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Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Feb 25 2021 11:39 AM

I'm running this search <Person Jesus> WITHIN 5 WORDS "offering for sin". This should technically result in at least Isaiah 53:10, but I get zero back. I can only assume the "His" in this verse has not been tagged by the <Person Jesus>. I was hoping to find various search returns in the OT that alluded to the incarnate Christ.

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2021 12:37 PM

Finding Jesus in the Old Testament can be difficult as it may depend on interpretation.  In the church I attend it is Jesus in the cloud leading out of Egypt. And Jesus was the one that had lunch with Abraham.  But that may be denominationally dependent.  Most see the God of the OT as what we would call the Father - The Ancient One.   

[[We interpret all the "I Am" statements by Jesus in the NT as proof that the "I Am" in the OT was the same person as Jesus in the NT. Jews and Islamic people do not see Jesus in the OT at all.]]

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2021 12:49 PM

Steven Veach:
I'm running this search <Person Jesus> WITHIN 5 WORDS "offering for sin". This should technically result in at least Isaiah 53:10, but I get zero back. I can only assume the "His" in this verse has not been tagged by the <Person Jesus>.

As David says it is open to interpretation.

In Logos, tagging <Person Jesus> only appears in the New Testament.

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Andrew Batishko | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2021 12:51 PM

If you right click on "His" you can see exactly how this has been tagged, and adjust your search accordingly.

In this case, you would want to add <Person Pierced Servant> to your search.

Andrew Batishko | Faithlife software developer

Posts 108
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2021 2:39 PM

David Ames:

Finding Jesus in the Old Testament can be difficult as it may depend on interpretation.  In the church I attend it is Jesus in the cloud leading out of Egypt. And Jesus was the one that had lunch with Abraham.  But that may be denominationally dependent.  Most see the God of the OT as what we would call the Father - The Ancient One.   

[[We interpret all the "I Am" statements by Jesus in the NT as proof that the "I Am" in the OT was the same person as Jesus in the NT. Jews and Islamic people do not see Jesus in the OT at all.]]

This is how I've always understood it. There are several places in the OT where the reincarnate Christ is found. Burning Bush, Fiery Furnace, Isaiah 53, Psalm 2, etc. I guess I need to find a book that's specifically focused on OT allusions to Jesus. 

Posts 108
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2021 2:42 PM

Andrew Batishko (Faithlife):

If you right click on "His" you can see exactly how this has been tagged, and adjust your search accordingly.

In this case, you would want to add <Person Pierced Servant> to your search.

Thanks for the tip, but this does not get me any further. When I look up <Person Pierced Servant> it is only found in Isaiah 53. Apparently there is no way to find all the allusions to Jesus in the OT.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2021 2:48 PM

Steven Veach:
Apparently there is no way to find all the allusions to Jesus in the OT.

There is no agreement on what are allusions to Jesus and therefore, no criteria defining them, hence, no search ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Tom Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2021 3:12 PM

Steven Veach:

This is how I've always understood it. There are several places in the OT where the reincarnate Christ is found. Burning Bush, Fiery Furnace, Isaiah 53, Psalm 2, etc. I guess I need to find a book that's specifically focused on OT allusions to Jesus. 

This is still gathering interest but looks like it would be helpful to you https://www.logos.com/product/188063/knowing-jesus-in-the-old-testament-a-fresh-look-at-christophanies

Cf. https://www.logos.com/product/9113/christ-in-the-old-testament

You might also try searching your resources for Christophany.

Posts 108
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2021 8:38 PM

Thanks, Tom. ;-)

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2021 8:39 PM

Tom Reynolds:

Steven Veach:

This is how I've always understood it. There are several places in the OT where the reincarnate Christ is found. Burning Bush, Fiery Furnace, Isaiah 53, Psalm 2, etc. I guess I need to find a book that's specifically focused on OT allusions to Jesus. 

This is still gathering interest but looks like it would be helpful to you https://www.logos.com/product/188063/knowing-jesus-in-the-old-testament-a-fresh-look-at-christophanies

Cf. https://www.logos.com/product/9113/christ-in-the-old-testament

You might also try searching your resources for Christophany.

Search => https://www.logos.com/search?query=Christ%20Old%20Testament&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe includes many resources to consider, including:

Commentary to consider: Poor Man's Old and New Testament Commentary (12 vols.)

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 112
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2021 9:41 PM

How about using the Preaching Theme tagging? It wouldn’t find Genesis 18, but it would find Isaiah 53.

(sin AND offering) WITHIN {Section <PreachingTheme = Prophecy about Jesus>}

Posts 108
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2021 2:10 AM

Justin Gatlin:

How about using the Preaching Theme tagging? It wouldn’t find Genesis 18, but it would find Isaiah 53.

(sin AND offering) WITHIN {Section <PreachingTheme = Prophecy about Jesus>}

This, strangely, did not bring up any results for me in either the NKJV or the KJV. I've getting that from a few of Morris Proctor's search strings as well. Not sure what I'm doing wrong. I matched all the settings in the pic.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2021 2:37 AM

Steven Veach:
Not sure what I'm doing wrong. I matched all the settings in the pic.

Do you own the datasets being used - i.e. what feature set do you own?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 112
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2021 1:07 PM

In addition to MJ's question, see if this link works. That way there is no room for typos.

An even better search (which yields the same results in this case, but I think is a good tool to have for similar searches) is to search for the sense. You can find that by right clicking "offering for sin" in the text of Isaiah: <Sense = guilt offering> WITHIN {Section <PreachingTheme = Prophecy about Jesus>}

Posts 108
Steven Veach | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2021 2:46 PM

Using the link returns zero, so I must not have the data set.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2021 2:55 PM

Steven Veach:

Using the link returns zero, so I must not have the data set.

Preaching Themes Dataset shows inclusion in Bronze and Above feature sets

Biblical Word Senses Dataset also needs Bronze or Higher feature set(s)

Keep Smiling Smile

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