Unacceptable - Bob Pritchett Please personally oversee getting this resouce fixed with high priority

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This post has 38 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 5859
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Dec 4 2020 4:15 PM

This is the wrost resource I have seen put out by FL, it looks as though nobody checked it or if they did they couldn't care less how poor a conversion job has been done on it. And if someone did check it and sign of on it then Bob you should take the advice of your book title and "Fire someone today!" because this is not how you make your business a success when you are trying to win over customers who were forced over to your product without a say in the matter.

FL your effort at bringing over the Strong's Talking Geek and Hebrew Dictionary from WS to Logos is a disgrace. It makes E4 produced resources look professional.

Yes I know this is a two step process first to epub and then later to Logos Research Edition but this hang yur head in shame output form a team that once put pride into their work. This should have been held back until a full Logos resource was done. One of the main features of the resource simply does not work as an epub - in case you missed it FL there is a big hint in the title "Talking"!  Secondly the formatting is non-existence in the front matter of the resource, it's just a mishmash of text and it's not much better in the dictionary proper.

Below is what it currenlty looks like for a dictionary entry followed by what it looked like in WS. I hope when you convert this to a full Logos resource the linking and formatting is at least as good as what WS offered if not better. This is not the only WS resource you have botched by turning it into an epub when it should never have been done so, FL you have failed to show proper respect to WS users by taking the resources they purchased from WS over the years and turning them into this sort of junk that of no use and then will turn around and say "Hey are we great we've converted all your resources over to Logos in record time, give us a round of appluse". I am sorry but it needs to be said this is a disgrace. There will be some who don't like me calling a disgrace, they will get there back up and want to have a go at me for being honest, but if it it looks like a disgrace and acts like a disgrace within the Logos environment in terms of  its inablilty to function as to how it was intended to by WS when the took care of the resource then it is a disgrace.

Posts 5859
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2020 7:31 PM

I know it’s not done yet I stated that I’m my post, that does not make  what has been dished up acceptable. If I was Bob Pritchett I would be absolutely ashamed my company had served up something like this. it is not an acceptable as it stands as an interim resource. Full stop.  it should never have been put in eBook format It this is the best FL can do with eBooks. It’s an absolute joke and waste of space on users systems in this format and gIves the impression FL think they can dish up anything at anytime and then just say we’ll fix it up down the track.

SineNomine:

Posts 9527
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 4 2020 8:55 PM

Faithlife epub books are based on supplied files with automatic tagging and little else done. If this were the final product I'd be upset, too, but it isn't. FL is making a good faith effort to get former WS users back to having their books ASAP. You've read the discussions. I'd rather FL NOT spend time prettying up versions that will soon be replaced. I think they have taken the right path.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 5859
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 4:15 AM

Mark you have not read what I said and are simply responding with the party line. This and other WS books should not be released as E-books. I have not asked for the e-book to be made to look pretty.  I have said a resource like this should have been done properly in the first place.  I have said FL should have never released a resource like this as an e-book. It is rubbish. I dont know how many more ways I can state what I am saying without someone trying to accuse me of saying something i haven’t said. it should have been held back and not released until a full Logis version was built What is the point of giving people useless eBooks that have no functional value. As it standards it just a digital paper weight. Bob Pritchett should be ashamed he has allowed on his watch the standards of this company to drop so low that putting our resources like this is being painted by the spin do tors as a win for customers. It is not a win. It’s a waste of time putting it out in this format. 

Mark Smith:

Faithlife epub books are based on supplied files with automatic tagging and little else done. If this were the final product I'd be upset, too, but it isn't. FL is making a good faith effort to get former WS users back to having their books ASAP. You've read the discussions. I'd rather FL NOT spend time prettying up versions that will soon be replaced. I think they have taken the right path.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 5:33 AM

DIsciple II:
Bob Pritchett should be ashamed he has allowed on his watch the standards of this company to drop so low that putting our resources like this is being painted by the spin do tors as a win for customers. It is not a win. It’s a waste of time putting it out in this format. 

Goodness, Disciple. Ok, get mad at me too. "But" ...

1. In the middle of a life-threatening pandemic .. they have kids and family too? Struggles.

2. 'Pulling it off' between digitizing a major competitor's stock, and a major update too? And in FL style (they could have just given WS'ers some discounts like BW, put BH on the 2021-schedule, and enjoyed another missing football game).

