Need for Speed (mostly what this post is about) with a couple suggestions

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This post has 37 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 48
phrogger | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jan 24 2019 1:57 PM

Another day, another hour wasted trying figure out how to fix something that's not working as it should in Logos. Only to get to the end of that hour and find out in a forum that this has been a problem for nearly a decade, and no one's wiling to fix it.

I'm spending a lot of money every month paying off Logos, and will continue to...

...but I'm sure glad I kept Accordance after I "switched" a year ago. I'd love to remove those air quotes from "switched," but I never really switched—I have to keep Accordance open the whole time I'm using Logos. Logos runs way too slow on the $2000 MacBook I bought for the purpose of having a computer fast enough to run Logos — so slow I'm constantly app switching over to Accordance in frustration to copy a verse or run a simple search. (2018 MacBook Pro Touchbar Quadcore 16GB)

By slow and buggy I mean Logos is by a long shot the slowest and buggiest app of all I have on my computer. Menu button presses, very basic searches are sluggish. With a few other apps open, I can get the spinning beachball with simple screen scrolls! Right mouse clicks that don't even register because Logos was still busy thinking about the fact that I highlighted a word.

Logos developers must be frustrated by how slow their own app runs. Can the developers at Faithlife actually point me to an app on their own Macs that runs slower than Logos? This is a serious question. I've never seen an app on my Mac run this slow in 11 years.

Maybe it's just a different approach to computing. As an Apple user, I'm used to well designed apps that simply work — basic functionality is a must. Sure, slow down when you're doing difficult tasks, but Apple apps don't feel like they're falling apart simply driving down the road. Logos feels like its always on the edge of getting hung up on the most basic things.

Logos is looking more and more like it's designed to be a well-featured toy aimed at enthusiasts —  not a tool for professionals to bang out their work.

Not a hater. I want Logos to work, to win. Fix known bugs, and make up for missing basic features (see my posts on copy/paste). Almost more than anything, I need SPEED from Logos for my weekly exegetical and research deadlines. SPEED! In my life, I won't be able to learn all the advanced features that Logos presently has, but every single minute I'm wishing Logos had more SPEED on the most simple and basic user interface items.

Suggestions for speed:

1. Do what Apple does. They devote every other hardware and software release to SPEED. Like screen scrolling speed. Window opening speed. Since Logos needs to catch up, how about Logos 9 and 10 just for SPEED. I'd buy it. Just get marketing to repackage and rename some of the hundred features that people haven't even touched in 8 and it can even seem like new features.

2. Buy Accordance. The company. Maybe the reason Logos lacks SPEED is because Accordance owns it. Start a Go-Fund-Me to hire away their top engineer. Who bought the Bibleworks patents? I remember that being a fast program.

At the end of the day, I'm ranting against a software application that I greatly appreciate made by people who are excellent and talented. At the end of the day, my beef is likely caused by carefully considered business decisions at Logos OR simply some app design strategies I don't share.

Thanks for anyone who's listening!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 24 2019 3:09 PM

phrogger:
At the end of the day, I'm ranting against a software application that I greatly appreciate made by people who are excellent and talented. At the end of the day, my beef is likely caused by carefully considered business decisions at Logos OR simply some app design strategies I don't share.

And to keep things in perspective, I don't mind that Logos runs slow with the exception of the drop-down pick-lists. What puts me in a rant is the incomplete datasets and nearly non-existent support for lectionaries/multiple passages. I have seen progress, although slow, in bother the areas of your concerns and mine. As for the Apple/PC debate ... I've stayed out of that ever since the promised compiler for the first Mac failed to materialize.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 1:36 AM

phrogger:

By slow and buggy I mean Logos is by a long shot the slowest and buggiest app of all I have on my computer. Menu button presses, very basic searches are sluggish. With a few other apps open, I can get the spinning beachball with simple screen scrolls! Right mouse clicks that don't even register because Logos was still busy thinking about the fact that I highlighted a word.

Logos developers must be frustrated by how slow their own app runs. Can the developers at Faithlife actually point me to an app on their own Macs that runs slower than Logos? This is a serious question. I've never seen an app on my Mac run this slow in 11 years.

Greeting phrogger...

It is sad to read of your experiences with Logos. I am, admittedly a light user of the programme on my MacBook Pro which is similar to yours. I experience none of the problems that you are highlighting.

It might be useful for you to post your 'logs' on this thread (using the paperclip in the tool bar above) and let one of the techs see just where the bottleneck is occurring.

Although your experience I think is atypical there was some concern about slow running a few months ago across all platforms and that was eventually ameliorated by a cull of inefficient collection rules that were hogging processor time. You might like to check this area of the program on your machine.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 1:56 AM

phrogger:
By slow and buggy I mean Logos is by a long shot the slowest and buggiest app of all I have on my computer. Menu button presses, very basic searches are sluggish. With a few other apps open, I can get the spinning beachball with simple screen scrolls! Right mouse clicks that don't even register because Logos was still busy thinking about the fact that I highlighted a word.

