I am attempting to create a simple timeline of the kings of Israel and Judah along with the prophets. I am befuddled that I can't seem to even come close because of the lack of data for the kings across the timeline. What am I doing wrong?
I have no idea. I thought I'd try it out ... I used it maybe 10 years ago. I found maybe 1/3 of the kings.
I slipped over to Accordance timeline tool, and it took maybe 30 seconds to whip it out:
I have no idea. I thought I'd try it out ... I used it maybe 10 years ago. I found maybe 1/3 of the kings. I slipped over to Accordance timeline tool, and it took maybe 30 seconds to whip it out:
What am I doing wrong?
Shaming with its simple and useful presentation, tsk tsk.
Did you look at the Logos timeline documentation? I'd hate to be prep'ing a Bible study class! I know I'll get in trouble with a certain someone (first initial 'M'), but I think the common sense wheels are coming off of the the Faithlife design bicycle. Who are they doing this for??
Read the thread Chart of Prophets and Kings - Faithlife Forums (logos.com)
Ed, your question should generate a flood of requests for simple useful timelines in Logos.
We've already had our annual revisiting of this issue Dates of Old Testament Prophets - Faithlife Forums (logos.com) although a search of the forums indicates we may have accidentally missed 2021. Our annual discussion always seems to be prophets and kings. Perhaps in 2021 we used a different example.
Ed, your question should generate a flood of requests for simple useful timelines in Logos. We've already had our annual revisiting of this issue Dates of Old Testament Prophets - Faithlife Forums (logos.com) although a search of the forums indicates we may have accidentally missed 2021. Our annual discussion always seems to be prophets and kings. Perhaps in 2021 we used a different example.
There seems to be a hole inadequately filled; though the persons requesting the information appear satisfied with the help offered, I find no simple answer offered by the tool I think which should provide it readily, that being the Timeline Tool.
I'm sorry, I just can't accept run this search, find this chart, or timeline, in this resource as an adequate answer. My Logos should excel and provide stunning results from the tool that should be adapted to provide the answer, namely the Timeline Tool. If this is accomplished, and I think it should be, then the annual hajj will have been halted.
Oh, you want me to say that for myself the solution is professional timeline software? Okay, that actually is my solution. In L3 I'd built a number of timelines that fed nicely into Libronix. Unfortunately, Faithlife considered this capability to be incidental not a genuine feature. In keeping with my valuing consistency, I've never forgiven them and use external software to obtain the timelines I need.
If as you contend that this is a topic regularly repeated, my first question is why?
My suspicion is that the lack of action is related to the emphasis on pastors rather than Sunday school/religious ed/faith formation personnel.
I've never forgiven them and use external software to obtain the timelines I need.
I've never forgiven them and use external software to obtain the timelines I need. Your response makes me sad. If you truly withdrew your forgiveness you would have left Logos altogether, but we are far too invested for that solution. So, I encourage you to demand redress. Fix what is broken. Search is not the only squeaky wheel in this platform.
Amen and Amen!! I find the Logos Timlines are like Logos Search.... confusing. Both need lots of work!
Fix what is broken. Search is not the only squeaky wheel in this platform.
Not answering for MJ, Beloved. But there's really not much FL-produced, that actually works timeline-wise.
The Faithlife Study Bible (image below) has Infographics and a set of organized timelines. But they don't appear to care whether they can be displayed for Bible class. Notice the immovable panel on the right, forcing a zoom-out just to get the kings in a view (compare to Accordance above).
If per chance, you still have the older Libby timelines, be careful. Viewing the first one (eg kings) is fine (and quite interesting, showing which authors think which dates). But don't go for a second one (eg prophets) .... your Logos will crash. I tried several times.
For myself, and on behalf of all those who use liturgical calendars, my biggest squeaky wheel is getting the liturgical calendar corrected. The current implementation erroneously ties the calendar to a lectionary and fails to recognize that there are three common naming conventions that refer to the same dates in the Western calendar. The Byzantine (Eastern Orthodox) brings another set of terminology for basically the same calendar. I have yet to find an accurate way to align the Oriental Orthodox calendar but that may be simply my lack of understanding.
