Complaining about Logos

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This post has 28 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 259
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 20 2017 4:15 PM

Denise:

scooter, I think we're mixing up normal economics with souls economics.

In the former, you're probably right. But presuming the latter (essentially the book of Acts), Faithlife would maximize relative to the intermediate variable ... pastors' souls maximization. At that point problems occur ... quantity vs quality (two theologies, one 'go ye into the world, vs the righteous remnant pre-selected or not).

This sounds like gobbledegook (apologies to EastTN), but I suspect it's why the forum gets tangled up on pricing. What's the ultimate goal.

I understand what you are saying, Denise.  Gonna think about your theory + FL.

Posts 469
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 20 2017 5:16 PM

Alan Harris:

 If all I had to go by was the string of complaints I read I would wonder if there were any Christians using the software at all.

Pastor Alan Harris

   

It's a sad reality there will on occasion be complaints or contributions to the forum we do not like. This will be so whether Christians or non-Christians are writing. When people are frustrated, angry or worried and this comes across in what they write, surely these are times when we need to give them some space to express themselves? Some of their 'vibrant' language or expressions may even give life and vigor to the forums. Certainly, an angry person may overstep and begin to abuse, but in my reading of many posts over a long time, that is really a very small minority. In fact, most times over the years, I've seen people treating each other with courtesy and many times seen heroic patience beeing shown in solving problems.

One interesting thing about the forum is the number of times issues raised (even in complaints) have been translated by Faithlife into adjustments or improvements to the software, the supply of new resources, changes in webpages, alterations in marketing direction and so on. Faithlife has demonstrated that it listens to its customers especially those who complain. In other words, there is value in the "complaints" for Faithlife as a business and ourselves as users.   

You raise a good point and quote a relevant Scripture as to how Christians should treat each other and people generally. Yet in many churches people are not taught or encouraged to raise issues that concern them ('complaints') about the conduct of services, sermons, the behavior of elders, ministers and so on. To be silent despite discontent is often seen as a virtue, but most often it solves nothing. What an excellent thing it would be if such churches were courageous enough to create a forum where people could openly express themselves (even sometimes badly) and church management take notice. Faithlife is a business, but perhaps it may have something to teach churches today in sensitively addressing their customer/member issues.

In your post you mention that you work at a full time job so you can do your pastoral ministry. You should be applauded for your 'tent making' life, like the apostle Paul. It cannot be easy for you. As an ordinary worker, I have great respect for ministers who take that path. May you and those you minister receive an abundant blessing for what you are doing.  Take care  Paul     

Posts 1124
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 20 2017 6:24 PM

Denise:

Now, EastTN (just helping the OP get as many views as possible). Believe it (or not), I've worked on the analytics for most of your examples (competitor research). But let's ignore that. Because: Gospel economics is a maximize function. Not an optimize function. Now, some will argue quality (optimize) over quantity (maximize). But if you read your NT (OT was optimizing), you'll note the principle of maximize (quantity). Souls. Sitting around trying for high-quality souls was never the goal. And for good reason. The end was at hand.

This, I believe, is where Logosians get mixed up. Faithlife is an optimizing company. Bucks, not souls. Imagine, if they priced books as their competitors (OT, BigA, etc), and then literally charged for the features at full cost. Pastors could buy inexpensively  as needed. And feature-itus people would be faced with the obvious; value?

Denise, I think what you're saying is that FaithLife is a business, not a church. Hence "bucks, not souls." Absolutely! And by saying that, I don't mean that they're evil or unethical - just that they're in business to make money. Does Bob want to make money in a way that can help the church, and is consistent with a Christian life? I believe so.  But still - it's how he makes a living. So, yeah - at least one primary goal is "bucks."  It's a business.  And businesses can choose different market strategies.

And that's o.k. If a competitor chooses a strategy that clearly serves the market far better, FaithLife will have to adapt or die.

P.S.

Thanks for the stimulating conversation!

Posts 3771
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 21 2017 3:09 AM

I have not read from anyone that there is no place for legitimate complaints. 

I have read a reminder to watch for inordinate, disproportionate, and excessively and frequently aggressive complaints.

I have also read in the text, but more importantly in the subtext of this thread, concerns about how fellow customers communicate among themselves on the forum.

I have come to one inescapable conclusion: it is time for all of us to head straight for the nearest mirror, look in our own eyes without flinching, and chant "I am right... I am right... I am right".

Emphasis on "I". "Because," as L'Oréal puts it "I deserve it". 

Posts 486
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 21 2017 9:37 AM

Thank you, Alan, for your comments, and everyone, for a really great discussion. These forums are for Logos users to encourage and educate each other, and I appreciate the overall tone of this debate. 

There have been a couple of posts, however, which border on personal insult. People can have strong feelings about Faithlife--good, bad, and sometimes both at the same time--but let's remember to respect each other even when we disagree. 

