You can test the Alpha for free. When Logos finalizes the Logos 4 engine I'm guessing current users will be able to use the new engine without paying again.
Logos 4
Wes Porter
Member Posts: 8 ✭✭
I can't say I am too happy to find out that I have to pay another $69.00 to Alpha test another Mac application. I am shocked actually by this simple fact that I have paid for a sub par program that was promised more features which now I have to pay for again?
Or am I mistaken and I get a 4.0 upgrade for free???
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You can test the Alpha for free. When Logos finalizes the Logos 4 engine I'm guessing current users will be able to use the new engine without paying again.
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I have already paid for 3.0 Windows version, I have now paid for a defunct product that will not be supported with updated features (Current Mac Version). If I want the 4.0 windows version I have to pay another $69 dollars to get it and the alpha mac version.
Why don't the Mac Users just get the new engine for free. I guess I don't really understand if I get a free upgrade to 4.0 with the Mac version eventually (which doesn't seem clear) then shouldn't I get it now with both platforms?
I feel we are being nickeled and dimed on the engine.
Wes
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Where exactly would we locate this Logos 4 Alpha Engine for Mac (assuming it's for Mac since this is posted on the Mac forum?) Thanks! Abby
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By the way a link to the disclaimer
http://www.logos.com/mac/disclaimer
Notice this language - Please Note: You may purchase Logos Bible Software 4 for Mac Alpha right now, and use it on Mac or Windows
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Wes Porter said:
I feel we are being nickeled and dimed on the engine.
The Mac engine will be free from now on. You can download the (very early) alpha at:
http://downloads.logos.com/LBS4/LBS4MacInstaller/Logos4Mac.dmg
We do strongly recommend at least the minimal crossgrade, because it comes with some fantastic content that helps Logos 4 really shine, but it's not at all required.
Sorry for the confusion!
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Thanks so much Bob!
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So, did I pay ~$130 this morning for something I can now get for free?
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Bob Pritchett said:
We do strongly recommend at least the minimal crossgrade, because it comes with some fantastic content that helps Logos 4 really shine,
If it includes the Hymn sheets, pictures files, historical people/places/things...you will not be disappointed crossgrading.
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Dave Ketah said:
So, did I pay ~$130 this morning for something I can now get for free?
No, you purchased the new resources in the package, the engine is given away free in windows
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Phew! I'm already having a wacky enough day without adding another thing! [:)]
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OK, so if we install the new Logos 4 engine, but don't pay for the upgrade, we'll have all our existing resources, right? And they'll work within the framework of Logos 4?
It's just a resource upgrade that we pay for - just wanting to clarify! That said, the upgrade path makes me want to move up from the Leader's Library!
L5 on Lenovo Thinkpad, i5, windows 7 pro | Logos App on Samsung Galaxy S3 | Logos App on tablet soon
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Jonathan Griffiths said:
OK, so if we install the new Logos 4 engine, but don't pay for the upgrade, we'll have all our existing resources, right? And they'll work within the framework of Logos 4?
It's just a resource upgrade that we pay for - just wanting to clarify! That said, the upgrade path makes me want to move up from the Leader's Library!
Correct. All would work well, you would not enjoy some of the new (very nice) stuff Logos offers in the LE packages. You are right. It is good time to get something better. Look to the Compare List of Base Packages.
Bohuslav
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Bob, please read this as a friendly question and not a criticism (it is difficult to express emotion via text). I would like to add that I feel a bit ripped off having to pay for another engine so early after paying for the Mac engine (which is not working so well with Snow Leopard). That aside I have some questions:
I use Original Languages with a Mac engine. Why do I need to upgrade to the new ver 4 OL? The books now included are really not worth the money (for me)
Are you saying (based on what is written above) that Mac users will never have to pay to upgrade to version 4?
Could you please explain to the Mac users the time line expected? Are we talking days, weeks, Months or a year? This one is important for me - I may revert to PC if it is a long time away.
I use Logos every day and am a little frustrated at the moment. My exegetical guide wont work properly and now I have no idea whether I need to upgrade, cross grade or down grade!
Thanks for taking the time to answer questions.
