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Paulo Andre Viana Fidalgo | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 5 2019 9:10 AM

Hello, please. I have a special interest in the interpretation of the New Testament, but free of mythical dogmas or fundamentalist theologies after Christianity. My focus is to find the messiah of Israel, full of humanity, not divine, fulfilling the prophecies about them.

Could you indicate packages or bibliography in logos 8 that fit this goal?

Thanks.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 5 2019 12:43 PM

Paulo Andre Viana Fidalgo:
after Christianity.

Would you be able to explain what you mean by "after Christianity"? Are you referring to a specific point in time?

Paulo Andre Viana Fidalgo:
My focus is to find the messiah of Israel, full of humanity, not divine, fulfilling the prophecies about them.

Are you looking for Arian interpretations of the New Testament?

Paulo Andre Viana Fidalgo:
Could you indicate packages or bibliography in logos 8 that fit this goal?

Perhaps, after I get a better understanding of what you are looking for.

Posts 11
Paulo Andre Viana Fidalgo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 5 2019 5:43 PM

Grateful to answer. Sorry for any misconceptions and if I did not make myself understood.

I refer to the NT interpretation using only the tradition of Jewish sages: Midrash, PaRDeS, Talmud, Mishna, especially Kabbalah, Zohar, etc.

If we are going to use some temporal reference, I would propose the following hypothetical question:

Imagine if we went back in time, with the New Testament gospels in hand, in their current wording, but read and interpreted in the first century of the common age. How would Gamaliel or another sage in his day interpret the words of Jesus and his disciples on a Shabbat, considering that at that time no Western interpretive movements had yet emerged? That is, there were no Roman or Reformed theories in the world. There was no Constantine, no papacy, no Calvin, no Luther, no church fathers. It would be a hypothesis that there would only be Jews in Judea or Galilee reading a Jewish text written by Jews to Jews.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 5 2019 6:51 PM

You're thinking of things along the lines of:

No, these are not recommendations merely the results of a search to see if I understood what you want . . .

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 10636
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 5 2019 8:06 PM

Paulo Andre Viana Fidalgo:
Imagine if we went back in time, with the New Testament gospels in hand, in their current wording, but read and interpreted in the first century of the common age.

I'd think, first, you have to subtract out the Torah-only folks (Saduccees, and similar). Forget the prophets and especially Daniel. Then subtract from the Pharisee add-ons that Jesus seemed to target. Toss out the Baptists (John) who advocated the opposite behavior from Jesus. Chances are good, you're left with the priest-class, normal everyday  jews, and Herodians.  The latter are closest to your Israel, especially Antipas.

My point is you're looking at modern distinctions in your quest. Eat with thieving tax harvestors.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 450
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 5 2019 9:28 PM

Paulo Andre Viana Fidalgo:

Grateful to answer. Sorry for any misconceptions and if I did not make myself understood.

I refer to the NT interpretation using only the tradition of Jewish sages: Midrash, PaRDeS, Talmud, Mishna, especially Kabbalah, Zohar, etc.

If we are going to use some temporal reference, I would propose the following hypothetical question:

Imagine if we went back in time, with the New Testament gospels in hand, in their current wording, but read and interpreted in the first century of the common age. How would Gamaliel or another sage in his day interpret the words of Jesus and his disciples on a Shabbat, considering that at that time no Western interpretive movements had yet emerged? That is, there were no Roman or Reformed theories in the world. There was no Constantine, no papacy, no Calvin, no Luther, no church fathers. It would be a hypothesis that there would only be Jews in Judea or Galilee reading a Jewish text written by Jews to Jews.

Hi there!  Your hypothetical question is also one which over the years has personally fascinated and challenged me. Seeking answers effectively requires a wide range of resources, though the ones MJ Smith points to are very good. Finding the ways in which different sages interpreted the scriptural text whether or not they individually had a perspective on the messiah is important as well as knowing that the concept of Messiahship varied over time and according to different interpreters and religious groups. 

Here are some additional resources that can be found in the Faithlife website - 

David Mishkin - "Jewish scholarship on the resurrection of Jesus'

https://www.logos.com/product/173381/jewish-scholarship-on-the-resurrection-of-jesus

 Rabbi Itzhak Shapira - "The return of the kosher pig: The divine messiah in Jewish thought"

https://www.logos.com/product/156962/the-return-of-the-kosher-pig-the-divine-messiah-in-jewish-thought

 John Fischer - "Enduring paradox: Exploratory essays in messianic Judaism"

https://www.logos.com/product/7256/the-enduring-paradox-exploratory-essays-in-messianic-judaism

 Shirley Lucass – "The concept of the messiah in the scripture of Judaism and Christianity"

https://www.logos.com/product/50105/the-concept-of-the-messiah-in-the-scriptures-of-judaism-and-christianity

 James Drummond - "The Jewish messiah: A critical history of the messianic idea among the Jews from the rise of the Maccabees to the closing of the Talmud"

https://www.logos.com/product/32454/the-jewish-messiah-a-critical-history-of-the-messianic-idea-among-the-jews-from-the-rise-of-the-maccabees-to-the-closing-of-the-talmud

 Tom Huckel - "The Rabbinic Messiah"

https://www.logos.com/product/1104/the-rabbinic-messiah

J.A. Fitzmyer - "The Dead Sea Scrolls and Christian Messianism" has a chapter on "Qumran Messianism' (Chapter 5) 

https://www.logos.com/product/17012/the-dead-sea-scrolls-and-christian-origins , though a fuller consideration of Messianism is in the following.