I find the Logos Timlines are like Logos Search.... confusing. Both need lots of work!
I have a somewhat different analysis. The Timelines need continuing work on connecting resources and refining of categories. The primary problem with the Timeline is that it is not intended to meet the need we most often turn to it for. There is a reason that wrenches and screwdrivers are usually separate tools. The Search, on the other hand, is primarily a matter of putting in the mental effort to learn to use it. Yes, the syntax can be improved but you are still stuck with "If you can't clearly define what you are looking for, you can't tell if you found it."
That may well be it. I'd love, love, love to be able to produce simple timelines to use in teaching. I was teaching First and Second Samuel last year, and spent a good deal of time trying to use the Logos timeline feature to produce something I could hand out to the class. It may just be me, but I was purely incapable of making it work. Everything I came up with was just too cluttered and, frankly, ugly to use as a handout or slide.
I'd love, love, love to be able to produce simple timelines to use in teaching. I was teaching First and Second Samuel last year, and spent a good deal of time trying to use the Logos timeline feature to produce something I could hand out to the class. It may just be me, but I was purely incapable of making it work. Everything I came up with was just too cluttered and, frankly, ugly to use as a handout or slide.
My experience is similar.
That's impressive. Seems to be that Logos has simply NOT made the Timeline functionality anything close to a priority. That's too bad.
Amen and amen!
I find the Logos Timlines are like Logos Search.... confusing. Both need lots of work! I have a somewhat different analysis. The Timelines need continuing work on connecting resources and refining of categories. The primary problem with the Timeline is that it is not intended to meet the need we most often turn to it for. There is a reason that wrenches and screwdrivers are usually separate tools. The Search, on the other hand, is primarily a matter of putting in the mental effort to learn to use it. Yes, the syntax can be improved but you are still stuck with "If you can't clearly define what you are looking for, you can't tell if you found it."
About the Search.... no argument, it's me.... and just so you know.... I do try everyday ... just seems I always spend time "learning" instead of "doing". Hope I learn it before I don't need it any more.... FL asked the questions.... which gives hope it may be improved. [8-|]
As to the Timelines.... I know I'll get in trouble... but I know times I would like to use them... but they just don't work for me. Again, it's probably me....
Edit: I'm a Logos fan... I like Logos...but ... Logos has some work to do, no doubt. When the functions of Logos become so difficult or so convoluted (Search and Timeline) that people don't use them ... I think it lessens the greatness of the program. While I would like to see "new things" in Logos 10... maybe it would be better if more of FL time was spent in making some of these functions actually work so that we users can actually use them.
The primary problem with the Timeline is that it is not intended to meet the need we most often turn to it for. There is a reason that wrenches and screwdrivers are usually separate tools.
I guess (not disagreeing). I'm just not sure what market they perceive? If you notice, they front the company with technical-talk (software labeling, feature announcements, staff-interactions), which immediately sets mental boundaries for customers (vs 'users'). In our company, such was intensionally banned ... we needed sales/profits.
Well ... their presentation. I think much can be learned, watching OliveTree's staff vs a religious customer-base.
I agree with a lot of what I've seen on this thread. I wish the timelines feature was more useful but in FL's defense, the way they built it I don't think would allow for what the OP is asking for. I could be wrong though.
Maybe they'll do another interactive in the future about the OT Kings and Prophets
I assume you're familar with what's known in the industry as the 'Logos 4-times rule'?
It usually takes FL 4 re-designs to get something right. Maps are finally pretty good (4 re-designs). Search is on 3-times. Maybe this fall, a 4th and pretty good. Text comparison is on #2. It'll take 2 more re-designs for them. Ditto Factbook.
FL clockworks. Smiling.
Extra: the 4-times rule should not be confused with the 80% rule (any FL design achieves 80% of the customer need, with a 6-year wait for corrections).