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Bob,
Users will not have to pay for the Mac engine. You will be able to get the new engine for free. Currently you can download the Alpha for free. When Logos 4 for Mac is complete, you will be able to get the full engine for free.
Right now what you would pay for is resources. Logos 4 includes a host of new features that are not useful if you do not have the resources installed. You can crossgrade an existing library to a version 4 library for a small cost, providing you with the new resources, or you can upgrade to the next library up the ladder and get even more resources.
The engine is free. The resources cost. If you want access to all the new features, you will have to pay so you can obtain those resources, just like when you buy books.
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its been 9 hours and this this STILL isn't indexed yet????
at least its bogging down all my resources.
River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org
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Bob,
Alpha 1, brother.
In the early betas of the PC version, some people reported 15 hrs or so of indexing. That improved significantly as development continued, it will improve for the Mac version. But it will still take a while Logos is digging through all of your resources to build lightning-fast search sets.That said, I've had continued issues indexing Logos for Mac. That is, even though indexing will complete, it often seems to start indexing again for no apparent reason. Hoping the recent build will fix that. I'll find out when I'm done indexing!
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I too, find this most frustrating. I bought a product expecting it to work as it should and with a full feature set. Logos for Mac 1 never has had either of those things. Whilst I welcome Logos 4, and the idea that I will finally have a product that might do what I expect and have the features I've paid for (many months ago), I am astounded that we're still in Alpha territory. Not even a Beta? Not even an indication of a timeline?
I really do understand the 'primacy of the PC' for Logos, but guys, if you want us to go forward with you I think you really need to do better.
I think, also, it would be more honest to not point the www.macbiblesoftware.com page to the www.logos.com/4 page, as it gives the impression of a finished product available for the Mac, which is manifestly not the case. If you do that, at least move the link to the disclaimer to the landing page, not to the next one.
Colin
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Quick to complain but slow to recant. The Mac Alpha was always free, you just had to ask instead of complaining.Wes Porter said:I have already paid for 3.0 Windows version, I have now paid for a defunct product that will not be supported with updated features (Current Mac Version). If I want the 4.0 windows version I have to pay another $69 dollars to get it and the alpha mac version.
Why don't the Mac Users just get the new engine for free. I guess I don't really understand if I get a free upgrade to 4.0 with the Mac version eventually (which doesn't seem clear) then shouldn't I get it now with both platforms?
I feel we are being nickeled and dimed on the engine.
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Colin, I think you bring some legitimate questions.
Pointing the Mac to the Logos 4 page is misleading. It should point to the Alpha page if anything.
I think the reason, in part, Mac is in Alpha is a decision about not paying to design Logos 4 twice. I was in the Beta group for Windows (but am I Mac user). The features changed a lot over the past 6 to 8 weeks. If Logos was developing both Windows and Mac at the exact same time, they would have to pay two groups of developers to make the same changes. By finishing Windows first, it make a clear path for the Mac developers to develop features that are already "set". Point being, it keeps costs low. At least that is my opinion, but Bob may have something better to offer.
That being said, I would like a timeline of some sort 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years?
Logos had 15 developers working on "Windows and only 5 on Mac, so how does that impact the timeline?
All good questions.
Meantime, I am quick to add that I trust Bob and the Logos team to be fair with us. They have demonstrated solid Christ-like character over the years, so I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt when I don't know all the answers. That is my 2cents--you can decide if it is worth even that.:-)
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I noticed Bob in another thread mentioning that Mac development would bring the Mac version up to speed in a matter of months. Months, not years. Number of months was not specified, but this will not be a long, drawn-out development process resulting in a substandard product. Within a month or so we should see nice progress of the Alpha, and in a few months we will really start to be pleased.
As things stand, I'm impressed with development, and I'm usually quick to criticize this sort of thing. Yes, I would love to see a full-featured Mac app already up and running, but I'm pleasantly surprised things are already where they are.
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I'm really sorry the Mac product isn't completely finished. We'd planned for it to be.
For what it's worth, it has a disproportionate number of developers on it -- it's percentage of our dev team is bigger than its percentage of our sales.
But they got a late start, since we only shipped the earlier Mac product (built by another company) a year ago, and the Windows team had been working for a couple of years.