Now, I agree, the volume shouldn't have reached customers, judging from the other threads, as well as yours. I regard that as their 80%-rule ... get the process-success up to 80%, and start planning another feature.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1562
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 5:40 AM

Mark Smith:

Faithlife epub books are based on supplied files with automatic tagging and little else done. If this were the final product I'd be upset, too, but it isn't. FL is making a good faith effort to get former WS users back to having their books ASAP. You've read the discussions. I'd rather FL NOT spend time prettying up versions that will soon be replaced. I think they have taken the right path.

Mark, thank you for your good-faith effort to respond.  I'm thankful for everything Faithlife has done and continues to do to provide all of us prior WordSearch customers with the opportunity for a good and solid path forward.  Some missteps and mistakes will inevitably be made in the migration of WordSearch resources to Logos, but from where I stand, Faithlife has been very honorable in their effort to provide this migration for WordSearch customers as quickly as possible.  

Posts 5859
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 5:48 AM

This is not even 80% success and 80% success is not good enough. If they ask us to pay $100 for a product they wouldn‘t accept 80% payment from us. They would expect 100% delivery of paymemy. Why should we accept less than 100% quality?

Pandemic is not a reason for making poor business decisions about th quality of product they deliver when they are delivering a completely electronic product. And why should we tip-toe around the tulips and pretend they have delivered something good when it is clearly of an unacceptable level of functionality and quality.

Phil Gons has in the past made bold statements of welcoming all feedback, he says he does not forget what it is to be on the other side of the fence as a customer so FL is getting the feedback they say they want to hear rather than sugar-coated nonsense that avoids the elephant in the room. Fl have dropped their standards a low I never thought I would see from them.

Denise:

DIsciple II:
Bob Pritchett should be ashamed he has allowed on his watch the standards of this company to drop so low that putting our resources like this is being painted by the spin do tors as a win for customers. It is not a win. It’s a waste of time putting it out in this format. 

Goodness, Disciple. Ok, get mad at me too. "But" ...

1. In the middle of a life-threatening pandemic .. they have kids and family too? Struggles.

2. 'Pulling it off' between digitizing a major competitor's stock, and a major update too? And in FL style (they could have just given WS'ers some discounts like BW, put BH on the 2021-schedule, and enjoyed another missing football game).

Now, I agree, the volume shouldn't have reached customers, judging from the other threads, as well as yours. I regard that as their 80%-rule ... get the process-success up to 80%, and start planning another feature.

Posts 9
Jerry Thompson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 6:14 AM

I kind of wish they had rather waited before releasing this one. When it first showed up I did the search in the Library and opened it up and saw that in that state it was unusable. I would have waited patiently for it to have been completed before being released. I was unaware of what 
ebook" was until now. I had seen the post about books being released to "ebook" but for some reason it did not sink in, or I had forgot, that the book being released into "ebook" would not be complete.

FL has taken on a huge task and I appreciate all they have done. Getting over the shock of moving over from WS to Logos took some time. When I first installed Logos I did not thing I would like the program and was then convinced in my mind I would continue to use WS. But the more I used Logos the more I have come to like it. Still having to get over having to type in the verse, rather than a drop down box to select book, chapter and verse. But the shortcuts do help.

Posts 5426
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 7:05 AM

.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 9151
LogosEmployee

DIsciple II:
wrost resource ... a disgrace ... botched ... junk

DIsciple II:
have a go at me for being honest

Disciple II, I hear your honest feedback loud and clear. It is clear you think this resource is unacceptable in its current state and should never have been shipped.

DIsciple II:
it looks as though nobody checked it

This is correct. IIRC, this was part of a batch of 600 automatically-converted resources that all shipped the same day. They were not individually checked; the output from the EPUB converter was shipped as-is.

As you already stated, you know we are proceeding with a two-phase (really, multi-phase) process: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/193938/1117970.aspx#1117970

We are operating under the assumption that it was better to have "something" out there, rather than nothing. (I can go into more details about why we made that choice, if desired.) We knew we were taking a risk that could lead to low-quality resources being available for a few weeks or months until they could be upgraded to Logos editions, but we judged that risk was acceptable. In this case, that was an error.