Maybe they'll do another interactive in the future about the OT Kings and Prophets I assume you're familar with what's known in the industry as the 'Logos 4-times rule'? It usually takes FL 4 re-designs to get something right. Maps are finally pretty good (4 re-designs). Search is on 3-times. Maybe this fall, a 4th and pretty good. Text comparison is on #2. It'll take 2 more re-designs for them. Ditto Factbook. FL clockworks. Smiling. Extra: the 4-times rule should not be confused with the 80% rule (any FL design achieves 80% of the customer need, with a 6-year wait for corrections).
[:D]
This is true. I can't say that I love the maps though. I didn't join Logos until the L6 days and I remember liking the old maps but the new ones aren't very clear to me. I wish they had more topography to them so I could zoom in and see mountains and caves. Finding cities can be a pain at times and of course you NEED an internet connection to view them. I also wish they had one main map that had everything like cities, trade routes, etc. I tend to just go to my atlases when I need a map because they are usually more colorful. I hope they had more graphics and detail in the future to make them better though. I will say I like the PPT slides they added to their atlas though. I hope they keep that up.
PS My MacBook every now and then will tell me I don't have internet when I clearly do when using the atlas. Probably just a me error but that is frustrating too because I have to exit the program and restart.
I wish the timelines feature was more useful but in FL's defense, the way they built it I don't think would allow for what the OP is asking for.
If you build a tool make it useful. Timelines are ridiculously burdened with glut.
I am attempting to create a simple timeline
These demands from your users should be treated with an immediacy of attention, in other words make this a priority, as your relevance as a company responsive to user needs depends on it.
Timelines are ridiculously burdened with glut.
Beloved, I'm just trying to understand what your issue could be. In your mind, just hear the song .... 'what, what, what could the matter be ....'
- The menus have everything selected, so you have to unselect everything first? One by one?
- It's not entirely clear exactly what you're choosing, relative to what you want?
- The colorful patterns don't immediately suggest a pattern?
- The randomness seems overly random? Or maybe not?
- Entries might repeat? The J-document, vs the J-document (Welhausen). Well, which one?
- A search box that doesn't seem to search?
- Font adjustments that actually are zoom adjustments?
- Styles that make you ask .... Informal-y ... what were they thinking?
- And for goodness sakes, where are those kings you want?!! Which ones, you say? Kings! K-I-N-G-S!
Timelines are ridiculously burdened with glut. Beloved, I'm just trying to understand what your issue could be. In your mind, just hear the song .... 'what, what, what could the matter be ....' - The menus have everything selected, so you have to unselect everything first? One by one? - It's not entirely clear exactly what you're choosing, relative to what you want? - The colorful patterns don't immediately suggest a pattern? - The randomness seems overly random? Or maybe not? - Entries might repeat? The J-document, vs the J-document (Welhausen). Well, which one? - A search box that doesn't seem to search? - Font adjustments that actually are zoom adjustments? - Styles that make you ask .... Informal-y ... what were they thinking? - And for goodness sakes, where are those kings you want?!! Which ones, you say? Kings! K-I-N-G-S!
I am attempting to create a simple timeline Ed's characterization of his problem with the tools design flaw is summarized nicely by his subject title and his concise statement of his dilemma. Take a lesson you developers. We want simple adaptable tools that present attractive data driven results. Not inflexible cluttered temperamental graphics that fail to deliver products you can teach and draw conclusions from. These demands from your users should be treated with an immediacy of attention, in other words make this a priority, as your relevance as a company responsive to user needs depends on it.
Okay, let's step back a bit and look at the issue objectively. I believe that the timeline is 3rd party software which is well within the state of the art capabilities. It depends upon preset categories to select what should/shouldn't be shown. The time frame has both preset and user set values. One has a choice of styles. While there are some issues with the organization of the selected categories and the handling of events spanning the begin/end dates selected, the software basically does a very good job of in laying out the timeline.
The issue is that we as users want a very granular control over what shows - prophets and kings being a prime example. The categories available are far too broad - Biblical event -->Individual. For use as handouts, what we want is a compound faceted selection (think of Bible browser) of all the data with just our selected entries. By compound I mean ability to combine multiple values for a facet e.g. king and prophet, Israel and Judah, only earliest dates ...
