BUG: Missing pagination in Vyrso books

Please notice the discussion in this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/33752.aspx

It seems like some - if not all - Vyrso books don't have page numbers.

Please, Logos: Pagination isn't some relict from the 20th century - it is essential. I won't buy any Vyrso title if this doesn't get fixed asap, especially given that they are more expensive than e.g. Kindle books.

Please also note the reports on the other things that should be changed in Vyrso books (same link as above).

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Comments

Tom Reynolds

While I don't agree that this is a "BUG" because it's obviously intentional I agree with you that page numbers are essential. I often blog about the books I read and I need to include page numbers in my comments so that those with the actual book can refer to it if they want to learn more. Admittedly mass-market books sometimes have different form-factors with different page counts but that's only if they are popular enough to be reprinted differently.

Obviously Logos has no interest in increasing costs in order to add page numbers to books that don't have them. There is a whole list of such books on the wiki (http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination_and_Other_Indexes) but to my knowledge not one has ever been fixed. Logos has lots of irons in the fire and this isn't a priority. However, to be releasing 15,000 or 25,000 books, most? without page numbers, isn't very helpful IMHO. Perhaps Logos could add this bit of info to the product description (as brief as it is) so we would know what we are getting.

Tom

Tobias Lampert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253104#Comment_253104

I don't agree that this is a "BUG" because it's obviously intentional

You're right about that, of course - I just wanted to make sure the Logos staff is reading this thread, since they do so with all threads about bugs! [;)]

I wouldn't care if the few books that are already available via Vyrso weren't fixed, although I think that it wouldn't be that much of an effort and although I would consider it only to be fair, since customers can expect Ebooks to come along with pagination (Amazon added it a while ago, so I'd say this is pretty much standard). My concern is, as you mentioned it, more with those 15,000 to 25,000 books that haven't been made available yet. I won't buy any other Vyrso book ever if this feature doesn't get added - Vyrso books already appear to be considerably more expensive than Kindle books, and I'm not willing to spend such an amount of money if I'm not convinced that having an Ebook in e.g. my Logos 4 has some real benefits opposed to having it in any other reader. And as your answer shows, I'm not the only one thinking this way.

With all the risks already connected to the launch of Vyrso (high-priced resources, proprietary file format etc.), I'd recommend Logos makes sure that Vyrso books are 'state of the art'.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253114#Comment_253114

Well, IMHO, and I say this with all respect, I won't be buying any of the Vyrso books if they don't even have support for page numbers much less anything else. It's not like they are cheap after all, and all I am getting is text that doesn't interact with anything?

Being able to use them in Logos 4 may have given me a false impression. If it's largely not more than text, for me who does not have a tablet/reader I now don't really see the value of looking at these resources. We'll see if Logos comments on the direction of these resources, maybe I have it wrong...

Tobias Lampert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253123#Comment_253123

Well, IMHO, and I say this with all respect, I won't be buying any of the Vyrso books if they don't even have support for page numbers much less anything else. It's not like they are cheap after all, and all I am getting is text that doesn't interact with anything?

That's what I'm saying! [:)]

Bob Pritchett

The eBooks sold at Vyrso.com are different from the Logos Editiosn at Logos.com in that they are created by the publishers (as EPUB format eBooks), not by Logos.

Some of them will have page numbers, and some won't, depending on the publisher's practice. Logos does not have the ability to add page numbers to these books if they don't have them; not only are we not creating the electronic book, we don't even have a paper copy to get the page numbers from.

I understand that page numbers are important to many people -- and Logos Editions support them. We go out of our way, and increase our expense, to add them to Logos Editions. We understand they are particularly important for academic purposes.

But, in general, I think we all need to get used to not having them, particularly as we enter a time when books start going direct-to-digital and never have a paper manifestation with numbered pages. We'll need to figure out alternate referencing systems.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253169#Comment_253169

in general, I think we all need to get used to not having them, particularly as we enter a time when books start going direct-to-digital and never have a paper manifestation with numbered pages. We'll need to figure out alternate referencing systems.

[Y]

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253169#Comment_253169

But, in general, I think we all need to get used to not having them, particularly as we enter a time when books start going direct-to-digital and never have a paper manifestation with numbered pages. We'll need to figure out alternate referencing systems.

