB gets priority over a word processor.

EDIT:  It occured to me, I used to use a half-dozen different apps to achieve what I now have in Microsoft Office 2007 Ultimate. I love the toolbar continuity and only had to learn one program. All the old apps are now shelved and forgotten. If Logos could pull off that level of quality in notes I would be happy to leave OneNote to other projects.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 5:53 PM

Thomas Black:

Sorry, but I'm with James on this one.  Notes needs work to be workable for me for more than an odd comment here or there. 

 

I am with Thomas & James on this one also... though maybe I would have sugar coated it a bit.  Also, as has already been said. A lot of the quotes are dated to pre-4.0b, yet I would say that notes still has a way to go to fit my tastes. Hmm

I don't uses notes in L4 at all anymore. Check that I have one note.

Posts 286
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 6:01 PM

Permit me, if you will, to answer the comments that Logos should not “duplicate” wordprocessors such as:

 

  • I have a competing product that I use for notes”

  • if I want a full word-processor functionality then I will use a tool designed for that purpose”

  • I have found third party note taking programs more than sufficient to compliment the lack of notes in Logos”

  • I don't want Logos to waste resources to develop another word processor that would be clearly inferior to products already on the market”

  • When I want to take notes I use MS Word. It does everything I want and more than L4 ever could”

 

 

I can answer this alliteratively with two 'I's – Inefficiency and Inability

 

1. Inefficiency

There is an inherent inefficiency with using two (or more) programs to do the job of one in terms of

  •  
    • workflow (disrupted)

    • system resources (with two resource-hungry programs)

    • time / key presses (e.g. ALT-Tab etc)

    • inconsistent “look n feel” which can distract the brain even for a micro-second (OK – that one is a bit far-fetched, but the others are significant!)

 

 

2. Inability

This is why I put “duplicated” in quotes above. Logos needs not to duplicate Word-processors etc. but to mould and tailor the concept specifically to bible study – that would make it unique. Believe it or not there are some things which you cannot (easily) do from within third-party word-processors (without macros etc)! These make having a built in note-editor in Logos essential:

  •  
    • search from within Logos [for searches to include notes you would need to search within logos and within explorer (for multi- document notes) or within Word (if all your notes are in a single document)]

    • hyperlink effectively between other notes and locations within Logos books

    • sort canonically (according to books of bible)

 

For those having to rely on 3rd-party programs – you could be missing out!

 

James

 

 

PS

Matthew: "if you already have all these features with a competing product, Does Logos really need to divert programming resources to duplicate that capability"

 

By this argument there are lots of features Logos shouldn't dupilcate (I have other products that can print, I have other products that can search and read ebooks - does that mean Logos is redundant?).

It's not a matter of "diverting" resources - it's a matter of employing them effectively to make the "all-in-one bible study solution".

 

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 6:22 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Dan DeVilder:
Oh--and the other poeple that don't seem to mind working in Word/OneNote etc, several of them have multiple monitors.  That would make working across several applications more enjoyable

OK, You got me.

I've used multi-display setups and I prefer to install over a network. I think the BeBox was a marvelous idea and my duplex laser printer is still new in the box over a year since purchased....        I welcome any enhancements BobP wants to add to Logos. I just hope PBB gets priority over a word processor.

EDIT:  It occured to me, I used to use a half-dozen different apps to achieve what I now have in Microsoft Office 2007 Ultimate. I love the toolbar continuity and only had to learn one program. All the old apps are now shelved and forgotten. If Logos could pull off that level of quality in notes I would be happy to leave OneNote to other projects.

BeBox?  Is that pig-Latin?  I have no clue--see, this is what I am talking about, lol.  Like another language.  I admire and envy (in a Christian way . . . ) for all your ability.

 

But I would agree with you.  PBB should be a priority.  If I had resources in PBB that i could not use in L4, I would be pretty miffed, even if I was happy about a lot of other L4 things.

I am liking Office more and more.  You really need to download 2010 beta.  Even cooler.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 6:42 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Thomas Black:
I take all of my notes in a competitive product that does a huge majority of this.

My question is, if you already have all these features with a competing product, Does Logos really need to divert programming resources to duplicate that capability? Or should Logos keep doing what only Logos can do?

My statement was to demonstrate that it is being mostly done, but that Logos, I believe can do it better.  Because the next step should be Logos' step and not a competitor.  I'm fully in favor of Logos becoming the one stop shop for all of these things and more.  I would not have invested the thousands of dollars I have into Logos, nor advertised for them, nor become and MVP if I did not believe that Logos is the best overall Bible software on the market.

I want Logos to read and report on my notes as well as on my word studies, my commentaries my sermons and you name whatever comes next.  In short, I want what all of you want - Logos to just keep improving and becoming even better than it already is.  For me, notes is the next frontier.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 1210
Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 8:25 PM

Fred Chapman:

My point is this, It seems to me that many users made a purchase without knowing what they were buying. It also seems that even those who may have known what they were buying somehow thought  the feature that is important to them would be escalated to the top of the priority list.

