Logos, Please do Something

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This post has 100 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 8 2010 11:25 AM

Matthew C Jones:

tom collinge:
you are speaking without knowing all of the facts.  We had single modules that exceed 60,000 lines of code, and we had tens of thousand of modules.

I suppose I know as many facts about your company as you know about Logos. Where I come from we call 60,000 lines of code "spaghetti code"

You brought a smile to my face with your comment on spaghetti code.  I used to love to write a program in Basic then compile it.  I got a book on C and felt like throwing it against the wall since he made a comment that in Basic you can't avoid spaghetti code.  All he did was to show that he didn't understand Basic since you could write procedures in Basic the same as you can in C -- all you needed to do was "Gosub" and "Return."  The beauty of Basic was that you could run the uncompiled program to test it before compiling it -- incremental development.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 634
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 8 2010 11:43 AM

Matthew C Jones:
And we should not forget regular tune-ups of the registry

Good reminder, Matt. Thanks.

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 8 2010 1:43 PM

Michael Dixon:
Perhaps I (or all of us) was expecting Logos to be something it was never intended to be. Accordance apparently runs lightning fast and doesn't have the bugs of logos, and is geared more toward research and study - more of a tool  - but it also doesn't have the resources. Logos is a digital library, with additional features that can be used as a research or study tool, but it is like hammering with a screwdriver.

Certainly Logos is different from Accordance and Bibleworks, and I guess is therefore not for everyone. But I think your tool vs library analogy is not quite right (simply because Logos has more tools than Accordance, not just more resources). I don't know if it helps, but if I can extend your metaphor, software like PC Study Bible is a layman's tool, Bibleworks is a professional tool, Accordance is a tool-bag, Logos is a tool-chest.

I guess if you just want to hang a picture on the wall, you're going to get frustrated lugging around a big old tool chest. It could be seen as a bit cumbersome when all you want to do is something relatively simple. But on the other hand, you may prefer the occasional inconvenience for the benefit of knowing that you have access to pretty much everything that you need, and that you've got room in your tool-chest for yet more goodies to come.

 

Posts 236
Michael March | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 8 2010 3:16 PM

Well, I'm not a logos fanboy, but I have to say after reading this entire thread (third Bible Study of the day starts in 20 minutes) that I am happy I too got one of the three or four completely working versions.  

I don't think it's slow.  I use it on two laptops, both fairly new, but one of them has integrated graphics, not even a graphics card, and it runs just fine on it.  If I ask it to do a lot, it takes a second or two to do it, no more.  The only slowness to me is the initial startup time. That doesn't annoy me, because I only turn it on in the morning once and then run the program all day long.  Otherwise this slowness issue is a mystery to me.  It runs just fine.

I've never seen the bugs that plague some people, though perhaps I don't push it too hard, and I don't do beta.  

I am also grateful for the quick help that is shown in these forums, and after reading these five pages of this forum, I honestly think it seems like there is some grumbling going on without any specific complaint (I'm an RSV guy, so I should have said 'murmuring''' ;-) ).  If there were a specific complaint then I honestly think it would be fixed, but as it stands here, all I see is murmuring.

Let me repeat, I'm not a whitewashing yes man bound and determined to defend Logos at any cost.  I'm just a very happy customer whose ministry has been enhanced by this amazing tool who is looking forward to the 12 days of Christmas sale...

Your brother in Christ,

Mike 

Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 8 2010 3:28 PM

Michael March:
Let me repeat, I'm not a whitewashing yes man bound and determined to defend Logos at any cost

So, what's wrong with you?  Who gave you a right to be so satisfied?  Big Smile  I find a few problems, but their numbers seem to be decreasing.  Hopefully they will eventually reach the point where "And Then There Were None" (You need to be an Agatha Christie reader for that).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 8 2010 3:38 PM

Not a good Logos day.....

The MacArthur Study Bible crashes 1.5 on my iPod Touch.  Blows it right back to the Apple menu!!  

I think the betas and RCs need to be tested more before release.  Perhaps, have a larger RC soft release before making them gold. 

I hope that Logos starts coding more for speed and stability than for expanded feature sets.

