Please Help me with Inductive Bible study

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This post has 55 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 7:39 AM

Rosie Perera:
4) The next important connecting phrase is "in order that." This one also sets up a relationship between two clauses. A in order that B means that A needed to happen for B to be able to happen. Some examples: "I brought my umbrella in order that I wouldn't get rained on." Or "I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments." (Col 2:4) Paul needed to say this or his readers might have been vulnerable to being deluded. I will explain later why in Rom 6:4, clause A is "We were buried with him by baptism into death" and clause B is the last of the highlighted clauses: "We might walk in newness of life" not the second one. (Basically, it's because the second clause is subordinate to the last one.)

Rosie, let me first complement you for the excellent work you put forth to help Tes.

You are very correct that "in order that" subordinates its clause to another one. However, I have a revision to suggest for how to understand "in order that." It is a translation of ἵνα most commonly used to denote purpose. To use your examples you could write "I brought my umbrella for the purpose of not getting rained on" or "I say this for the purpose that no one may delude you with plausible arguments." The point is not that A must happen for B to come to pass (although that may be true) but that the author/God is being intentional with his actions. There are other ways to avoid getting wet besides using an umbrella, staying inside or using a poncho could work as well Smile. In Paul's letter to the Colossians he wrote with the purpose of preventing them from being duped; it was not A) a guaranteed of success or B)  a preclusion of another agent prevent the deluding.

See Wallace pp 678-9 and 749 for some more examples and other examples of how ἵνα is used.

Posts 42
JM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 7:56 AM

Rosie,

'Ow do you know so much about sparrows?

--From Monty Python's Holy Grail for those of you's who haven't seen the movie...Rosie, I'm pretty sure you have ...And I know Dan has...Big Smile

Posts 3195
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 9:26 AM

David Beard:
Tes, I have found Morris Proctor's Inductive Bible Study helps to be a terrific advantage on sequences and structure set-ups. He gives you passage guide ideas etc. I have only recently acquired it and am still playing around with it, but it has been very helpful in setting up L4 in a useable inductive format. DAB

Thank you David,I have ordered it.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 3195
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 11:43 AM

Dear Rosie,I was  Speechless to express ,the efforts you have made to make it clear for me.I am now very glad the dear brothers have helped me to express their appricaiation:.You are one of the most valuable precious ones who helped me to enjoy the Logos software,I understand you have a very little time to sleep to help us, I say again Heb 6:1o ,I say again thank you very much.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 1:13 PM

Kevin Becker:

Rosie Perera:
4) The next important connecting phrase is "in order that." This one also sets up a relationship between two clauses. A in order that B means that A needed to happen for B to be able to happen. Some examples: "I brought my umbrella in order that I wouldn't get rained on." Or "I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments." (Col 2:4) Paul needed to say this or his readers might have been vulnerable to being deluded. I will explain later why in Rom 6:4, clause A is "We were buried with him by baptism into death" and clause B is the last of the highlighted clauses: "We might walk in newness of life" not the second one. (Basically, it's because the second clause is subordinate to the last one.)

Rosie, let me first complement you for the excellent work you put forth to help Tes.

You are very correct that "in order that" subordinates its clause to another one. However, I have a revision to suggest for how to understand "in order that." It is a translation of ἵνα most commonly used to denote purpose. To use your examples you could write "I brought my umbrella for the purpose of not getting rained on" or "I say this for the purpose that no one may delude you with plausible arguments." The point is not that A must happen for B to come to pass (although that may be true) but that the author/God is being intentional with his actions. There are other ways to avoid getting wet besides using an umbrella, staying inside or using a poncho could work as well Smile. In Paul's letter to the Colossians he wrote with the purpose of preventing them from being duped; it was not A) a guaranteed of success or B)  a preclusion of another agent prevent the deluding.

See Wallace pp 678-9 and 749 for some more examples and other examples of how ἵνα is used.

Thank you muchly to Rosie and Dominick and Kevin. I really appreciate your "sharings" with the Logos Community.

You, Kevin, just encouraged me to order Wallace which I did. Logos ought to give you a bit of a discount on your next order for promoting this book. *smile* Will be so happy to have it in my library when it comes and I eagerly look forward to using it. Even though I have Portfolio and most of the other important study "stuff" that scholars need, I will quite pleased when "Beyond the Basics" arrives.