  For me, I bought a program that was billed as incomplete, but had the committment of the company to finish and polish it while I used it.  I trust Logos, and I really loved the direction they were heading (for multiple reasons) with L4--it has rocked my world, much more so than L3 ever did.  I've had some index/BSOD woes (fixed by the great comrades I've found on this forum) and have a pile of carcasses laying around from all the chickens I've sacrificed trying to structure what I've gleaned from Logos-based resources into material I can print / present to my Sunday school class.  I'm concerned that the Mac is about to receive more programmer time, but understand there is a user community there that also deserves some attention.

  The interesting part is whether my expectation of what "complete" should be will align with where Logos draws the line.  I can't imagine that they will continue rolling out new capabilities forever...experience has shown me that I'll be seeing a new engine in a few years & will have to buy into that ... ouch ... to get the next new neat capabilities.  I'd certainly like to see better notes capability, even if that only means something like tight integration with OneNote (or suitable sub).

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Ron | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 13 2010 9:07 PM

Dan DeVilder:
But when i survey the people that say that, most seem to be current or ex-programmers, people with Logos stars under their names, or whatever: they are experts in the tech environment.  Their use of multi-applications at once is no big deal to them.  They design Wiki pages and paste links so the rest of us have a clue.

This really made things clear for me Dan.  I've largely viewed all the complaints about lack of note capability as "whining"...BUT I'm one of those tech guys.  I own and operate my own IT business, I have two monitors (and wouldn't mind having a third), It is normal for me to have 5 firefox windows open with 10-15 tabs each, and when I do my Bible study, I open Logos, e-sword, OneNote, FireFox and the current revision of the ISV Bible in Word one right after the other and happily bounce back and forth between the 5 programs without thinking anything of it.  After your comment though, I can certainly understand your point about the "average Joe" who may not be as comfortable or adept at using multiple programs to accomplish a single task.  Thanks for the insight. Smile

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James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 1:35 AM

"when I do my Bible study, I open Logos, e-sword, OneNote, FireFox and the current revision of the ISV Bible in Word one right after the other and happily bounce back and forth between the 5 programs"

 

Me too (only 15 tabs in Firefox? Is that all!!!!). But imagine the future....what it could be like when you only have to open one program and haven't conditioned yourself to accept work-arounds! How much smoother your system would be, not to merntion the other benefits of integration - with features in a application designed SPECIFICALLY for Bible study.

 

Oh and I have thought of two more 'I's following on from my previous post about the down side of having to use a third-party word-processor or note-taking app:

3. Inconvenience

Modern tech is suposed to make bible study easier and hassle-free (why shoould I need to load up multiple progs and do multiple searches - at least 2: one in Logos and one in my word processor?, etc)

 

4. Inappropriate expectations

Is it right for a company to expect users to buy expensive third-party products to properly do one of the tasks they should be providing? Or high-tech high-memory multi-monitor systems capable of smoothly handling multi-tasking (remember that some users are missionaries or bible-translators on extremely low incomes where a cheap laptop is all they can afford and no way MS Office AND logos 4)

Question for developers - I guarantee they don't use a word-processor like MS Word to write their code! It would be strange if the maker of an IDE expected users to do that simply because they didn't want to duplicate the tasks of "cut n paste", "indentation", "word-completion". No! IDEs have all these standard features plus additional ones designed specifically for the task. (I do know of some professional hard-core programmers who use notepad (or equivalent) to program, but then again I knew people 20 years ago who programmed in raw hexadecimal!! Doesn't mean it's the correct way to do things!)

Why should users have to resort to work-arounds and other software.

 

Thanks

James

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 3:05 AM

JamesHudson:
Me too (only 15 tabs in Firefox? Is that all!!!!). But imagine the future....what it could be like when you only have to open one program and haven't conditioned yourself to accept work-arounds! How much smoother your system would be, not to merntion the other benefits of integration - with features in a application designed SPECIFICALLY for Bible study.

 

In all of this, I wonder about the cost vs. payoff from a Logos Corporate standpoint.  Might that be a reason they don't want more robust notes?  Just a question, not a rebuttal.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 3:19 AM

Ronald S Keyston Jr:

Dan DeVilder:
But when i survey the people that say that, most seem to be current or ex-programmers, people with Logos stars under their names, or whatever: they are experts in the tech environment.  Their use of multi-applications at once is no big deal to them.  They design Wiki pages and paste links so the rest of us have a clue.