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

Posts 29138
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 8 2010 4:51 PM

Michael Huffman:
they keep wanting to blame hardware; primarily video RAM

This would be a reasonable diagnosis as it has been the underlying cause of poor performance a number of times. What specifically do you think the appropriate response of Logos should be? It appears that Logos gave a diagnosis and the user has chosen not to do the corrective action.

However, I am getting concerned about the tone of this thread - we don't need it to break out into a brawl. It seems to me that there is little to disagree about -

  • everyone agrees that there have been performance problems
  • the performance has generally improved
  • some particular features seem to slow performance for those who otherwise have satisfactory performance
  • some individuals have configurations that have never had satisfactory performance
  • Logos customer service is working with the unfortunates who have bad performance
  • Logos development is continuing to work on performance as the number of features increase

as for the bugs:

  • whether they approve or disapprove of stage at which Logos 4 was released, everyone agrees that the initial release was disappointing in performance, features and bugs ... and they could chose to continue to use Logos 3, move to Logos 4, or some mixture of the two as fit their needs.
  • bugs continue to be prioritized and fixed - some more quickly than others; the option to use Logos 3 still exists
  • individuals finding what they perceive to be bugs have an obligation to seek out information to ensure that they are using the system correctly to get the results they want. If they are using the system correctly, they have an obligation to document the bug so that Logos can recreate and repair the problem
  • Logos has the responsibility to prioritize the repairs based upon (among other things) the severity of the problem and the number of people likely affected.

The biggest item in dispute appears to be the tone and specificity with which one communicates one's problems on the forums.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 29138
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 8 2010 6:01 PM

]Where I come from we call 60,000 lines of code "spaghetti code"

Tom - where I come from we call it a small subsystem. To me "spaghetti code" refers to code that was written and/or maintained without any thought to structure and design. As a young programmer I had to take over a severe case of spaghetti code where the original programmer was unable to follow his own logic to finish the program. My employer made an analyst come in and entertain my son while I finished it up on Saturday.Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 37
Brent Daniel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 8 2010 6:10 PM

Tony Thomas:

Not a good Logos day.....

The MacArthur Study Bible crashes 1.5 on my iPod Touch.  Blows it right back to the Apple menu!!  

??? ???

"Not a good Logos day ..."?  I must disagree. It is a GREAT Logos day!

The 1.5 release of the iOS app (i / Phone, Pad, Pod Touch), is a huge milestone in the development of the app. All previous releases used a stand-alone code base that worked with a special format of the resources (different than the logos4 format used in L4Win).  This release, as has been discussed in some detail on the iPhone/IPad forum, is based on the L4Win/L4Mac code base which will provide a foundation for all the features that users want on the mobile platform. Also, given that Apple's App development model constrains a developer's ability to do open beta programs (which I understand Logos is working to address), the stability of the 1.5 release is quite impressive. I suppose my expectations are colored by 30+ years in the high-tech engineering and development. I know how hard it is to get a stable release when there is so much variation in users' hardware and software.  Keep in mind that there are four major hardware releases of the iPod Touch, as many iPhone releases, and at least one for the iPad. There are many different releases of iOS as well (I have a 1st generation iPod Touch running iOS 3.13). Logos has also made significant changes in their back-end server environment to support the new iOS release with the support for the logos4 native resource files.

I have experienced the crash of the Logos App during the install of the ESV Study Bible - which is one of my favorite resources. Dave Dunkin, Logos, was able to reproduce the bug and communicate the issue on these forums within a few hours of the 1.5 release.  Very impressive.  I have absolute confidence that this bug will be addressed in a timely fashion (timeliness determined by Logos ...).

The Logos user-base has very high expectations, and I am including myself.  However, the open, humble attitude of Logos staff, from Bob (CEO), to development staff like Dave Dunkin, and many others I've seen in action on the forums or in e-mail/telephone interactions over the last few years, is an inspiration to me.  I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and focus on what has been accomplished, instead of focusing on what is missing (features, performance etc.).

What is little understood by many of the Logos customer base, is that the huge success of the Logos4 release a year ago has undoubtedly launched Logos into a VERY challenging season in Logos' corporate history.  Managing hyper-growth is VERY demanding. And, I am very impressed in the way Bob (CEO) has humbly admitted the challenges the company has faced (and are still facing) and been very forthright in what they are doing to respond, and that the response(s) will take time.  I have a lot of time for anyone or any company that is as transparent and humble as Logos - as demonstrated by the company Leadership (Bob, Dan and others). 