No-one here will argue that Logos is speedy, but it's worth you knowing that slowness to this extent is very unusual. It's likely that there is something specific about the way that your machine is reconfigured, or the way that you're using Logos that is triggering the problem. When Logos is as slow as you describe, very often, it's possible to see significant speed improvements with some simple changes.

If you want us to try and help you with that, we're willing to do so. Just say so, and I'll follow up with some questions that will help us diagnose what's going on.

Posts 611
Dave Thawley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 6:39 AM

phrogger:
1. Do what Apple does. They devote every other hardware and software release to SPEED. Like screen scrolling speed. Window opening speed. Since Logos needs to catch up, how about Logos 9 and 10 just for SPEED. I'd buy it. Just get marketing to repackage and rename some of the hundred features that people haven't even touched in 8 and it can even seem like new features.

There are ways of speeding Logos up, well ok make it run as fast as it can.  For instance if you use one of the guides you can close down all result areas in the exegetical guide and then open up the particular area you want to look at things move along a lot faster. Also I use the information pane a lot but I have set my system so that I have to click instead of hover on a word before logos searches.  Also I am not sure if your machine has a SSD. If it hasn't I would really recommend this because it makes a massive speed increase. 

I am upgrading soon to a 8th Gen i7 but the general performance on my 4th gen i7 doesn't seem that bad when clicking menus, scrolling etc. It can always be faster of course but clicks cause pretty much instant responses from the computer unless I am searching. If you are getting a big lag on basic operation it may be worth speaking to Faithlife support because it seems to indicate something unusual may be going on. 

Posts 2811
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 7:59 AM

phrogger:
devote every other hardware and software release to SPEED

I can vote for that.

One of the ironies of the software is that some of the designed features have to be deleted or removed because they slow things down (fully admitted by FL), like having visual filters built even if they are not used at the time, or having a lot of collections built. At one point, I had to delete dozens of collections after I was told the fact they are resident slows the software down. That was a bummer.

So I'd vote for some attention paid to making the features (that are resident but not being used) not slow things down.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 8:58 AM

phrogger:
$2000 MacBook

Dave Thawley:
Also I am not sure if your machine has a SSD.

Kidding?! 😜

Posts 48
phrogger | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 11:05 AM

Mark B. and others, I appreciate that you've taken the time to respond!

I've run at least two versions of Logos across at least two machines, with many updates in between — all slow — so I have a hard time thinking it's some wrong config on my machine. Especially with all the other complaints of general Logos speed problems.

We are really past the era of laggy software. The eras of phones and tablets has killed people's patience for that.

Are there any former Accordance users that don't think Logos runs dog-slow?

Can anyone point to another app in the Mac App Store that runs slower than Logos?

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 11:13 AM

phrogger:
I've run at least two versions of Logos across at least two machines, with many updates in between — all slow — so I have a hard time thinking it's some wrong config on my machine. Especially with all the other complaints of general Logos speed problems.

Logs?

Posts 48
phrogger | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 11:31 AM

Mike Binks:
Logs?

I'm not really interested in being a beta-tester.

I think what I'm asking for is a culture change at FaithLife. Make your app as fast as your competitor's.

Posts 10126
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 1:05 PM

phrogger:

Mike Binks:
Logs?

I'm not really interested in being a beta-tester.

I think what I'm asking for is a culture change at FaithLife. Make your app as fast as your competitor's.

Yes, on not auto-logs (no offense to Mike)! Can't a self-respecting coder, ask the app to read/diagnose? Assist the user without the user joining Ignatius in the lion's den?

How many apps have a cadre of users who know error logs better than the app itself?


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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 3:35 PM

phrogger:
I think what I'm asking for is a culture change at FaithLife. Make your app as fast as your competitor's.

Unfortunately, other Mac users have responded quite favorably about speed. My $US600 Windows laptop is an i5-8250 with SSD, 8 GB RAM and it runs both L7 and L8 very well. So it's not about having the fastest, high-end computer available, even amongst Windows users with similar issues about speed.

If you don't want to post logs (which is about problem-solving, not being a tester), see if Customer Service can assist you.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 48
phrogger | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 3:58 PM

Hi Dave,

Thanks for responding to my post!

You're right, it's not about having fast computers. Before this, I had a slow MacBook Air — Logos ran dog-slow on that, too.

The Mac users I'd love to hear from are former Accordance users who now use Logos for their work—meaning they need it to perform well, within certain time constraints and the kind of deadlines that make sluggish apps frustrating.

Talking to Customer Service is an option. But why not rather let the good people at FaithLife spend that time working on a plan to make Logos faster, for everyone?