Yours in Christ, ........... Mel

Postscript!

A Very, Very Sad P.S. addressed to Logos and Bob!

Bob, I am one of those who is always speaking up positively for Logos, in some posts even defending Logos. Just love L4. Hardly ever use L3 except for sentence diagrams and pbbs...

HOWEVER, I am extremely disappointed in having to pay $21.50 American Dollars and/or $22.20 Canadian Dollars to get this book! It is so unnecessary, and it puts me behind in my family budget book budgeting allowance because even though it is a gift from my wife to me (She's Beautiful! *smile*) ..... it still has to come out of the family budget and that delays the time before I can affort my next Logos book. Am signed up for a fantastically lot of pre-pubs, so if one comes due too soon it will cause a bit of a difficulty in my family budget.

And! It is SO unnecessary.... And! You are hurting Logos sales in a sense by our having to spend money on expensive postage....

Please make this book a download so others do not have to suffer the same fate! Please.

Wallace is a birthday gift from my wife about two weeks early because I've been following this post. We live on a pension, and now - after I finish this post - I have to walk into the kitchen where she's getting supper ready and inform her that her $41.26 birthday gift is actually costing her 63.56 with the United States Postal Service and Canada Post splitting the difference and chuckling over their great unexpected gain! *smile* I'm still joking a little, but, Bob ........... this has to stop ..... I will probably have to pay duty and sales tax on it also. People all over the world need the "download" option.... Please!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 1:28 PM

Milford,

I'm glad to hear that you have ordered Wallace. It's the best intermediate Greek grammar on the market IMHO.

The reason why postage is charged is that it is a Galaxy Software title. Logos cannot sell it online any more than they can the IVP Essentials library because of the restrictions put on them by the actual publisher.

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 2:17 PM

Kevin Becker:

Milford,

I'm glad to hear that you have ordered Wallace. It's the best intermediate Greek grammar on the market IMHO.

The reason why postage is charged is that it is a Galaxy Software title. Logos cannot sell it online any more than they can the IVP Essentials library because of the restrictions put on them by the actual publisher.

Thank you very much for your post, Kevin.  So I guess that Logos has their hands tied behind their backs on this one.  I hope that possibly someday Galaxy would revise it's way of doing things and maybe might change their policy.  I imagine that Logos has to pay Galaxy something for my ordering their book through Logos anyway, since I think that Logos itself does the mailing of the product. 

My Church's publishing house is Concordia Publishing House.  Concordia, I'm sure, gets a bigger profit if people would buy it directly from them.  However, they have chosen to list their products at Logos also.  Just looked at the commentary on Revelation (by Louis Brighton - a fantastic commentary) on the Logos Site and that also comes for Logos 3 on a CD.  When I ordered that, I put it in my Logos 3, synchronised licenses, and it dowloaded immediately onto Logos 4.

Just now I ran that book through to the Logos Site's purchase page to see what would happen.  Blows my mind.  I ordered it from Concordia directly because as a retired pastor (they call it Emeritus  -   *smile*) ................    I get a very nice discount although I am completely loyal to Logos for my non-CPH purchases ....        just discovered that the postage for that book is even higher!            Wow!

Thanks for writing, Kevin.

Bob, please ignore what I said in my post about it being so unneccesary -    I should have realised you have no option available at the present time   .....

hope you can get that option soon for the future .........     Then, we Logos users wouldn't "have to buy a dead horse" over and over again!      *smile*

Yours in Christ,         Milford

 ....   although now wondering what there's such a difference in the postage for both a single CD????????????????????????????????????

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 453
Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 3:48 PM

Tes,

There's some good reading in your base package via L&N via the "Case" domain that will help you understand how some of these work. Check out the following links:

logosres:louwnida;ref=LouwNida.90

logosres:louwnida;ref=LouwNida.89.38-89.39

Paste the text into your command bar and hit return and the proper domain will appear. Specifically I believe you're most interested in F (90.21-28) and L (90.51-55), but other parts of the domain are also relevant. Then there's the relation domain and specifically 89.x... this should give you a better understanding then most English speakers have about the English side of things, and a great picture into the Greek mapping to English for these kinds of terms. This is by no means all you can do to grow in your understanding of the Word and how it maps to the kind of flow and structure you want to understand, but I think it's a great start!