To conclude, I am NOT a "Logos Fanboy" - whatever that means.  The respect I have for Logos has been earned.

 

Posts 38
Bill Fitch | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 8 2010 10:00 PM

Just read this thread today for the first time. Although an infrequent poster and a moderate user, I really want to add my voice to that group of people who have had no significant problems from day 1 with Logos 4.  I spend 6-8 hrs of every day on my computer but don't find Logos runs any slower than the other programs I use.  Apparently I've had the good fortune to have a configuration that worked smoothly, and I can understand how frustrating it must have been for those who didn't. But the problems referred to are not universal.

Posts 291
Bob Schlessman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 9 2010 4:50 AM

David Royer:

Logos slow? Yes. Logos buggy? Yes.

I guess I am not experiencing either of these issues. Though it does take L4 longer to load than L3, once it is up and running I find it runs very fast on my home and office desktops. Neither system is a high end system. However I did experience a considerable boost in performance when I doubled my memory from 2 gig to 4 gig and added discrete graphics vs integrated graphics.

As far as being buggy, I suppose the fact that I am not a Logos 4 "power user" may account for me not having that trouble. I don't do anything beyond basic study and sermon prep and tend to keep the same layout for both purposes. But I would like to propose one possible cause for many of the problems that some experience. As a part time computer tech it truly amazes me how often I work on systems for people who have so many processes and services running in the background that choke their systems ability to even perform standard functions such as checking email and browsing the internet. In addition many of the addons that cludge up their systems are usually not necessary. I recently worked on one system that had four different IE 8 toolbars installed. The same system had 168 malware infections so granted, it was an unusual case. But there are many systems that come with a lot of bloatware preinstalled not to mention the automatic update features of said bloatware and system. Even some of the darlings of the industry such as Norton and Macafee tend to include much more than is required to protect systems. Personally I use a top rated free security program that doesn't bog down my system and hog resources. (FYI - I have never had a virus using that program).

Before blaming Logos for releasing a substandard product, take the time to educate yourselves as to what is running in the background as far as services and processes. Then go the next step and find out what truly is necessary and what you can live without. Granted the users here tend to be more tech savvy from what I have seen. But I would suspect there are many who come here with complaints about L4 that could solve most of their issues just by cleaning up their systems and running only those processes that are absolutely necessary for the proper functioning and security of their systems. It is a lot less than the the software and hardware companies would have you believe.

That's my two cents worth for the day.

Posts 634
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 9 2010 5:06 AM

MJ. Smith:
What specifically do you think the appropriate response of Logos should be?

We are not asking for necessarily mili-seconds (we understand that it does alot), but 15-20 seconds has been agreed in this in this forum as too long.

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

Posts 2
Ingemar "Lloyd" Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 9 2010 5:13 AM

I agree my computer is being forced to index for 45 hours! This is insane. it seems my Logos has downloads every time a start it. I am not satisfied at all. I am not to ga ga over Logos to tell the truth this is not as good as everyone keeps claiming on this forum.

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 9 2010 5:16 AM

Ingemar Woods:
I agree my computer is being forced to index for 45 hours! This is insane. it seems my Logos has downloads every time a start it. I am not satisfied at all. I am not to ga ga over Logos to tell the truth this is not as good as everyone keeps claiming on this forum.

Ingemar, if you can describe your problem in a bit more detail in a new thread (see "How to ask for help" below), we'll see if we can help.

Posts 2
Ingemar "Lloyd" Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 9 2010 7:41 AM

Mark,

Over the last few days I have been required to download large updates. Tonight it stated that it would take 46 hours . However, it completed and indexed in about 4 or so hours. I am running a 2 GB RAM, Anthlon X 2. I had some problems before but have had a lot of problems recently problems with excessive updates and indexing. I have the scholars silver. Any advice is appreciated. Thank you and God bless you.

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 9 2010 7:57 AM

Ingemar Woods:
Over the last few days I have been required to download large updates.