We're evening moving a developer over. And with updates every two weeks, you should see fast improvements. (We don't have to write the missing features, simply build their user interface. Easy for some features, harder for others.)
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Joe Miller said:
Colin, I think you bring some legitimate questions.
Pointing the Mac to the Logos 4 page is misleading. It should point to the Alpha page if anything.
I think the reason, in part, Mac is in Alpha is a decision about not paying to design Logos 4 twice. I was in the Beta group for Windows (but am I Mac user). The features changed a lot over the past 6 to 8 weeks. If Logos was developing both Windows and Mac at the exact same time, they would have to pay two groups of developers to make the same changes. By finishing Windows first, it make a clear path for the Mac developers to develop features that are already "set". Point being, it keeps costs low. At least that is my opinion, but Bob may have something better to offer.
That being said, I would like a timeline of some sort 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years?
Logos had 15 developers working on "Windows and only 5 on Mac, so how does that impact the timeline?
All good questions.
Meantime, I am quick to add that I trust Bob and the Logos team to be fair with us. They have demonstrated solid Christ-like character over the years, so I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt when I don't know all the answers. That is my 2cents--you can decide if it is worth even that.:-)
Hi Joe
I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt - I guess my point is that it should be possible to eliminate a great deal of doubt by being up-front about it all.
I really do take the point about economies of scale, and so on. I just think it is possible to communicate in an up-front, honest and straightforward way which leads to people saying "OK, I can deal with that."
I like Logos, and there's no doubt I'll upgrade (and spend yet more money!) - I would really just like to have someone tell me when I can expect a functional product. I'm happy to work with Beta products, but I don't do Alpha builds as I'm not a developer, and prefer not to deal with the hassles.
Col
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Thanks for your reply, Bob. I appreciate the information. I think "not completely finished" might be a tad hopeful, though - if it is an Alpha build that implies it is not close to finished.
I guess, for myself, I would simply ask that Logos acknowledges that your introduction of your Mac product (both v1 and this new v4) has been flawed. That doesn't mean you offer us money or anything like that.
I do note your comment:
Bob Pritchett said:But they got a late start, since we only shipped the earlier Mac product (built by another company) a year ago, and the Windows team had been working for a couple of years.
I take your point, but it is sort of Logos' problem, as that was how you chose to do it. It is annoying that I'm forced to make do with a sub-standard product which doesn't do everything it promises to do because of the way Logos has chosen to deploy resources.
Bob Pritchett said:For what it's worth, it has a disproportionate number of developers on it -- it's percentage of our dev team is bigger than its percentage of our sales.
We're evening moving a developer over. And with updates every two weeks, you should see fast improvements. (We don't have to write the missing features, simply build their user interface. Easy for some features, harder for others.)
Again - this is Logos' choice about how Logos deploys resources. I don't feel I should be thankful for Logos just working on a product it should be working on!
I'm not angry per se, I just want to point out the frustration that I feel. I suspect I might be joined by others. Businesses rightly exist to make money, and the way they do it successfully is to provide high quality product and service. Consumers do them a disservice when they don't provide forthright feedback. I could write a blog post venting my spleen, but I'd rather share it here.
Having said all that, I am appreciative of your provision of information. It is at least reassuring to know that someone is willing to take the heat!
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Colin Thornby said:
this is Logos' choice about how Logos deploys resources.
Hey, I'm not the one who chose the computer that's different from what 90% of the world uses...
<nervous smile>
Just kidding. We love the Mac.
We debated what do to here, and considered just continuing to sell the old version and not talking about Logos 4 for Mac until it was further along. I decided to ship the alpha and announce it, though, so that we could have one consistent message about what Logos 4 is, instead of a separate feature list for the Mac, and because I know what's happening internally. As raw as the alpha looks -- and is -- it's fundamentally the same code base. Moreover, many of our Mac users are actually dual platform users, and by offering one Logos 4 story -- even with a lame initial Mac release -- we let them get started in Logos 4 with the assurance that their data and settings will sync to the Mac.
Moreover, since the existing Mac product was missing so many features of the Windows product, it won't be long at all until the Alpha exceeds its functionality. So even if it's a few months before every Logos 4 feature is live on the Mac, it will be less time before Logos 4 on the Mac is ahead of the old Mac version.