I hope this is helpful for you. I personally don't think you need to have had even a single Greek class to understand this, but I'd love to hear your feedback (I've had some Greek, but by no means can I pick up the GNT and just read). 

Posts 19280
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 6:18 PM

Dominick Sela:

(a) Since we know sentence diagramming is coming, have you considered putting this on the wiki so it's not lost?  It could be an excellent intro to sentence diagramming, or just in an area of general bible study tips. 

I hadn't thought of that, but perhaps we could put an area of general bible study tips and links back to the forum if the topic was fully written up here rather than duplicating it on the wiki. However with some of th excellent suggestions from you and others, I could edit it to improve it. In any event, I've marked it as a favorite post so I can easily come back and find it and do something with it.

Dominick Sela:

Rosie Perera:
So this clause "all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death" is the A in the causal relationship which "therefore" sets up, and B is "We were buried with him by baptism into death." In this case, the causal relationship seems to be that B is merely a further elaboration of what A means. Again, it's not that A caused B to happen, but because we know A is true, then we understand that B is true too.

Re: the bolded text, I might humbly add to this explanation that there is a little more than just a further elaboration, as it basically says, with the qualifiers removed,  "We were baptized in his death" therefore  "we were buried into death".  It seems that is a useful thought to contemplate, how baptism implies (therefore) death. The verse in 6.4 really builds on the prior verse, it's not just an elaboration IMHO which may just be my own view on the topic (and I have NOTHING else to add to the exhaustive job you did!).

Yes, you're quite right, though it's probably a quibble over wording. I should have left out the word "merely" as that implies I thought "elaboration" was a trivial rewording of something. But it's not. It's essential here. (Then again "mere" doesn't necessarily trivialize what comes after it, as we know well from C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, which might just as well have been titled Essential Christianity since that's pretty much what he means by it.). Yes, baptism implies burial, but I was trying to explain (clumsily) that grammatical causation doesn't always mean what we think of when one thing causes another (e.g., "I pressed the button which caused my umbrella to open"). It's more subtle than that. In the very baptism lies the burial into death. It isn't that baptism causes burial into death. It is in some mysterious spiritual sense equivalent with burial into death (we don't literally die when we're baptized). So here "therefore" is could be translated "which means that" or "which implies that."

Kevin Becker:

You are very correct that "in order that" subordinates its clause to another one. However, I have a revision to suggest for how to understand "in order that." It is a translation of ἵνα most commonly used to denote purpose. To use your examples you could write "I brought my umbrella for the purpose of not getting rained on" or "I say this for the purpose that no one may delude you with plausible arguments." The point is not that A must happen for B to come to pass (although that may be true) but that the author/God is being intentional with his actions. There are other ways to avoid getting wet besides using an umbrella, staying inside or using a poncho could work as well Smile. In Paul's letter to the Colossians he wrote with the purpose of preventing them from being duped; it was not A) a guaranteed of success or B)  a preclusion of another agent prevent the deluding.

See Wallace pp 678-9 and 749 for some more examples and other examples of how ἵνα is used.

Thank you for that much clearer explanation. I was trying to avoid needing to look at the Greek words, since I wanted to show that a language novice could still get a lot out of a text just by looking at the English translation and working with the sentence structure (and that was the gist of Tes's question anyway). But that doesn't mean the person doing the explaining can't refer to his or her own knowledge of the underlying Greek in order to give a better example in English. I don't know Greek so I failed on that point, but you picked up the slack and gave a wonderful elucidation. I loved the way you stayed with my umbrella and rain analogy. Smile And thanks for the recommendation for Wallace. It's already on my list of things to buy, but has been lower priority because it's CD only and I'm still hoping that one day Logos will be able to make all of its partner products available as downloads.

JM:

'Ow do you know so much about sparrows?

Well, you have to know these things when you're an MVP, you know. BTW, it's swallows. And do you mean African or European swallows?