And on behalf of the company: Thank you for your complaints. No, seriously. Honest, constructive criticism from our users is something we highly value at Faithlife. Of course, it's always encouraging for us to hear how the things we make have a positive impact on your work and lives, too. Keep them both coming! 

--Adam 

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 67
JessicaL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 21 2017 1:08 PM

scooter:

Denise:

some will argue quality (optimize) over quantity (maximize). But if you read your NT (OT was optimizing), you'll note the principle of maximize (quantity). Souls. Sitting around trying for high-quality souls was never the goal. And for good reason. The end was at hand.

This, I believe, is where Logosians get mixed up. Faithlife is an optimizing company. Bucks, not souls. Imagine, if they priced books as their competitors (OT, BigA, etc), and then literally charged for the features at full cost. Pastors could buy inexpensively  as needed. And feature-itus people would be faced with the obvious; value?

Is not FL, then, a maximizing company,  maximizing bucks by their robust prices? As they see it.  If I read U right, an optimizing FL would have lower prices + more customers.

  

scooter, whether or not FL is maximizing their profits by their high prices really depends upon their distribution of their products. Some Bible study software is optimized for use by the general public and can be purchased through outlets like Christian bookstores and Amazon which means they can sell it for less because of such high distribut ion. FL, OTOH, dowes not distribute that way. Logos is a more specialized product with features that are optimized for pastors and Bible teachers. There target customers are not as many in number as say the customer base of a program like QuickVerse that can be purchased in more places by more people. However, FL must still pay for all of the same things that other software companies must pay, like software engineers, sales and marketing and the plethora of other expenses to run a company.

I would say that based on who they are marketing to, FL has a very reasonable price for what their software will do. I think I paid only $356 for the LOGOS 7 software. The rest of my expenses have been tied up in books that are very reasonably priced considering how much effort it must take to make them all completely searchable And linked to each other via the software engine.

Posts 1
Dennis Bledsoe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 1:11 PM

My issue is I bought Wordsearch and then LOGOS bought what was mine. I use a Mac and was told that I could stream WORDSEARCH , THAT WORKS ABOUT 50% OF WHAT I HAD PURCHASED. I am not happy with what has happen, when a person buys something it is theirs, you would not be happy if your car dealer sold your car and the buyer broufgt yo a YUGO to drive and told you that you would like it better. I do not see how anyone thinks this is a Christian way of doing business, this to me like liberals doings. You take what I give you and you have no choice. Do you think that our Lord would have done business this way?

Posts 34428
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 3 2021 2:16 PM

Welcome to the forums. Hidden on the main page of the forums under Shortcuts is a link to the guidelines Forum Guidelines - Faithlife Forums (logos.com). I am sorry that you are unhappy that Logos bought out Wordsearch. Compare your situation with that of BibleWorks. BibleWorks users can use BibleWorks for as long as they own a computer with an operating system capable of running it -- then they lose all their resources and notes and must purchase a different product to start all over. As a WordSearch user, you can use WordSearch for as long as you own a computer with an operating system capable of running it ... but you have the option of converting your resources and notes to Logos, learn it at your leisure and not worry about starting all over ... you don't lose all your investment. A few minor corrections:

Dennis Bledsoe:
then LOGOS bought what was mine.

Logos did not purchase what you owned - you still own your Wordsearch as fully as ever. What they purchased from WordSearch was rights to distribute certain resources and the rights to maintain licenses for a customer base. Whether or not you ever switch to Logos is your personal choice as is when you do so.

Dennis Bledsoe:
THAT WORKS ABOUT 50% OF WHAT I HAD PURCHASED.

Faithlife has been very transparent on where they are in the conversion process of resources and notes. If you are unhappy working with the mix of converted and to be converted resources currently available, simply wait until the conversion is complete. I would expect that many WordSearch users are doing that.

Dennis Bledsoe:
how anyone thinks this is a Christian way of doing business, this to me like liberals doings

First, in the Faithlife forums we use living room politeness. Please do not insult the liberals in the room. And I, for one, fail to see anything unChristian in the business deal between WordSearch and Faithlife. Direct your anger at WordSearch for failing to produce a sustainable business model for their software, then thank them for sellout rather than leaving you up the river without a raft.

Then, comes the important part, when you get stuck trying to do something -- come to the forums for help - 24/7. Someone will be willing to help your out.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5751
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 5 2021 12:14 PM

Dennis Bledsoe:
I use a Mac and was told that I could stream WORDSEARCH , THAT WORKS ABOUT 50% OF WHAT I HAD PURCHASED.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand. Before Wordsearch was sold by LifeWay to Faithlife, did you have 50% access or 100% access to your Wordsearch library? If you had 100% before and only 50% now, what changed? If you had 50% access before the sale of Wordsearch to Faithlife, is this a complaint to LifeWay, which owned Wordsearch at the time?

Just in case, have you read through https://www.logos.com/wordsearch?

“Whoever looks upon the Crucified One sees what love is.” — Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

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