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Thomas Ball | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 4:01 PM

HI phrogger,

I'm sorry you're not getting the performance from Logos you're expecting. I've reached out to you over email.

 

Posts 48
phrogger | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 4:07 PM

I'd be interested to know what using Logos is like on an iPad Pro. I can't imagine the mobile version of Logos could be slow, as well. There's even less tolerance for slow apps in iOS.

Maybe this is a generational thing. What's the average age of a Logos user? Like one user said, speed is relative. What's fast for one user might be slow for another user. I'm old enough to remember when most apps ran slow, but I don't have any apps like that now (except Logos).

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 25 2019 11:21 PM

phrogger:
I'd be interested to know what using Logos is like on an iPad Pro

It's fine - in general - but it is a very different (reduced functionality from the desktop) app

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 26 2019 11:58 AM

phrogger:

Mark B. and others, I appreciate that you've taken the time to respond!

I've run at least two versions of Logos across at least two machines, with many updates in between — all slow — so I have a hard time thinking it's some wrong config on my machine. Especially with all the other complaints of general Logos speed problems.

Sorry for the delay in replying.

If you have run Logos on two decent spec machines, and it's as slow as you say on both, that means it's likely that it's the way you're using Logos that is contributing to the problem. (I'm not blaming you for that, but because of its flexibility, Logos does allow you to do things that are detrimental to performance.)

I know you don't want to upload logs, but that (and perhaps screencasts) are the only way to diagnose what's wrong, and perhaps suggest ways in which performance could be increased.

phrogger:
Can anyone point to another app in the Mac App Store that runs slower than Logos?

There simply isn't another app like Logos (i.e. there isn't another product that is essentially a collection of dozens of huge multi-gigabyte disparate databases all overlaid on top of each other), that you can interact with using a powerful graphical UI.

phrogger:
We are really past the era of laggy software.

Yes, and no. Certain apps will also be designed to push the limits of currently available hardware. Games are the obvious example. Video-editing is another. And database servers are a third.

phrogger:
Are there any former Accordance users that don't think Logos runs dog-slow?

I have Accordance, and whilst I do tend to find it a bit faster than Logos, I certainly wouldn't describe Logos as dog-slow. That's why we think it worth diagnosing the issue.

Posts 3003
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 26 2019 12:11 PM

phrogger:

Mike Binks:
Logs?

I'm not really interested in being a beta-tester.

I think what I'm asking for is a culture change at FaithLife. Make your app as fast as your competitor's.

People are wanting to help you because the vast majority are not sharing your experience.  That's why logs are necessary to try and get to the bottom of your issue.

That being said, you stated that they should make their app as fast as their competitors. That assumes that their competitor's apps do the same things that Logos does and I assure you, they do not.

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Posts 2041
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 26 2019 2:24 PM

phrogger:

Can anyone point to another app in the Mac App Store that runs slower than Logos?

Yep: iTunes. 

Years ago I was guilty of comparing the L4  experience to iTunes, But hey, back then it kind of was the same!   While iTunes hasn't improved much, Logos certainly has.  Good grief.  I have L8 on 3 machines of various vintage and they are all reasonably fast--better than iTunes by a country mile.  I want to say "snappy" but I can't really say that yet.  

In short, I am seeing offers to help you have the kind of happy experience I and others are enjoying.  Help us help you.

Posts 48
phrogger | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 29 2019 3:43 PM

Thanks Mark. I appreciate the dialogue.

Mark Barnes:
Certain apps will also be designed to push the limits of currently available hardware. Games are the obvious example. Video-editing is another. And database servers are a third.

Great examples — Logos is none of those. It's doing nothing that should push the limits of hardware.

Mark Barnes:
a powerful graphical UI.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I know what you mean. Pie charts? Lists of words? The graphics in Logos are extremely basic compared to a game. Like your above example, there are apps out there that should push the limits of hardware — word search and sorting isn't high on that list.

And, I can't emphasize enough — I'm not really talking about intense searches. My biggest problem is that Logos is slow with most basic things.

Here's a short list of the functions that Logos should be able to do eye-blink-INSTANTLY 

Typing a resource into the top search bar, with suggestions showing up — INSTANTLY

Hover over a word to see corresponding word colored — INSTANTLY

Right clicking a word and seeing more info — INSTANTLY

Scrolling — INSTANTLY

One word Bible searches — INSTANTLY

Two word Bible searches — INSTANTLY

Double clicking a word to open a new resource — INSTANTLY

Logos does none of these instantly. Some of them take 1 second, some take 2 seconds. Some initially work well (like scrolling or word hovering), but do it aggressively and Logos will stutter, then stall.

All of these are eye-blink-instant in Accordance. Because that's the argument, right? "You're complaining that Logos is slow doing things that Accordance can't even do." No, I'm complaining about things that almost all apps are expected to do instantly.

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