It was certainly never our intent to antagonise our loyal customers (and our new Wordsearch customers) by releasing an "unacceptable" resource as part of this process. I'll take your feedback back to the team as we continue to find the right balance between delivering Ebook resources quickly and delivering high-quality Logos editions.

Posts 714
Michael Kinch | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 7:40 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

DIsciple II:
wrost resource ... a disgrace ... botched ... junk

DIsciple II:
have a go at me for being honest

Disciple II, I hear your honest feedback loud and clear. It is clear you think this resource is unacceptable in its current state and should never have been shipped.

DIsciple II:
it looks as though nobody checked it

This is correct. IIRC, this was part of a batch of 600 automatically-converted resources that all shipped the same day. They were not individually checked; the output from the EPUB converter was shipped as-is.

As you already stated, you know we are proceeding with a two-phase (really, multi-phase) process: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/193938/1117970.aspx#1117970

We are operating under the assumption that it was better to have "something" out there, rather than nothing. (I can go into more details about why we made that choice, if desired.) We knew we were taking a risk that could lead to low-quality resources being available for a few weeks or months until they could be upgraded to Logos editions, but we judged that risk was acceptable. In this case, that was an error.

It was certainly never our intent to antagonise our loyal customers (and our new Wordsearch customers) by releasing an "unacceptable" resource as part of this process. I'll take your feedback back to the team as we continue to find the right balance between delivering Ebook resources quickly and delivering high-quality Logos editions.

Good job Bradley. I think you responded to this concern in the spirit of Christ. I think Logos/Faithlife is doing a great job. I had a lot of money invested in both Logos and Wordsearch.  You have protected my investment in Wordsearch and for that I am extremely grateful. In addition you provided Wordsearch users with deep discounts especially in base packages. I could list many other things that you have done for us but let me just say thank you for all your hard work. Yes there are some things you could have done better but honestly as I look back at some of the things I have done there are many of them that I could have done better - a lot better. Press on my friends at Faithlife. 

Posts 1183
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 7:57 AM

Worth noting you can get the functionality of this resource in the exegetical guide or the info panel. Both laid out very nicely. Hope that helps in the mean time.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 12106
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 8:17 AM

I just looked at the resource I received for free in my Logos library.

DIsciple II:
Below is what it currenlty looks like for a dictionary entry followed by what it looked like in WS. I hope when you convert this to a full Logos resource the linking and formatting is at least as good as what WS offered if not better.

Well, even in your screenshots the actual dictionary entry in the Logos resource looks very much like the WS resource (I like the colors and the overall look and feel in Logos more, but that's a question of taste and thus neither here nor there). This is a lexicon, and even though it's still an edition:eBook, it is type:lexicon in my library and has the relevant Strong's index which makes it functional in Logos.

  • Just as in WordSearch, you can directly go to an indexed entry, or have it opening from a bible with Strong's index. This is much better than the usual eBook functionality and makes me wonder why you pick on this resource.

  • I see all of the information content from the lexicon article in the Logos version, which actually is the point of a lexicon.

  • The lexicon has links to Strong numbers (like to G1537 and the root G3982) - don't care whether those are hard-coded book-internal links in WS, they go to the highest prioritized Strong's lexicon in Logos - which may be this resource anyway for people who care about it or have it as the only one of its kind - but if someone wants to, they can easily be made internal through advanced prioritization. Thus they work at least as good in Logos as the WS version ever did.

  • The screenshot shows that WS has a reference to TDNT, which is inactive, i.e. dead. In Logos this is really linked to TDNT, which makes the Logos version definitely better than the WS one on this point, too.

  • On the other hand, WS had a direct link to Vines. The final Logos version most probably will include those in the future - and I'd encourage the team to do this - but actually the link is already inherently present via lookup (that's the standard claim from the product pages, that every word is basically linked to a dictionary). It really worked for me with a simple right-click:


    Other users may need to look into their prioritized resources with English Headwords index to ensure Vines is there.

  • The only substantial issue missing in the current, non-finished, eBook edition is the link to the pronunciation feature. I assume this is planned, given that the Greek Word section of the entry is colored blue as if it was a link. The FL developers will probably hard code links, but actually if this was coded as a lemma (like e.g. the Greek headwords in the Lexham Theological Wordbook, to which I got from the TDNT entry), then pronunciation would be in the context menu anyway, together with lots of functionality that is based on lemmas as opposed to Strongs.