JM:

--From Monty Python's Holy Grail for those of you's who haven't seen the movie...Rosie, I'm pretty sure you have ...And I know Dan has...Big Smile

Here's the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2R3FvS4xr4  Yes, I own it on DVD, as well as Life of Brian, Meaning of Life, and the entire set of all the Flying Circus episodes. And I just bought and watched for the first time the oratorio "Not the Messiah" which was produced to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Monty Python. In the musical genre of Handel's Messiah, but based on the story line from Life of Brian, it stars Eric Idle with appearances by Michael Palin, Terry Jones and Terry Gilliam. It is utterly enjoyable if you liked Life of Brian. Filled with classic Monty Python silliness and some unexpected surprises (one of which isn't even hinted at in the trailer).

EDIT: Ha! The formatting of that post was kind of messed up so I just had to edit it and when I looked at the HTML I saw immediately why. I had to edit out some span junk that ended with this: </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>. Given the Monty Python theme, it reminded me of spam-spam-spam-spam-spam-spam-spam-spam-eggs-and-spam. Smile

Posts 42
JM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 6:31 PM

Rosie Perera:
BTW, it's swallows. And do you mean African or European swallows?

Well...I don't know.  Ahhhhhhhhhhh...

I stand corrected.  I really thought I typed swallows...rats!  I wore out my VHS copy of The Holy Grail memorizing the movie line for line and then purchased the DVD, AND I saw Spamalot on Broadway too...Harumph!  I didn't get a harumph from you...Big Smile  Now where is that from?

Posts 19280
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 10 2010 7:29 PM

JM:

I wore out my VHS copy of The Holy Grail memorizing the movie line for line and then purchased the DVD, AND I saw Spamalot on Broadway too...Harumph!  I didn't get a harumph from you...Big Smile  Now where is that from?

Oh yes, I saw Spamalot on Broadway too. Forgot about that.  And I also have Monty Python's Contractual Obligation Album (the unexpurgated version, the one with the "Farewell to John Denver" track) on cassette somewhere, and most of their other albums on CD, and The Complete Monty Python's Flying Circus: All the Words (2 vols) and The First 20 Years of Monty Python. I even saw the virtually unknown Jabberwocky (a Michael Palin / Terry Gilliam collaboration) in the theatre once. So yeah, if there's one thing I'm almost as much of an addict of as I am of the Logos forums, it's Monty Python.

(BTW, pretty much all the sketches are available for free on YouTube on the Monty Python channel now. After years of everyone posting pirated versions, they decided to get back at everyone; they made an official channel and are giving away all their content for free, in high quality video. So there! Take that, pirates!)

And you asked where's harumph from? It's onomatopoeia, from the sound of someone clearing his throat.

Posts 502
Randall Hartman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 2:19 AM

Thanks everyone for this post.  In many ways this post illustrates Logos forums at its very best!  Logos should somehow take this thread and use it to highlight the great value of these forums.

Posts 3195
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 11:17 AM

Mike S.:
Paste the text into your command bar and hit return and the proper domain will appear. Specifically I believe you're most interested in F (90.21-28) and L (90.51-55), but other parts of the domain are also relevant. Then there's the relation domain and specifically 89.x... this should give you a better understanding then most English speakers have about the English side of things, and a great picture into the Greek mapping to English for these kinds of terms. This is by no means all you can do to grow in your understanding of the Word and how it maps to the kind of flow and structure you want to understand, but I think it's a great start!

Mike ,I didn't know I have such in my Logos 4 resource,Thank you very much.My quetion is:is it only explantation or there is a specifif link to particular verses.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 453
Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 11 2010 9:04 PM

Tes:
Mike ,I didn't know I have such in my Logos 4 resource,Thank you very much.My quetion is:is it only explantation or there is a specifif link to particular verses.

If you have Platinum, you have it. Just put the text in the command box:

logosres:louwnida;ref=LouwNida.90

Then hit enter. 

 

 

Posts 3195
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 12 2010 4:00 AM

Mike S.:
Just put the text in the command box:

Mike, I am very excited about this resource I have it as you have said.Where and how  am I able to put the text? since there is ''Louw Nida 90.1'' I think this is a very important resource ,which I have missed up to now.Please help how to operate it.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 3195
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 12 2010 4:05 AM

Mike S.:
Specifically I believe you're most interested in F (90.21-28) and L (90.51-55), but other parts of the domain are also relevant. Then there's the relation domain and specifically 89.x..

Mike,would you please explain me further ,I have no idea ,what this is all about.

Blessings in Christ.

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