Consensus "beef up notes"

I will add a couple more requests to this list.

23. To be able to prioritize my notes (for an example, I can have all of my year c files to be a the top of the list when we are in year c).
24. To have more note icon colors, (at less match the icon colors of L3 so that we do not lose the information that is contained in our icon color).

How about simple export and import, so we can store them offline, or email them, or put them on a web site etc.
In other words, let us KEEP our Notes however we like, for those that wish to.
I have little interest in how they get stored when inside the application, or what format they are in, if synced to the Cloud.
If we can export the few that are our lifes work, we need not fear what some bug, network outage etc might do to them.
For those users that don't mind, and wish to trust the cloud, they need not be impacted.
Thanks.

I strongly would like notes to behave like Word or other word processors. Mainly, I would like the ability to have finely adjustable point sizes up and down...not just 8, 10, 12, 14, 18, 24, 28, 32 etc.

I would like the note pop-up window to be as large as the note requires (up to half the screen size), and have the ability to be pinned and scrolled.

And I would like these features available in L3...in addition to L4.

As far as L4 specific, I would like the input windows to be more like L3...the input window area is goofy and klunky.

I'm struggling to isolate less than 22 of these that I want, but with much effort here's my order:

1. I also must add a reporting feature which pulls all notes on a given pericope into a printable, exportable file. 
2. allow a note to be attached to multiple passages - with the note icon appearing on each passage
3. allow notes and note files to be merged or split
4. remove the size limitation on notes in the passage and exegetical guides
5. permit notes to be made from templates
6. allow all links - to other notes, PDF's mp3's, PowerPoint's, web, mind maps ...
7. permit at least as much formatting as in L3 which includes tables, illustrations, colored text, underlined text ...
8. allow tags on all notes as well as the ability to search on those tags
9. allow a search directly on the contents of notes - all notes whether in note files or guides

1. permit at least as much formatting as in L3 which includes tables, illustrations, colored text, underlined text ...
2. permit a table of contents panel similar to L3
3. allow a note to be attached to multiple passages - with the note icon appearing on each passage
4. improve the performance: keyboard entry, long notes and note files
5. retain "deleted" notes for a period of time - permitting a restore function
6. allow referenced resources to be shown in full
7. implement additional sort sequences - canon, created date, last modified date, user note title, highlighting. This requires add date and time stamp to notes - created and last updated
8. allow setting of default block icon color to be set at the file level (currently all defaults to yellow)
9. integrate a journaling feature - a note file that automatically includes date in the title and automatically sorts on date
10. allow a search directly on the contents of notes - all notes whether in note files or guides
11. remove the size limitation on notes in the passage and exegetical guides
12. allow tags on all notes as well as the ability to search on those tags
13. when the note is attached to a specific text permit any highlighting style to be used in the resource
14. allow notes and note files to be merged or split
15. include spell checker in notes
16. have search on note file open with appropriate notes expanded and the search terms highlighted

here is one item that i did not see in the list:

When a note file is open and positioned to a specific note, its position should be remembered in a Layout (whether a saved Layout or just reopening the layout via opening Logos). i often open a layout and have to meticulously scroll to find the position of the note that i had visible when i last updated the layout or closed L4.

tom collinge said:

I reported this as a bug just the other day: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/30731.aspx

Thanks Tom! i see that i am not the only one in pain about this situation...[:'(]...lol.

I said it in the thread that fostered this one, but I will say it again:

As far as I'm concerned, Logos is a NOTE PROGRAM WITH SEARCH ABILITIES.

What I don't quite understand is how Logos can't comprehend the absolute vitality of Notes, particularly given the core audience and client base. Professors, researchers, and "clergy" are exactly the kind of folks whose usage patterns REQUIRE the vigorous use and application of notes. Though exactly how notes are used will differ from one individual to another, it is a crucial, critical aspect of what we do.

As I've said many times, my notes are almost worthless to me once extracted from the Logos program itself. Talking to me about third party options is pointless. My notes literally become an integrated part of my Bible. Notes are such an important part of my usage that I can say unequivocally that I will stop being a Logos customer if my L3 program ever ceases to function as I require it to...unless L5 introduces a ROBUST notes function. L4 is essentially designed to not have notes because they almost chose not to include a notes function. What they have in L4 at this time is little more than a patch...reminding me of Y'shuua's comment regarding the result of adding a new cloth patch to an old garment. I can't ever see L4 being able to do what I need, no matter what stop-gap measures they take.