It was a tough decision, and I'm the one who made it, however it turns out. We'll just have to see how far we can move the Alpha along in the next few weeks to see if it was a good decision or not. :-)
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Bob - i want to say that i appreciate the willingness to put the product out there right away for us. i believe i can speak for most (if not all) mac users to say i'm excited to see the alpha, as well as the finished product.
as of right now, its been "indexing my library" for over 12 hours... and i've yet to see the alpha product work. i am anticipating there will be much to produce my compliments and praising to others that i know. i have quite a few waiting to hear my review before they decide to purchase Logos or not. i'm truly hoping i will be able to boast of Logos for the mac when v.4 is working for me.
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Any plan for us to upgrade to ver 4 on a payment plan? Also how long will be the disount offer for exisitng Logos Ver 3 owner stay for?
"And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free", John 8:32.
"你們必定認識真理，真理必定使你們自由", 約翰福音 8:3.0 -
Bob, what about those of us who are using the Mac engine and are not able to use all of its features since upgrading to SL? The exegtical guide won't work properly. I have spoken with the Mac department and they have said they don't understand why it isn't working. Will there be a patch for that at all?
Also some idea of time would be GREATLY appreciated. When can we expect the full version (even a worst case scenario would be helpful!).
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Hi Joe,
Sorry just got back to the thread. A little busy today. Great I am glad there will be no cost associated with the engine upgrade. I guess thats why I asked if I was wrong.
I appreciate the work they are trying to do for the mac user base.
On another note the ad hominem against me is inappropriate to say the least. I was just trying to figure out what was the situation. The disclaimer was not clear. Thanks for your understanding. If I cam across a little annoyed my apologies. I was annoyed so I am asking for your forgiveness and anyone else's that I came across combative.
Thanks.
Wes Porter
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Steven Yu said:
Any plan for us to upgrade to ver 4 on a payment plan? Also how long will be the disount offer for exisitng Logos Ver 3 owner stay for?
Stephen,
I just posted an answer to this in Portfolio Price Too Steap thread.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ok so now after 14.5 hours of downloading and indexing... i am now being prompted over to "install and relaunch" over and over again. it then says "Updates for Logos Bible Software 4 are ready to be installed. Click OK to install them now." over and over again also.
it is just and endless cycle... really... after 14.5 hours!?? any suggestions?
River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org
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Pastor Bob Turner said:
Ok so now after 14.5 hours of downloading and indexing... i am now being prompted over to "install and relaunch" over and over again. it then says "Updates for Logos Bible Software 4 are ready to be installed. Click OK to install them now." over and over again also.
it is just and endless cycle... really... after 14.5 hours!?? any suggestions?
My suggestion is to wait for the Beta build. This one is an Alpha, has very little useable interface and is very unstable.
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actually it has no useable interface. i haven't heard from anyone on the Mac that has been able to use it.
River of Life Church: http://LifeOverflowing.org
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I think you will find that when you ask questions, Bob will chime in when we (some of the Beta testers) don't give the right answer. We have asked most of these questions over the past 8 weeks, and there have been many THOUSANDS of post that Bob has read and replied to. Right now, we are trying to help give the best direct answers we can to help during the busy time, but still you see Bob is in here answering with, IMHO, very direct answers. Can they do a better job? Sure, and I think Logos has responded very well to critique and made improvements to do better at communicating their position. Point being, ask questions, make challenges, and Logos will read and respond with integrity.Colin Thornby said:I just think it is possible to communicate in an up-front, honest and straightforward way which leads to people saying "OK, I can deal with that."
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Hi Wes, I hope now that you know the facts, that you have not been taken advantage of or "nickel and dimed" for the Mac version. You can still get support for 1.0. It is stable on Mac. The new Alpha is coded with ALL the features of the Windows version, it is only now getting the interface so we can access what is there. That is a very good position to be in and not the typical status of a traditional Alpha. Bob and his company have shown a lot of integrity in their treatment of us. Do they always make the perfect decisions? Do they alway make decisions that make every single user happy? No. But the good news is, I have come to trust that even when they don't do something "my way" they have a good reason to do it Bob's way, and usually it works out. There is nothing in the history of this process that leads me to think that despite some potholes, we are going to get a solid Mac product of equal value to the Winows product.Wes Porter said:I was just trying to figure out what was the situation.