Logos updated to a new version (4.2), which also required a large resource update. This sort of very large update happens only rarely (two-three times a year?). If you turn automatic updates of (in Program Settings), then you could delay the install to a more convenient time. You'll still get notified the download is there, it just won't start downloading until you say so.

Ingemar Woods:
Tonight it stated that it would take 46 hours . However, it completed and indexed in about 4 or so hours.

Unfortunately, initial estimates of indexing are often woefully incorrect. The estimate does improve as the indexing goes on, however.

Ingemar Woods:
I had some problems before but have had a lot of problems recently problems with excessive updates and indexing.

If the problems reoccur, be sure to say so on the forum. I can't really comment without knowing the details.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 9 2010 10:20 AM

Bob Schlessman:

But I would suspect there are many who come here with complaints about L4 that could solve most of their issues just by cleaning up their systems and running only those processes that are absolutely necessary for the proper functioning and security of their systems. It is a lot less than the the software and hardware companies would have you believe.

That's my two cents worth for the day.

More like two dollars,  O generous one. 

My laptop has reached the point of 745mb left on the hard drive. Now while I could blame Firefox for creating a slow-poke browser (NOT!)  I think I will offload a few dozen gigabytes of PDFs, and digi-cam folders.

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 9
Benjamin Galan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 9 2010 10:56 AM

I want to add my vote to the "satisfied user." I use Logos 4 in Windows and Mac (home and office, respectively) [and wish I could in Linux, though biblia.com is a great alternative]. I had experienced a great deal of trouble lately with my Mac version. It was incredibly slow and used memory like crazy (a full 1.5 GB after a couple of hours of usage)---not normal.

So I deleted my Logos folder in my Library folder and downloaded all of my data again. Granted, it took a whole day (only 9 hours, really) to do all of the updating and indexing. Not bad at all, considering how many book I have in there.

I don't mind updates... I keep reminding myself that they make my system more stable and add new features. The more the better, I say! Yes, it takes patience; the indexing process tends to hijack my computer.... but, when I do a search, a passage guide, or an exegesis of a long text (as I often do), I'm grateful for having to be patient with the whole indexing process.

Is Logos 4 perfect? No. I've never read or heard anybody making such a claim. Is it better than other software? Yes and no. It all depends. I've tried the other Bible software alternatives; although I liked them and grew to respect them greatly, I still prefer Logos. It's a wonderful piece of engineering. 

Finally, the fact that the Mac developers have so ever nearly reached parity with the Windows version (I do run the beta channel) is absolutely praiseworthy (big hooray! for the Mac developers). Yes, it's expensive; but, when I show to my friends and co-workers what the software can do, and I see their reactions (and I remember my own reactions when I started using the software), I think every penny's been well spent.

Finally, a big thank you to all the advanced users in the forum who so generously help others with issues. They don't have to do it; so here are my thanks to each of you.

My two cents! 

Benjamin

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 10 2010 8:23 AM

MJ. Smith:

]Where I come from we call 60,000 lines of code "spaghetti code"

Tom - where I come from we call it a small subsystem. To me "spaghetti code" refers to code that was written and/or maintained without any thought to structure and design. As a young programmer I had to take over a severe case of spaghetti code where the original programmer was unable to follow his own logic to finish the program. My employer made an analyst come in and entertain my son while I finished it up on Saturday.Big Smile

MJ,

You are 100% correct (again), size does not equal spaghetti.  The logic in our larger modules were very easy to maintain because they only did one thing, they read the master file, and then they passed this information onto the other modules so that the 100's of reports could be produced.

 

Wow, it is really really sad when a developer cannot follow his/her own code.  I wondered if this person had heard of documentation?  It does help (if it is correct.  I had a saying, the only thing worst than no documentation is incorrect documentation.)

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 10 2010 6:11 PM

tom collinge:
Wow, it is really really sad when a developer cannot follow his/her own code.  I wondered if this person had heard of documentation?
In the industrial setting we always incorporated documentation within the code. Saginaw Steering Gear (Delphi) had learned the lesson the hard way. Many of their machines were built before WW2 and modified by many skilled tradesmen along the way without any blueprinting or documentation. So when "Bob" or "Dan" retired after 43 years, none of the new guys knew much about them. Management made sure the same thing did not happen with the robots and software.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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