Notes needs to be made in the image of L3, only moreso. I would like to post some screenshots of my notes, but I can't because I can't pin the notes--they disappear as soon as I move my cursor from the note icon. That needs to be rectified. A lot needs to be rectified. There is nothing Logos has in its oven that is as important to me as this subject. Period.

tom collinge said:

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for a sermon add-in subsystem.

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for clippings subsystem.

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for pbb subsystem.

There is a very good reason to have these addins.

As Logos4  is now built - to do all ths through notes would slow the program to a glacial crawl - and then wouldn't we be complaining?

I use an i7 700 and there are still 6-8 second delays as I try to rename layouts. Then I think it has not gotten the command, only to see the window flash uselessly by so I try it all over again. I've already deliberately removed my notes due to the "slowness" it builds into the system. We are much better of using a commercial  word processors. And yes I'm sorry that following that stream makes it so hard to search for things.

Libronix 3's problems were notes, searching and parallel resources. Well 2 out of 3 isn't too bad, is it? there is always hope for Logos 5.

To bring this conversation back to the original topic, here are my top ten needs (in order) for notes

1. #23. To be able to prioritize my notes (for an example, I can have all of my year c files to be a the top of the list when we are in year c).
2. #24. To have more note icon colors, (at less match the icon colors of L3 so that we do not lose the information that is contained in our icon color).
3. #2. permit at least as much formatting as in L3 which includes tables, illustrations, colored text, underlined text ...
4. #3. permit a table of contents panel similar to L3
5. #4. allow a note to be attached to multiple passages - with the note icon appearing on each passage
6. #15. remove the size limitation on notes in the passage and exegetical guides
7. #18. allow tags on all notes as well as the ability to search on those tags
8. #14. allow a search directly on the contents of notes - all notes whether in note files or guides
9. #12. allow setting of default block icon color to be set at the file level (currently all defaults to yellow)
10. #21. include spell checker in notes

MJ. Smith said:

I've run into the problem on the initial note of the passage guide - where I thought I was providing a short outline and summary of the passage but I exceeded the length limits. When I posted it as a bug, I was informed that the assumption was that you entered a short comment and there was no plan to change that.

MJ,

Are you talking about the notes that we can attached to a PG?  This is something that I have not done.  I just ran a test, and I copied a seven page document into one of the notes for a PG section, and it when I went back to the PG, all seven pages where there.

MJ. Smith said:

I agree with you that there is strong evidence that Logos development cycle shortcuts design. All the notes - in the guides, in notes, in clippings and arguably prayer lists - should use a common component. If that component is solid, fulfilling the request for a journal function would be a no brainer. The tagging component and the highlighting component should then easily apply to all of the note-like elements, rather than working here but not there. The weaknesses in Logos imply to me too much duplication of function too little reuse of well-designed components. I've had experience (less than ideal) with a development cycle of young web developers. I call it the code first think later approach; they tell me its prototype and not get the time from manager to go back and build the real deal. There is a reason UML was developed ... now if we could get the judicious use of it. Boy - do I sound like an old larger-system main-framer.

As an old large main-framer - Preach it sister!!!!!!!!!

MJ. Smith said:

tom collinge said:

Are you talking about the notes that we can attached to a PG?  This is something that I have not done.  I just ran a test, and I copied a seven page document into one of the notes for a PG section, and it when I went back to the PG, all seven pages where there.

I double checked - this does seem to have been fixed.

It looks like we can take the first item off the list. [:)]

Here are my top 5:

#2. permit at least as much formatting as in L3 which includes tables, illustrations, colored text, underlined text ...

#3. permit a table of contents panel similar to L3

#23. To be able to prioritize my notes (for an example, I can have all of my year c files to be a the top of the list when we are in year c).

#24. To have more note icon colors, (at less match the icon colors of L3 so that we do not lose the information that is contained in our icon color).

#18. allow tags on all notes as well as the ability to search on those tags

Preliminary list:

1. Implement parity with PC. A list of what that includes has been started here. (Please add to it if you note something missing.)
2. Change to right-click instead of x to delete a note (if that doesn't fall under 1?)
3. (#4, expanded) Allow a note to be attached to multiple passages - with the note icon appearing on each passage. And make it easy. It should be possible to attach the same note to all verses in a Passage List with just 1-2-3 clicks. Or to all references in a section in a cross reference resource. Or to all parallels in a Harmony. Or to all occurrences of a particular phrase in a search result list. Or to both a Bible verse and to all lectionary readings where that verse occurs. And the new note should be created with a default text: a linked list of all the references linked to that note.
4. Remove automatic highlighting when adding a note to a selection. Let the highlighting show only when hovering above the note icon. (Or, better, give us the choice to have it this way, since some obviously like it the way it is.) (I guess this is kind of a modified #19, or at least the two could be merged.)
5. Attach "selection notes" to the lemmas whenever possible, so that they too can show up in multiple Bibles.
6. (#9 and #JimT, modified) Implement an option not to sync personal notes etc, while still being online. Create secure storage of notes on our own computers, and easy retrieval from backup copies. (Individual deleted notes could be brought back by retrieving the whole older file, and then either replacing the newer file, dragging the wanted note[s ] back into the newer file before deleting the older one again, or merging the two files (#20).)
7. Make shift-click and cmd-click work for dragging multiple notes (I assume that would be ctrl-click for you PC folks). (This would also solve Tom's #23.)
8. (#11, modified) Implement additional sort sequences (- canon, created date, last modified date, user note title, highlighting. This requires add date and time stamp to notes - created and last updated). My wishes would be canonical order, liturgical order, alphabetical order, and personal order (see below). And free choice between sorting based on the first or the second field of the first line. And being able to group by icon colour might be useful as well (and would provide a second way of solving Tom's #23).
9. Add an option to Save This Order (so that one can temporarily sort e g canonically or alphabetically, and then go back to one's own carefully arranged personalized order.
10. (#14) Allow a search directly on the contents of notes - all notes whether in note files or guides.
11. (#David Paul, modified) Make the note pop-up window as large as the note requires, up to about 12*12 cm. Add scroll bar and draggable corner for larger notes. (Is this what you mean with #10, MJ?)
12. (#8) Add linkset functionality to notes.
13. (#12) Allow setting of default block icon color to be set at the file level (currently all defaults to yellow).
14. (#16) Permit notes to be attached to a lemma, liturgical date, search string.
15. (#6, expanded) Allow all links - to other notes, PDF's, mp3's, PowerPoint's, web, mind maps, photos...
16. (#20) Allow notes and note files to be merged or split.
17. (#22) Have search on note file open with appropriate notes expanded and the search terms highlighted.
18. Add more choices to the right-click menu when creating a note: Add a note to new note file, and Add a note to ... (with ability to choose between all existing note files, without having to open them first).
19. Add the ability to turn on note files in places where it's not currently possible, like in Passage Lists.
20. (#17 and #JimT) Allow the sharing of notes between users.

NB: I consider all these changes to be essential and urgent. The list only reflects the order in which I presently need them, not the order of necessity. I e some things further down will undoubtedly be more necessary to me in the long run, but right now I don't have enough notes to be absolutely desperate for them yet. Which is, of course, partly because Notes works so lousily!  

I can imagine wanting tables, pictures, more formatting options, more note icon colours/shapes, highlighting and tabs at some later time, and will be glad if it's there when I do, but I haven't felt the need so far. I'd also prefer the note icons to be smaller, but that's a cosmetic change for much further down the road.

I know too little about the TOC, the templates and the journal to take a stand. Can someone paste a screenshot of the L3 TOC, so that I can get an idea of it's usefulness? And explain the others?

I haven't had any performance issues yet, beyond the list linked to in 1. I imagine from what I read that I probably will have when I get more notes, but it's hard to rank something you haven't had a problem with yet.

I don't need a spell checker, since we've already got one in the Mac OS [;)]

tom collinge said:

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for a sermon add-in subsystem.

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for clippings subsystem.

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for pbb subsystem.

I've never seen the Sermon File or the PBB, and I haven't used Clippings much, but I suspect you're right. One could add:

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/541911-my-commentary?ref=title

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/1012817-add-a-make-it-yourself-catena-function-as-descibed?ref=title

So, yes, something really comprehensive is what I'd really want, but unfortunately I don't have the vision or the computer skills to outline it.

David Paul said:

As far as I'm concerned, Logos is a NOTE PROGRAM WITH SEARCH ABILITIES.

You mean it should be "a NOTE PROGRAM WITH SEARCH ABILITIES". [;)]

I met a Logos 4 user today, and he said he had many 1000's of books more than I do and I have between 2600 in Logos 4 and 3400 in Libronix 3.

He is working on his masters degree at a major Christian school and I brought up how great Logos was for doing research. He agreed 100%, but than brought up the fact that it was by far the best for doing research but it was extremely poor at being able to store that material in a usable way and launched in to how he used another bible software to store his findings.

Off course I thought about this thread and how true it is, we need the notes beefed up!  One more note, he doesn't use Logos 4 much because the notes are better in Libronix 3. 

Now here is a man that loves Logos and has spent a lot of money on it and uses it all the time, but as he said, they are kind of stubborn when it comes to fixing their notes problem.