We, as users, must first be clear in what we need, then determine if it is better to use graphics already in our library or build custom graphics, then add an actual suggestion (not complaint) to feedbear and show that FL should prioritize the project.
I am attempting to create a simple timeline Ed's characterization of his problem with the tools design flaw is summarized nicely by his subject title and his concise statement of his dilemma. Take a lesson you developers. We want simple adaptable tools that present attractive data driven results. Not inflexible cluttered temperamental graphics that fail to deliver products you can teach and draw conclusions from.These demands from your users should be treated with an immediacy of attention, in other words make this a priority, as your relevance as a company responsive to user needs depends on it. Okay, let's step back a bit and look at the issue objectively. I believe that the timeline is 3rd party software which is well within the state of the art capabilities. It depends upon preset categories to select what should/shouldn't be shown. The time frame has both preset and user set values. One has a choice of styles. While there are some issues with the organization of the selected categories and the handling of events spanning the begin/end dates selected, the software basically does a very good job of in laying out the timeline. The issue is that we as users want a very granular control over what shows - prophets and kings being a prime example. The categories available are far too broad - Biblical event -->Individual. For use as handouts, what we want is a compound faceted selection (think of Bible browser) of all the data with just our selected entries. By compound I mean ability to combine multiple values for a facet e.g. king and prophet, Israel and Judah, only earliest dates ... We, as users, must first be clear in what we need, then determine if it is better to use graphics already in our library or build custom graphics, then add an actual suggestion (not complaint) to feedbear and show that FL should prioritize the project.
I am attempting to create a simple timeline Ed's characterization of his problem with the tools design flaw is summarized nicely by his subject title and his concise statement of his dilemma. Take a lesson you developers. We want simple adaptable tools that present attractive data driven results. Not inflexible cluttered temperamental graphics that fail to deliver products you can teach and draw conclusions from.These demands from your users should be treated with an immediacy of attention, in other words make this a priority, as your relevance as a company responsive to user needs depends on it.
As far as a FeedBear request I found that one already exists on this topic waiting for our votes and input and can be found here:
https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/improve-timeline
I'd like to ask a question (raises hand into the air).... [:D]
MJ.... how do I use the Timeline to list the Kings of the Northern Kingdom? I would think that would be something easy for Timeline... It's biblical.... it's O.T.... and yet without a lot of "weeding" through all the convolution....and taking a lot of time to do that.... it cannot be done.
I think this illustrates just some of the problem with Timeline.
Edit: and this is the problem I have had with Search... and with Factbook... and some other "functions" in Logos. And I will say it's probably me....since I didn't "grow up with Logos"....
Edit #2. I would think all of us "users" are on the same page.... not trying to "knock Logos" but really trying to make constructive suggestions by looking at the problems that are hindrances to good Bible study with a great program. I'm dedicated to Logos.... I try not to use WordSearch at all... but how do we go about trying to make Logos work for us... and us not working for it ... to try to get what we need to do our jobs?
Logos is a great program... but you gotta admit... there are some things that are problem areas.
I'd like to ask a question
I'd like to ask a questionxnman, did you vote? We need votes and comments.
(Snaps heels together "click", makes a snappy salute)....Yes Sir.... I want to help all I can!!
I'd like to ask a questionxnman, did you vote? We need votes and comments. (Snaps heels together "click", makes a snappy salute)....Yes Sir.... I want to help all I can!!
MJ.... how do I use the Timeline to list the Kings of the Northern Kingdom? I would think that would be something easy for Timeline..
You don't. While the underlying software is capable of doing it, the implementation of categories for selection is intended to provide broader information. To get a chart of kings and prophets, you use a media search and select from one of several customized timelines from graphic artists. I honestly thought I had made that clear in my post - where did I go wrong?
how do we go about trying to make Logos work for us... and us not working for it ...
While there are a number of features that don't have an optimal implementation and there are very different degrees of meeting "all the needs" depending upon your role and denomination, most of learning to use Logos is learning to use the right tool for your needs. The easiest way to learn is to ask in the forums when a tool isn't meeting your need. As you have discovered, the search is not the appropriate tool for identifying Moses' wife. Yes, you can make it do so, but the Factbook provides the data in a simple, nonrepetitive manner. (I think that was the example you used.)