J.A. Fitzmyer - "The One who is to Come" 

https://www.logos.com/product/49313/the-one-who-is-to-come

I hope that some of these suggested resources may be of use to you.  Best wishes  Paul  

Posts 11
Paulo Andre Viana Fidalgo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 6 2019 6:28 AM

Dear, thank you very much for paying attention to my request.

That's exactly what I'm looking for. I'm getting ready for acquisitions and studies, within my means.

MJ Smith, yes, that's right. Any literature will be very welcome, it will help a lot in my development. I will arrange the acquisitions.
If you know anything within LOGOS that helps with research, due to the ease of library relationships, thank you very much.

Thank you one more time.

Posts 855
Ron Corbett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 17 2019 8:20 AM

Dear Paulo,

I appreciate your desire for truth and your willingness to ask questions on this forum. I hope you find many great tools here. Your question is familiar to me and while I do appreciate your concerns, this issue raises some concerns for me as well. If I may ...

1] Your yearning for something "pure" is commendable. Always seek the Lord for hIs mind on how to understand and walk out your faith in Messiah.  I know that you will at the same time remember that this is a 'sin sick' world in which we all as finite human beings must own our own shortcomings. We need each other; we must respect and honor each other for the strengths HE has imparted to each and we will need to "chew the meat and spit out the bones". This because ALL human writers are equally flawed and we are all missing some pieces of the puzzles. Selah.

2] The concern about supercessionist influences upon biblical interpretation is a historical fact. It is still being addressed by many credible modern scholars [Brueggemann (who I was reading this morning) and many others]. See bibliographical note below.

3] There can be problems using "original or so called early" Jewish texts. Some are difficult to date and others are already at that time reactionary. One cannot think that some of these writings are unaffected by human agendas, social and political influences and even, yes, religious biases. 

4] My words are being written in haste and I am sure I am not expressing myself as well as I might hope to, but my point is that we need guidance dealing with these matters. There are MANY modern scholars who are aware of these concerns of yours and who DO seek to be appropriately informed by the Jewish writings that are pertinent - Dr. Michael Brown, Dr. Michael Heiser, Darrel Bock, Dan Juster and scores of others. I recommend Craig Keener for another. But if you scan the offerings on the Logos web site carefully, you can find so many others. 

5] My last word is from a deep place of concern in my heart. I have been in the Messianic world for abut 40 years now and I want to encourage you to keep growing in your walk with the Lord. Do not be afraid of Christian writings nor reject them as "irrelevant" to you. There are many tools necessary for the building of a sure and lasting structure. We (imperfect as we all are) need New Covenant lenses in order to more fully appreciate and celebrate Yeshua. The New Covenant He established is from heaven and it is absolutely NOT entirely inconsistent with the Jewish world in which He and the apostles lived. For me [and I expect for you] He is high and lifted up, He is our foundation and may we seek to keep Him central in our studies and worship. 

Ron Corbett

Brueggemann, Walter. Theology of the Old Testament: Testimony, Dispute, Advocacy. Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, 2005. [see p.104]

Posts 11
Paulo Andre Viana Fidalgo | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 18 2019 7:39 AM

Dear Ron,

Thank you, brother, for your guidance words and the bibliographic indication, I will seek it.

Truly, as a Christian he could not disregard the Christian writings, nor those of the serious academy. On the contrary, my scripture studies are in the light of Spiritism, and we are oriented to seek an interpretation that unites the ties of the 3 revelations to humanity (a universal and borderless Harizah), where we consider all contributions, especially those exempt from fundamentalisms and dogmas, where nothing is lost, but is completed and invites us to a deep spiritual alliance, in this sensitive moment of transition that our planet is going through.

The open topic was to broaden my access to the more Jewish-focused New Testament Logos base (and help me with the right investments, as there are so many package options, specific to the theme), because I understand that someone would surely have found it. something similar to my intentions.

Really grateful for your concerns.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 2 2020 6:21 PM

Searching Logos.com for rabbi Jesus => https://www.logos.com/search?query=rabbi%20Jesus&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all includes:

MJ. Smith:

You're thinking of things along the lines of:

Searching Logos.com for rabbi thought => https://www.logos.com/search?query=rabbi%20thought&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all includes:

Keep Smiling Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 2 2020 7:28 PM

Paulo Andre Viana Fidalgo:
I refer to the NT interpretation using only the tradition of Jewish sages: Midrash, PaRDeS, Talmud, Mishna, especially Kabbalah, Zohar, etc.

I'm sure you're aware that the "Kabbalah, Zohar, etc." portion of this request creates some serious problems - both with the amount of New Age materials and with the historical dating of Kabbalah, Zohar and related materials.  It's not exactly what you are looking for but is, at least, legitimate material - think of the works of:

  • Raymond Llull 
  • Pico della Mirandola
  • Johann Reuchlin
  • Francesco Giorgi
  • Paolo Riccio
  • Balthasar Walther
  • Athanasius Kircher
  • Sir Thomas Browne
  • Christian Knorr von Rosenroth
  • Johan Kemper
  • Adorján Czipleá

for "Christian" Cabala. I can not find any works from these authors, only mentions in anthologies. This is in keeping with the relative lack of works from the mystical tradition within the Logos catalogue.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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