It remind me how important it is to have a thread like this one to bring things to their attention, but God opened my eyes to the importance of praying for them about this feature, that God will either show them or show us what to do!  Maybe I am the stubborn one, shock!  I must admit I can not imagine a person that uses the program all the time not desiring a better note system.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

fgh said:

Ah, sorry! I thought you were talking about prioritizing your notes, within your note files.

No problem, I was not clear enough in my posting of what I was asking.

fgh said:

I know too little about the TOC, the templates and the journal to take a stand. Can someone paste a screenshot of the L3 TOC, so that I can get an idea of it's usefulness? And explain the others?

Here is a screen shot for one of my note files.  Notice the TOC is on the left just like every book in L3/L4.  If I want to go to a different part of the note file, I can just scroll through the TOC, click on the note I want to read, and the I am at the note.

For a template example, here is the template that I use for my sermon prep.  It would be nice to start every note in this note file with this information instead of coping it and then pasting it.  NOTE: this note file contains a table that the import process does not convert.  Therefore, this file is worthless in L4.

And this is what the note looks like when I am done with it:

tom collinge said:

Here is a screen shot for one of my note files.  Notice the TOC is on the left just like every book in L3/L4.  If I want to go to a different part of the note file, I can just scroll through the TOC, click on the note I want to read, and the I am at the note.

Thanks. You have very long notes! 

Leaving that aside, I still don't really see the need. Doesn't Compact View (which I don't have yet on Mac) give just about the same, but without wasting valuable screen space?

And I don't write sermons, so I'm afraid I still haven't been able to figure out any personal need for a template. 

What would be useful, though, would be to be able to automatically create a note file with [empty] notes for every text in [part of] a lectionary, or every chapter in a book, or something like that, instead of having to create every note manually. 

Edde Anderson said:

I am down with all 22

Would that be MJ's original 22? There have been many more suggested since then. Plus she asked us to prioritize.

I agree that having the individual note "titles" (verse listings) in a separate window on the left like in L3 is much more helpful. That window has made my life and study easier on many occasions.

Hi Jack, welcome to the Forum!

Jack Nemeth said:

I would like to be able to move a note up or down in the group of notes I've already taken.

You can rearrange your notes by dragging and dropping them.

1.  Hover your mouse over the left edge of a note until you see a blue bar. Then click your mouse button (and don't release) on the blue bar and drag the note.

2.  As you drag your note Logos4 will show you a horizontal bar showing where the location that you can drop the note. When you get the horizontal bar where you want it release the mouse button to drop it there.

If you have a very large note file with a lot of notes you might want to use this technique as shown in the wiki article Quicker way to rearrange notes in a large Note file

Denise Barnhart said:

This whole discussion is fascinating. What mystifies me is the Logos Inc strategic product planning (which I'd assume is the CEO himself). The Logos value-added computation added the indexing and high-speed inter-resource connectivity. And then apparently subtracted the use of same, by dummying down the note function. I'd also assume the decision process was based on looking at the statistical user patterns (most user presumably not doing much with notes?).  But if Logos hopes to leverage L4 > church presentation software, the note function would be critical. Kind of an odd mystery. Plus I didn't know L3 was so good!

Hi Denise,

You are correct about the number of people who were using notes (statistical user patterns), and several people who said that they did not use notes in L3 stated that did not use notes in L3 came from the fact that the note feature in L3 was soooooo bad.

Notes in L3 were not that good, they are just a lot better than what is found in L4.  

Bob said this on July 4th, 2009,

Bob Pritchett said:

Let me start by saying we ARE improving notes in the next release, and implementing many of the most commonly requested features.

After close to a year and a half of L4 being sold to the public, I personally consider this statement nothing more than b.s.

Gregg Farah said:

Hi M.J.

So you've got some great data. What's next?

Any discussion with Morris Proctor on this topic? Would love his thoughts.

While I am not MJ, I can tell you that MJ did add this http://community.logos.com/forums/t/31366.aspx and she asked all of us to move our note votes to this request: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/1619077-rework-notes-function-in-one-or-multiple-phases.

May I suggest the attachment of notes to entire resources as well, for the writing of personal reviews / comments / thoughts about the resource as a whole.

Thanks.

LOL [:D]

John Duffy said:

Great idea - I've wanted to do this in the past but tried settling for adding notes to the start of a resource.  But I gave up very soon as I just wasn't able to know whether I had made any or not, without navigating to the start of each resource.

As a workaround, you could add a tag to resources with such notes (e g "reviewed"). That way you would at least know when you are in the Library if there is a note or not.

And I hope everyone who sees this has already voted at http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/1619077-rework-notes-function-in-one-or-multiple-phases?ref=title. [;)]