This really made things clear for me Dan.  I've largely viewed all the complaints about lack of note capability as "whining"...BUT I'm one of those tech guys.  I own and operate my own IT business, I have two monitors (and wouldn't mind having a third), It is normal for me to have 5 firefox windows open with 10-15 tabs each, and when I do my Bible study, I open Logos, e-sword, OneNote, FireFox and the current revision of the ISV Bible in Word one right after the other and happily bounce back and forth between the 5 programs without thinking anything of it.  After your comment though, I can certainly understand your point about the "average Joe" who may not be as comfortable or adept at using multiple programs to accomplish a single task.  Thanks for the insight. Smile

Part of me would like to learn to be more proficient using alt+tab (I use it a bit, but it is not second nature to figure how to make it efficient) and other features.  And I guess I am not really opposed to using outside software.  I just don't think it is very easy.  I DO think having multiple monitors would be a good solution.  I hope to get multiple monitors.  It won't be for quite a while, nor can we expect the normal user to.  Nor is it always feasible, ie, on the road, working on laptop, etc.

What would help, in lieu of "more robust notes", are ways to send information like:

  • selected portions of books/bibles to outside applications
    • currently we have CBV, which kind of like.  But it is only good for Bibles.  And it avoids 2 pieces of software several users use frequently and powerfully for Bible study: OneNote, and Mindmanager. 
    • I am talking about a one step: copy/paste feature.  Not copy, switch program, find place, paste.
  • send my notes, clippings, etc straight to Word, Powerpoint, OneNote, Mindmanager, etc.  Like their own version of CBV.
    • this is a win-win, imo: Logos doesn't need to do a lot more to notes/clippings--except a few important tweaks and manageability, we get to keep and make notes within Logos, and all the benefits (searchability, etc) that that represents, AND, fairly easily, we get to export (or "send", which might be the more accurate term, and more helpful function) that info to other powerful programs.

What i don't like about having to make OneNote, Word, or whatever (let along Mindmanager with its bigger required monitor space needs) the primary note taking function is the amount of monitor realestate they require.  I already feel my 17 inch monitor is too small for Logos itself (on my laptop), let alone having to share it with another program.  OneNote docks to the side, which I have used, but that also limits my ability to move around in OneNote and creates other quirky problems.  And doing what some suggest: pinning OneNote/Word over Logos, that works a bit, but again, it takes up space.

It is important to be able to see Logos and my notes at the same time.  Not having to switch back and forth and remember what I was just looking at and pondering.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 3:23 AM

JamesHudson:

Dear Bob (and his business advisors)

 

Well, I think it might have been better to have sent this letter to Bob directly. If it were me, I wouldn't answer an open personal letter placed on a public forum. If you dont have his email, post it. I think that would be the better way to handle such an issue.

I feels as if you are trying to bait Bob and, quite frankly, that is unfair. Everyone has the right to be annoyed and frustrated. However, when you post a letter like this you do very little to get any answer you want. It generates discussion but that is all. 

I for one would say that Logos has been very open and transparent in its dealings with its customers. You don't own Logos (the company) Bob does and at the end of the day if we don't like it we can go eslewhere. Having said that, I have been more than happy (overall) with Logos and their support. 

 

Please consider a better way.

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Jerry Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 4:00 AM

I feel like I am missing out. Never used notes at all, even in V3. Maybe that is why I love V4 so much. I don't miss what I don't use.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about notes. I guess I just study different.

Jerry

iMac (2019 model), 3Ghz 6 Core Intel i5, 16gb Ram, Radeon Pro Graphics. 500GB SSD.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 5:12 AM

Jerry Bush:

I feel like I am missing out. Never used notes at all, even in V3. Maybe that is why I love V4 so much. I don't miss what I don't use.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about notes. I guess I just study different.

Jerry

a little S. Illinois shout out, Jerry!  Home of the white squirrels!  Been there a few times, my mother in law was raised there.  My wife is from Mt. Carmel.  I grew up as a pk further south, in Hurst (can you locate it??).

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 5:40 AM

MarkStevens:
I feels as if you are trying to bait Bob and, quite frankly, that is unfair. Everyone has the right to be annoyed and frustrated. However, when you post a letter like this you do very little to get any answer you want. It generates discussion but that is all

 

Yes

 

 

Posts 1675
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 7:48 AM

Dan DeVilder:
In all of this, I wonder about the cost vs. payoff from a Logos Corporate standpoint.  Might that be a reason they don't want more robust notes?  Just a question, not a rebuttal.

This is a excellent point, although I do have one concern with this philosophy.

In the rapidly changing world of software, there is more than a good chance that within the next year or so, someone is going to come up with a new Bible program that everyone in the geek world has to have.

And then you see conversations online like "You're still using Logos to do that? How come you don't use "XYZ" program with all the features?" answered by "This resource is only available in Logos, so I have to use it for that..."

With this possibility in mind, the question that I would be asking myself is:

Is it a good investment of resources in developing features for 10% (or less) of the users base, that does 80% (or more) of the online talking about the software?

Just a thought...

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

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