       

    On the other hand, we have the Pronunciation Tool in Logos. This doesn't work on mouse-over, but with copying over either the Greek Word from the resource, or the Transliteration (putting a g: in front of it), the pronunciation will display the lemma and have it pronounced - even in one of the three different Greek pronunciation schemes. This workaround is not the same as having the resource in its final state - but for a former WS user who only owns a small number of lexicon resources, or just this one lexicon, in my opinion everything is there to actually make use of it in bible study etc. Definitely a clear improvement over not having it at all. 

         

Jerry Thompson:
I was unaware of what ebook" was until now. I had seen the post about books being released to "ebook" but for some reason it did not sink in, or I had forgot, that the book being released into "ebook" would not be complete.

This book has much more functionality than the typical automated eBook monograph will offer, since FL put in manual labor at incredible speed to fix the resource which crashed Logos in its original delivery status. That's the reason I wonder why you guys pick on this one.  

Jerry Thompson:
I kind of wish they had rather waited before releasing this one. When it first showed up I did the search in the Library and opened it up and saw that in that state it was unusable. I would have waited patiently for it to have been completed before being released. 
Of course everybody is free to still use the WS application and just wait. Some users may have compelling reasons to only use Logos - and if this resource is a relevant part of their study, I firmly believe it's better to have it in this status than not at all (which is my take on the existence of edition:eBook in general, too. Some publishers will never allow anything into Logos except as eBooks.) 

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 5577
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 11:50 AM

DIsciple II:
This is not even 80% success and 80% success is not good enough. If they ask us to pay $100 for a product they wouldn‘t accept 80% payment from us. They would expect 100% delivery of paymemy. Why should we accept less than 100% quality?

Let's suppose I knowingly ordered (and paid for) a $100 resource that Faithlife indicated would ship in its fully completed format in 6 months. Then let's say Faithlife offered that, in addition to getting it in full in six months, as an extra bonus, I could get an 80% done version in one month, and then five months later that 80% version would be automatically upgraded to the complete, 100% done resource. Would I take that offer? I don't think I'd ever turn that down. If I didn't like the 80% done version, I could ignore it, refuse to download it, or even "hide" it temporarily, if I found it sufficiently loathsome.

If getting the 80% version was something that was going to delay the 100% version, then there are almost definitely some times and resources where I wouldn't take the deal.

(It would be a lot like if I pre-paid for a Full Feature Set for Logos/Verbum 10 and, as a bonus, got Beta access to Logos/Verbum 10, with all the bugs, incomplete features, etc., that are part of a Beta. If I decided I didn't want to use that beta version, I could always simply choose to not use it until the standard version came out. If I then didn't like the standard version, I could request a refund.)

But it real life, I didn't pay anything for this resource (ever), and my receiving it 80% done now hasn't slowed down my receiving of it 100% done later (I have no idea when "later" will be). So no complaints here.

Posts 5859
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 12:40 PM

Thank you Bradley fior your response. I don’t like having to make posts like this but when I see stuff that is not up to the standard I have come to expect from FL i will call it out regardless of what other people think. The approach taken by FL with this project is the wrong one when you end up filling peoples libraries with junk like this, This won’t be the only resource like this but is one so poorly dine I had to be called out for what it is. It’s not about whether this information is available elsewhere, it is about the lack of respect FL had chosen to show this whole project to each resource and to each of its customers. by dumpimg a pile of useless eBooks in our libraries and particular to those new to FL customers coming across to FL for the first time who had no idea what was being delivered to them when they were told hey we are going to convert everything in your library to an eBook by Christmas and then make them great layer when we have time.