Blessings to you brother,
Joe
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Bob,
I've been able to use it, it's just not terribly usable yet.
I can open resources, run passage guide, etc, but features are clearly missing and usability is limited.0 -
ok Chris. ty for clarifying.
can u do me a favor? i'd like to see a screen shot of what the home screen and some of the passage guide searches look like for the mac version. care to?
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MarkStevens said:
what about those of us who are using the Mac engine and are not able to use all of its features since upgrading to SL?
Be glad and rejoice ... those of us who upgraded to Logos 4 are now also waiting for incomplete features. Perhaps when we are all in the same boat, the heavens will let forth rain in torrents and .... and... and?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob,
I was actually in the process of making a screen shot for you when I encountered another problem.
I took a screen shot earlier of things in action, you can find it at http://www.seektheholy.com/2009/11/02/introducing-logos-4/#mac
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Wes Porter said:
On another note the ad hominem against me is inappropriate to say the least.
Wes, we all have our concerns about the software; each one different. Joe's comment about how you came across was not an ad hominem by defintion; just an accurate observation given what you said. It's not WHAT you said.....it's how you said it...as my mother would say.... [:D]
This might have elicited a different response:
"I'm a little confused; I'm a mac user who's already spent the money to buy the mac engine. Now that there is another version; do I need to repurchase it?
thanks in advance,
Wes...
Now isn't that just a little different than what you said about being nickle and dimed to death?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Hi Robert,
Thanks, I appreciate the kind feedback.
Wes
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Joe Miller said:
I think you will find that when you ask questions, Bob will chime in when we (some of the Beta testers) don't give the right answer. We have asked most of these questions over the past 8 weeks, and there have been many THOUSANDS of post that Bob has read and replied to. Right now, we are trying to help give the best direct answers we can to help during the busy time, but still you see Bob is in here answering with, IMHO, very direct answers. Can they do a better job? Sure, and I think Logos has responded very well to critique and made improvements to do better at communicating their position. Point being, ask questions, make challenges, and Logos will read and respond with integrity.
Well, I think I've asked questions and made challenges. Some of the challenges have been met with assertions, but the questions haven't been answered, to the best of my knowledge. I'm sorry, but I think that some of this (the marketing currently around the Mac product) is in the realm of marketing spin. There's nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with the tactic of putting out an Alpha to quieten the crowd. It is just that it would be nice to actually have an answer to the reasonable question: when will we have a Beta.
Only my opinion.
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Spoken like a true member of the marketing team!
Rich+
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I am with you on that. I would LOVE to know a timetable, but I doubt it will be made available. Even when we were doing the private Beta, no one knew the timetable for release. Those of us who agreed to blog, were only give a week advance on the secret launch date and had to agree to an NDA on that information.Colin Thornby said:It is just that it would be nice to actually have an answer to the reasonable question: when will we have a Beta.
Still, it would be nice :-)
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Bob Pritchett said:
Hey, I'm not the one who chose the computer that's different from what 90% of the world uses...
<nervous smile>
Just kidding. We love the Mac.
I really hope the Mac users get a highly polished, fine tuned version of Logos 4 soon. It does sound a little like the prodigal's brother jealously complaining. How about we all rejoice in the release of Logos 4 Windows and realize the "can do" team at Logos is now setting their sights on Mac?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Colin Thornby said:
It is just that it would be nice to actually have an answer to the reasonable question: when will we have a Beta.
Colin
I believe that Logos got badly burned with date-setting on the original release of Logos Mac (I was anticipating having it for Christmas 2006 or was it 7). Date-setting is probably anathema.
Jack
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I think it was Chrismas '05 Jack LOL
Logos is criticized if they release a date and if they withhold it. Either way, someone is going to complain that Logos is "mean" and does not run their business the "right" way.
For me, I would love to know the timeline, but I respect their decision to not share that info knowing they will get burned either way.
PS
I am not writing this in criticism of anyone above, so no flaming me please. I am only making a general observation based on the past 10 years of experience on the forums/newsgroups.
