OT Quotes in NT: My New Project

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 5:51 PM

I like this....but I have one question....how do I differentiate between a quote and allusion...I know that you said it was subjective....but is there a resource that draws this dividing line so I can get started?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 7:01 PM

Robert Pavich:

I like this....but I have one question....how do I differentiate between a quote and allusion...I know that you said it was subjective....but is there a resource that draws this dividing line so I can get started?

I can't think of a resource off the top of my head that delineates a dividing line. Quotes use the same words, allusions use similar words. A quotation is a deliberate invoking of an OT passage whereas an allusion may just be present because the author was so immersed in the OT. So if you are in doubt about a specific example you can consult these to help make a determination

  1. Does the NA27 put it in italics? What it considers quotes are italicized.
  2. What does the NET Bible say? It is normally pretty good at  identifying quotes and allusions.
  3. If still in doubt a technical commentary or something like the Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old should finish tipping it one way or the other.

Does this help? Even if you end up mis-classifying something here or there you will still end up better understanding how the NT authors use the OT.

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 7:15 PM

Robert, since I suppose you are going to do this manually as Kevin did, let me remind you that as Kevin pointed out that if you underline the text, then it is searchable. Start a new palette. This could come in handy in the future if you wanted to find a quote and only remembered one or two of the words.   Also if you don't want the underline to show, you can make it white and it pretty much disappears.  I did the same thing Kevin did, only for the English NT.  Here is a screen shot.

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

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Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 7:26 PM

I finished the quotes and will go on to the allusions soon.  I enjoyed doing this as it gives you a heads up on what the NT writers had probably been reading and meditating on when they composed their writing.

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 249
Giovanni Baggio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 7:59 PM

Jerry M:

...it gives you a heads up on what the NT writers had probably been reading and meditating on when they composed their writing.

I don't think the writers of the NT or OT for that matter were reading or meditating on some portion of the OT when they "composed" their writing.  Remember that "All Scripture is given by inspiration" God-breathed...(2Ti. 3:16) and they spoke (we could add wrote) as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21).  In other words, God told the OT & NT writers what to write...consider the following verses: Isaiah 30:8 there God told Isaiah to write, record in a book the words God revealed to him.  Jeremiah 30:2 God told Jeremiah the same thing (write in a book); cf. Jer. 36:4 where Jeremiah dictated to Baruch the words of the Lord so Baruch could write them (cf. Rom. 16:22).  Same thing happened when the NT was written.  Paul wrote the commandment of the Lord in 1 Corinthians 14:37, so that those who are spiritual can perceive that.  And finally, let's not forget about John who wrote the things which were revealed to  him (Rev. 1:11; cf. 2:1, 8, etc. ).  As you can see, they were not reading or meditating on anything, they were given the task to write all the things God-breathed to them.  Neither Peter nor Matthew read the OT to pick and choose which verses to insert in their writings, God breathed to them the right verses with the right interpretation/application.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be picky.  I may be "over reacting" Wink but it is my conviction that God-breathed the Bible to the OT & NT writers so they could write exactly what God wanted them to write.  Is not a matter of God assigning topics like God telling Paul: "Paul write about love; and then Paul came up with love is kind, is patience, etc." That would not be inspiration....True inspiration is God telling Paul: "Paul, write about love; AND this is what I want you to write: 'love is kind, love is patience, etc." I hope you and all who read my post get my point and don't misinterpret it.  All I'm saying is that whenever God-breathed Scriptures it was not time to sit, read the OT and meditate so they could "compose" the Bible -- because that would not be inspiration.

Sweet dreams!

Giovanni

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Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 8:10 PM

Giovanni Baggio:
it is my conviction that God-breathed the Bible to the OT & NT writers

This is theological and off topic, but I certainly take a "high view" of inspiration.  I have given my life to study His word.  Have you read the books of Luke and Acts where Luke set out to research all the facts of Jesus life and the events of the early church?  Luke 1:3 

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 4:55 AM

Giovanni,

What you are describing is the dictation theory of inspiration. Inspiration is a fascinating topic; I happen to have a different take on it than you. I will resist debating it Smile. What I will say is that whether one holds to dictation or verbal plenary inspiration or some other understanding, this highlighting scheme should be helpful. I think it is clear that the OT stands behind the NT and to fully understand the New we should study the Old, particularly the places where it is quoted and alluded to.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 5:16 AM

Kevin,

thanks for explaining it...that really helped...

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 5:48 AM

Robert Pavich:

I like this....but I have one question....how do I differentiate between a quote and allusion...I know that you said it was subjective....but is there a resource that draws this dividing line so I can get started?

Just about everyone who looks at this question comes up with a different description. Formally, quotes will tell you they're quotes ("It is written", "Scripture says", etc.) and allusions are everything else, but there are some that look to be word-for-word without the "quotation formula".