The other aspect of learning to use Logos is to be realistic about what it can do. I want to find all the incidents in the Bible in which a male violates one or more of the 613 mitzvahs -- I obviously cannot do it. In fact, I can only find the mitzvahs because of FL coding - I can't write a search using nothing but the Biblical text that can find them. So to use Logos, I need to have a realistic understanding of when I have to use FL coding and a realistic understanding of what limitations dependence on FL imposes.
But my primary point was that feedback that simply says "too complicated" "too confusing", "too ... is not going to help FL to identify the problems and provide solutions -- we need to say "not suitable as a slide/handout because I can't select only prophets who are also author " ... just as I'd failed to understand that you and Josh were using a search to find a specific fact (what I think of as a lookup) until you mentioned Moses' wife.
FYI - the three weakest functions in Logos from my perspective is (a) the lack of support for multi-word phrases in the Concordance tool, (b) the poor implementation of liturgical calendar dates, and (c) the prayer list function with its petitionary focus and assumption response means stop praying about it.
MJ.... how do I use the Timeline to list the Kings of the Northern Kingdom? I would think that would be something easy for Timeline.. You don't. While the underlying software is capable of doing it, the implementation of categories for selection is intended to provide broader information. To get a chart of kings and prophets, you use a media search and select from one of several customized timelines from graphic artists. I honestly thought I had made that clear in my post - where did I go wrong? how do we go about trying to make Logos work for us... and us not working for it ... While there are a number of features that don't have an optimal implementation and there are very different degrees of meeting "all the needs" depending upon your role and denomination, most of learning to use Logos is learning to use the right tool for your needs. The easiest way to learn is to ask in the forums when a tool isn't meeting your need. As you have discovered, the search is not the appropriate tool for identifying Moses' wife. Yes, you can make it do so, but the Factbook provides the data in a simple, nonrepetitive manner. (I think that was the example you used.) The other aspect of learning to use Logos is to be realistic about what it can do. I want to find all the incidents in the Bible in which a male violates one or more of the 613 mitzvahs -- I obviously cannot do it. In fact, I can only find the mitzvahs because of FL coding - I can't write a search using nothing but the Biblical text that can find them. So to use Logos, I need to have a realistic understanding of when I have to use FL coding and a realistic understanding of what limitations dependence on FL imposes. But my primary point was that feedback that simply says "too complicated" "too confusing", "too ... is not going to help FL to identify the problems and provide solutions -- we need to say "not suitable as a slide/handout because I can't select only prophets who are also author " ... just as I'd failed to understand that you and Josh were using a search to find a specific fact (what I think of as a lookup) until you mentioned Moses' wife. FYI - the three weakest functions in Logos from my perspective is (a) the lack of support for multi-word phrases in the Concordance tool, (b) the poor implementation of liturgical calendar dates, and (c) the prayer list function with its petitionary focus and assumption response means stop praying about it.
Thanks MJ.... So I go over to Google ... type in Kings of Northern Kingdom... and walla... there they are... easy peazy ....
I know how to get information.... just wish I could do it in Logos. [8-|]
Thanks MJ.... So I go over to Google ... type in Kings of Northern Kingdom... and walla... there they are... easy peazy .... I know how to get information.... just wish I could do it in Logos.
I know how to get information.... just wish I could do it in Logos.
Nice image! You had to hunt for that though. Similarly in Logos you enter the same string in a media search of charts and timelines in all resources. You'll get images. It is possible in Logos.
Didn't hunt at all.... I use Chrome browser.... just type "kings of northern kingdom" in address bar... and there she be!
And I must not have the right resources or features in Logos... because I don't get anything like that chart in Logos when I search Media -- Charts; Timeline in all resources for kings of northern kingdom. What chart do you get?