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Colin Thornby said:
It is just that it would be nice to actually have an answer to the reasonable question: when will we have a Beta.
Depends on what you call a beta. A stable version with all the features and just a few remaining bugs to hunt? No way to know.
A better version than today? Probably Friday.
Our goal is to do a new drop every two weeks until it's done. Which one of them represents the switch from Alpha to Beta is a subjective call. And I don't know how long it'll take before everything's there, but I can assure you we're on it at this very moment. (I'm typing in the forums, but the devs are coding!)
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JackCaviness said:
Colin
I believe that Logos got badly burned with date-setting on the original release of Logos Mac (I was anticipating having it for Christmas 2006 or was it 7). Date-setting is probably anathema.
Jack
I get that, I really do. Where the rankle comes for me is that I have a product (Logos for Mac) which doesn't do what I was told it would do when I bought it. Development has stopped on that - it will never do what it was advertised to do, as far as I'm concerned. In order to get the functionality I need I have to use the Windows version or wait for Logos 4. I thus don't know when I'll have a product I can use, despite the money I've paid for it. I think saying "well, the Windows version is good, use that while we work on the Mac version" is helpful for me - because I can do that - but not for other users who might not want to shell out money for Windows and virtualisation software.
Logos decided to enter the Mac market, presumably for business reasons. I doubt they did it as an act of altruism (nor would I expect them to). Saying something like "well, you're only 20% of the computing market" is silly if you decide you're going to develop for that market - you either do it, or don't - if you do it, then you do it properly. Personally, I don't think either Logos for Mac 1 or this implementation so far is properly. Only my opinion.
I have worked as the CEO of much larger companies than Logos, with more complex products and services. We stuck to the following dictum: Only promise what you can deliver, and deliver what you promise. That is what informs me when I say "be up front".
I suspect that Logos' credibility with Mac people who would like to use their product will be pretty poor when they click www.macbiblesoftware.com and get taken to a page which promises a finished product. They then click the Logos Bible Software for Mac tab and find a page that says "sorry, we only have an Alpha". It is a good way of alienating potential users, who, like a friend of mine who hasn't got a base package said "why should I pay to Alpha test their software?". If I hadn't invested lots of money in Logos resources I'd probably be going with a competitor's product right now (I would emphasise I do not have a competitor's product - except the rightly despised Pradis product). The people here on this form are, to a lesser or greater degree, committed to the product and are fans of the company - I therefore take the advocacy offered on behalf of Logos with a grain of salt. They're a business and should be told when consumers aren't happy with an element of their product or service. Again - my opinion.
I too look forward to Logos 4 on my Mac - but that doesn't stop me being forthright in my frustration about the implementation of it so far. Having said that, I have been forthright, feel that upsets people here, and I doubt there's much more I can offer, so I shall now stop.
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For what it is worth I have to agree with Colin's frustration. Sorry Bob and the Logos team, you did promise a better Mac version than you delivered thus far. We paid $60 for the mac engine which does not work properly with Snow Leopard and the help desk cannot help me fix that problem leaving me with an almost unusable product! Why can't Logos fix the problems I am having with 1.2.2 so I can actually use the program?
At the end of the day I am probably going to return to using a PC for sermon prep (it means building a new one) because I need something that works the way it should. I have spent far too long messing around with betas and then a sub standard mac engine to have to wait even longer for a mac engine.
Logos 4 looks great and I look forward to installing it. I must admit however, if i hadn't invested so much money in books for my libronix library I probably would have switched to another bible software by now. I don't mean to sound critical but the whole mac engine and now Logos 4 for Mac alpha has left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't think anything was meant by it, and I think Logos is a great product, but not on a mac.
Sorry, just the frustration I feel!
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What problems are you having with Mac 1.2.2 on Snow Leopard?
I'm just curious. You may have tried to do things that I haven't, but I have Snow Leopard and Mac 1.2.2 and can't remember having any problems other than the fact that I would like some features similar to Logos 3 for windows (who knows, maybe they will bring Mac 1.2.2 to the level of 3 over time). But, I would much rather them focus on Logos 4 for Mac right now... since I already have Logos 4 on my Mac ;-)
The interface isn't really there yet, but I am enjoying the upgrade in packaging.
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