Not in Logos, but Richard Hays, "Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul" has a good description, though I think it has too many classes with too subtle divisions between them. It is widely available in paperback and not too expensive. Also not in Logos, but in the early 70's Donald Hagner published a book (his doctoral dissertation; Brill, I think, is the publisher) on the use of the OT and NT in Clement of Rome. I found this very, very helpful (more so than Hays). You'll probably have to find it at a library, though.

Lastly, you might want to try "Commentary on the NT use of the OT", published by Baker and available for Logos. http://www.logos.com/product/5321/commentary-on-the-new-testament-use-of-the-old-testament

Hope it helps.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

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Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 6:00 AM

Also the ESV will say "cited from" in their cross references if it is clearly a quote. (and of course put it in quotations)

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 7:47 AM

Perhaps someone will find this helpful.  If you search the Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament for allusion, you get a list of NT references in cannonical order, many of which are allusions.

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 8:06 AM

Another thought you may want to consider if you are like me, less of an expert.... I found myself starting to worry more about whether it was a quote or whether it was an allusion, as I tried to incorporate this excellent practice into my study. So I modified it slightly, and just have a palette of "Quotes and Allusions" copying the ideas here - for me, knowing it's a quote or allusion can be discerned if it's important later, but most times I Just want to know where this thought from the NT writer came from, and to know it comes out of Ps 27 or whatever is a useful first step. 

Posts 41
RichGrif | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 9:56 AM

Jerry---how do you make that search for "allusion" come out in cannonical order?  Thanks,

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 10:28 AM

RichGrif:

Jerry---how do you make that search for "allusion" come out in cannonical order?  Thanks,

If you arrange the results By Book or By Title (I think the label is different between the Beta and Stable release) it will give you the hits in the order they are in the book and since the book is in canonical order...

Posts 41
RichGrif | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 1:07 PM

Thanks much

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 12:35 PM

Kevin Becker:

I'm done with my first pass through the text. Whenever I study a NT passage now I will be certain to update my highlighting. Here's a screen-shot with some particularly dense quotations and allusions from 1 Peter. It's pretty cool to see the interplay.

Kevin!        Peace and every Blessing!             I just now (yesterday, actually) discovered this thread!              I am so very grateful to you!           I now have my very own Intertextuality Note File started, based on yours.               I'm also starting to use NA 28 which I received with my Logos 5 materials instead of NA 27 which I have used for many, many years.

                     Are you thinking of switching also to NA 28 ?

                                 Anyway, Keven!              The biggest Thank You!                      and ...              Always Joy in the Lord!              *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 1338
Liam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 12:50 PM

This is pretty sweet! I think I will start one of these as well! It looks really helpful for seeing where the quotes are while reading instead of overlooking them. I might highlight what is quoted from in the OT as well, with a NT book bubble so I can see how the NT authors treat an OT text at a glance.

Thanks!!!

Posts 4625
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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:02 PM

Liam Walsh:

This is pretty sweet! I think I will start one of these as well! It looks really helpful for seeing where the quotes are while reading instead of overlooking them. I might highlight what is quoted from in the OT as well, with a NT book bubble so I can see how the NT authors treat an OT text at a glance.

Thanks!!!

Peace, Liam!                  Yes!         Sweet indeed, eh?                 *smile*

                     There are probably more, but two books I have in my Logos 5 library are also extremely helpful:

1.

Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament

by D. A. Carson, G. K. Beale

| 2007

 (59.99 USD)* 2. Old Testament Quotations and Allusions in the New Testament by David A Jones

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:35 PM

Liam Walsh:

This is pretty sweet! I think I will start one of these as well! It looks really helpful for seeing where the quotes are while reading instead of overlooking them. I might highlight what is quoted from in the OT as well, with a NT book bubble so I can see how the NT authors treat an OT text at a glance.

Thanks!!!

The good news is, if you have Logos 5, you can get a copy of my note file. Go to you Account Settings Page on Logos.com, choose the Groups Tab. In the search bar type in OT Quotes in NT. Join that group and then go to documents.logos.com. At the top click your name and select the OT quotes in NT group. That'll bring up the list of shared documents in that group (so far just mine). Hover over the title and then click Connect. Sync L5 and you should get the document.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 17 2012 1:39 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

Kevin!        Peace and every Blessing!             I just now (yesterday, actually) discovered this thread!              I am so very grateful to you!           I now have my very own Intertextuality Note File started, based on yours.               I'm also starting to use NA 28 which I received with my Logos 5 materials instead of NA 27 which I have used for many, many years.

                     Are you thinking of switching also to NA 28 ?

                                 Anyway, Keven!              The biggest Thank You!                      and ...              Always Joy in the Lord!              *smile*

You're welcome. I just wish I could have shared this document sooner!

I'm thinking about porting it over to the NA28, however seeing as most people will have the NA27 since the 28 only comes in @ L5 Platinum and higher it might be best to keep it on the NA27 so I can share it as widely as possible.

When you got your copy of my document did the custom highlights show up fine? I'm curious to see how the shared documents come across but I haven't found a shared file I wanted yet. Smile

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