Nice image! You had to hunt for that though. Similarly in Logos you enter the same string in a media search of charts and timelines in all resources. You'll get images. It is possible in Logos. Didn't hunt at all.... I use Chrome browser.... just type "kings of northern kingdom" in address bar... and there she be! And I must not have the right resources or features in Logos... because I don't get anything like that chart in Logos when I search Media -- Charts; Timeline in all resources for kings of northern kingdom. What chart do you get?
I think you're being too hard on xnman. He comes from a different culture
What I have here is a failure to communicate ... I'll not try a third time. Yes, his comments are useful and I gave a specific example where his posts led to a clearer understanding of comments from both Josh and him.
So I go over to Google ... type in Kings of Northern Kingdom...
I go to the search ... then remember that my library is currently only about 4% on my device so I hope I have loaded something with media:
My question to you is; what do you use the Timeline Tool for and importantly are you satisfied with its performance?
I use the timeline to get the context of an event I am interested in - that is what the available categories make it useful for. In that context I wish more of the timeline links had been completed. But I am moderately satisfied. I would like a coping saw but I have a cross-cut saw and use it as such. However, as I have previously noted, because it is not designed to create handout/slide appropriate timelines, I use professional timeline software for presentation development. It had appeared from the Feedbear s tatus for the LessonMaker from WordSearch, that FL might be developing tools appropriate for the Sunday School/faith formation oriented users. It would be with that thrust, that the timeline tool that I would expect FL to develop the timeline tool with an eye on presentation uses.
Actually..... I think MJ has been very patient with me... I appreciate that.... and I'm not trying to do anything but learn this process of Logos.... honest...
Oookay.... I am more confused... I think my biggest fault is that I am persistent too much... but... I am beginning to think ... I have a different Logos 9 than everyone else... (kidding)... But...
I own The Bible Knowledge Commentary BKC....
LLS:29.1.12022-06-10T18:00:50Zbkc.logos4
.... which is where MJ points to the information ....
So when I use Search --> Media --> Charts; Timelines in All Resources... for kings northern kingdom... here's what I get....
Can one of you please explain this to me? IF I have the same book... and I DO THE SAME SEARCH shouldn't I get similar results?
Edit:------------------------
Ok my bad..... I type in the search exactly as MJ had.... (the hieroglyphics caught me...) ... and here's what I get.... It's still not what MJ got...
Which just goes to show .... I don't understand the hieroglyphics of Search...I don't know how to Search!.
Here I have a Bible program that I estimate cost me somewhere between $6,000 and $8,000 ... and for the life of me.... I don't know how to search the program.... [:(]
Whoa.... The search I did above (same as MJ) did not show anything from BKC... it did show charts from Thompsons.... Holman.... Daniel-Hosea (KJV).... but nothing from BKC....
I've seen things like this before.... where I do the same search as someone illustrated in a forum thread.... and some of my books don't seem to be searched... Believe me, I am more confused....
What am I doing wrong???
Maybe try reindexing just that resource? The help manual has the syntax for it
There is a significant risk in asking FL to improve timelines.
FL doesn't do easy-to-use. And they need very clear detailed instructions in their Feedbear. Else, risky business.
- I can see obnoxious search syntax in their little timeline search box. Keeping the little box small, of course.
- Battleship-greying the text for reduced readability.
- More totally who-knows-what-that-is menu categories.
- And more timeline events to successfully hide what you're hoping for.
Oh sure, you want Northern Kingdom Kings? No. No, you don't. Not designed for that.
I know I'm being excessively obnoxious. But I was just curious ... maybe Factbook knows how to do Timeline????
I tried it out .. I typed in 'timeline' and it gave a choice of 'Timeline of Biblical Events'. Yes!! But then, well, not really.
Which software do you use? I'd love to have some software that handles timelines well.
Timeline Maker Pro – Best Timeline Software for Business which also has a free version.
I think my biggest fault is that I am persistent too much... but...
Actually, you are exactly right to be very useful on the forums. While at times it may be like pulling hens' teeth, you persist until we (or at least I) truly understand the problem. In this case, I'd say the problem is two-fold:
My results this time are not typical as very little of my library is downloaded. The media search does not have a library (cloud) section AFAIK. When I have time, I'll play around with media timelines/charts and see if I can figure out the difference.