The haters on here who hate my direct open honest feedback are always going to hate it but when FL drops the ball and outputs rubbish I will not excuse it, I will not sweep it under the carpet, I will not be bullied into silence, I will not make excuses or at it’s okay because they are good people and will hey around to fixing it up someday or you can get the information a different way or blame it on the global pandemic. 

i will provide honest feedback because at the end of the day I believe FL is made up of good people who want to know when they have got it wrong. Hard working people who do want to do the right thing by their customers and they can’t do that if we as customer don’t be honest with them. Some of you do often miss this point and think how dramatic It is, how terrible it is, how un-Christian it is when one dares to call out something FL has dione as unacceptable. i cant make you take off your rose coloured glasses. But fact is when something is poorly done my conscious is clear in calling it out for what it is.  This is a serious issue that affects not only this resource I have chosen to highligh but a lot of WS resolved that should never have been converted in to eBook format but should have been held back until a fully functional Logos resource could be built. Nothing anyone had said had changed the fact that I was the owner of this company I world be ashamed to dumping such poor quality resources into users libraries, particularly onto new users who had come across to my company as a result of a owner takeover they new nothing about until one morning they woke up and were told the deal has been done, welcome to the new world. 

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

DIsciple II:
wrost resource ... a disgrace ... botched ... junk

DIsciple II:
have a go at me for being honest

Disciple II, I hear your honest feedback loud and clear. It is clear you think this resource is unacceptable in its current state and should never have been shipped.

DIsciple II:
it looks as though nobody checked it

This is correct. IIRC, this was part of a batch of 600 automatically-converted resources that all shipped the same day. They were not individually checked; the output from the EPUB converter was shipped as-is.

As you already stated, you know we are proceeding with a two-phase (really, multi-phase) process: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/193938/1117970.aspx#1117970

We are operating under the assumption that it was better to have "something" out there, rather than nothing. (I can go into more details about why we made that choice, if desired.) We knew we were taking a risk that could lead to low-quality resources being available for a few weeks or months until they could be upgraded to Logos editions, but we judged that risk was acceptable. In this case, that was an error.

It was certainly never our intent to antagonise our loyal customers (and our new Wordsearch customers) by releasing an "unacceptable" resource as part of this process. I'll take your feedback back to the team as we continue to find the right balance between delivering Ebook resources quickly and delivering high-quality Logos editions.

Posts 1562
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 1:17 PM

DIsciple II:

The haters on here who hate my direct open honest feedback are always going to hate it but when FL drops the ball and outputs rubbish I will not excuse it, I will not sweep it under the carpet, I will not be bullied into silence, I will not make excuses or at it’s okay because they are good people and will hey around to fixing it up someday or you can get the information a different way or blame it on the global pandemic. 

I believe everyone was giving their direct open honest feedback.  Some of us just have different takes and opinions and shared from those perspectives.  Keep your stick on the ice.  We're all in this together.  Smile

Posts 5859
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 10:00 PM

I was not asking for feedback on what other people thought. I was asking for action from FL. I have experienced too much traffic f other people on these forums telling me what feedback I can and cannot offer. And  once again it came across to me this way once again. I simply ask for FL to deliver resources that are up to the standard required for them to function as they were intended to function in the software. I don’t want resources where FL takes no responsibility for what is spat out by ty an algorithm amd then dumped them in my library as if they are usable. the think that is a pretty reasonable expectation that does not require other people to critique that expectation by coming up with excuses for FL doing a poor job.

Rick Ausdahl:

DIsciple II:

The haters on here who hate my direct open honest feedback are always going to hate it but when FL drops the ball and outputs rubbish I will not excuse it, I will not sweep it under the carpet, I will not be bullied into silence, I will not make excuses or at it’s okay because they are good people and will hey around to fixing it up someday or you can get the information a different way or blame it on the global pandemic. 

I believe everyone was giving their direct open honest feedback.  Some of us just have different takes and opinions and shared from those perspectives.  Keep your stick on the ice.  We're all in this together.  Smile

Posts 774
Kevin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 10:17 PM

It's a public forum, people are going to offer their opinion. You could always email Bob directly (email address at the bottom of this page).

Posts 8404
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 10:22 PM

I'm more concerned about the other books that look bad (especially the various books with sermons and outlines), but I'm sure and hopeful Faithlife will eventually fix those.  But for "Talking Strong's" come on.  I'm sure there are better things to rant about.  With Logos we really don't need a "Talking Strong's." We have a much better functionality as others have pointed out.

Anyway, let's be patience and I'm sure it will be worth the wait and inconvenience.  I'm sure FL's decision of buying out WS and how to make the transition was not an easy and convenient decision to make either.  So I strongly believe we all should cut them a huge break!

Thank you, FL for bringing my WS books over to Logos free of charge!

DAL

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