I agree, but I am very happy when they do have them...especially because I am often reading the digital version going through it with somebody for counseling or discipleship. I prefer digital but when they have print, I need to be able to reference the pages. This has been the reason why I used to have major issues using Kindle books (they have since started trying to put page numbers in books).

So I'm glad that the ability is there and that many publishers will provide them if their epub supports it.

I am very excited that the breadth of digital books that I'll be able to have centrally located in my Logos Library is increasing.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253169#Comment_253169

The eBooks sold at Vyrso.com are different from the Logos Editiosn at Logos.com in that they are created by the publishers (as EPUB format eBooks), not by Logos.

This new addition of large volumes of works not published by Logos (and potentially creating the ability to create links in books that Logos has published to these newly published resources) makes my suggestion of a year ago all that much more helpful and necessary. http://community.logos.com/forums/p/11689/253311.aspx

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253169#Comment_253169

Bob,

Do any of the books offered on vyrso have page numbers?

I note that the Amazon version of the Bonhoeffer book is also lacking pagination but the only other Amazon book I checked (Same kind of different as me) does offer pagination.

EPUB books naturally offer the possibility to include pagination. Some publishers include this information, others do not. Some include it in their later offerings but have not modified their earlier source files.

Please ensure that where possible pagination is included.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253315#Comment_253315

Please ensure that where possible pagination is included.

Some of them will have page numbers, and some won't, depending on the publisher's practice

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253319#Comment_253319

Jacob,

Thanks. Obviously I can't read!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253169#Comment_253169

But, in general, I think we all need to get used to not having them, particularly as we enter a time when books start going direct-to-digital and never have a paper manifestation with numbered pages. We'll need to figure out alternate referencing systems.

The page metaphor will never go away fully for text-based content.

http://designdare.com/-page-flips-are-better-than-infinite-scroll

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253341#Comment_253341

The page metaphor will never go away fully for text-based content.

Rosie -

I agree with some of this sentiment. As someone who took several courses in typography, I have come to appreciate good design... however... one of the advantages of ebooks is that you can adjust the typeface and point size to suit your taste. From a designer's viewpoint this is blasphemous! From someone who likes smaller type in the morning and LARGER type at night, this is a selling point.

It is also important to consider that people will be consuming this media on a variety of devices. Many of the new tablets are smaller or larger than the iPad. What looks great on a 9.5 inch iPad, would look teeny tiny on an iPhone.

With all of that said, what does a page number really mean, especially if a resource was never actually printed?

The best argument for page numbers came from Tom: "I often blog about the books I read and I need to include page numbers in my comments so that those with the actual book can refer to it if they want to learn more."

Just my 2 cents [:)]

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253169#Comment_253169

But, in general, I think we all need to get used to not having them, particularly as we enter a time when books start going direct-to-digital and never have a paper manifestation with numbered pages. We'll need to figure out alternate referencing systems.

We understand they are particularly important for academic purposes.

Until alternate referencing systems accepted by academia are in place, the need for page numbering, will not go away, that said I do understand, if they aren't in the files you are getting, then they are not there. Till we get there Bob, what a shame, I say, the data is there for you to work with, simply because we are still in that transitional period and it will be important.

Maybe we go back to the future with a system of chapter and paragraph numbering for quoting from e-texts. I envisage the paragraph number would only be made visible when you require it, rather than it being there in the way all the time......just a thought.

TomB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253356#Comment_253356

The best argument for page numbers came from Tom: "I often blog about the books I read and I need to include page numbers in my comments so that those with the actual book can refer to it if they want to learn more."

Most digital book readers and Apps that I have used offer a way to search for a word or phrase within the text. If I qoute a book on my blog that is in digital format and someone wishes to read that part, all She has to do is open the book on her ereader and search for the phrase. This feature actually works even better for the spoken word... If I am delivering a sermon and quote a book you are not likely to remember the page number (I am also far less likely to give it in the middle of the sermon). However you will probably remember a few key words or a phrase. Then you can go home open the book and search for it.

Page numbers are not actually as useful as we may think they are. And as digital books become more prevalent and readers become more accustom to their power things like page numbers may become far less important.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257855#Comment_257855

If I qoute a book on my blog that is in digital format and someone wishes to read that part, all She has to do is open the book on her ereader and search for the phrase.

You're assuming that just because you have the book in electronic format, she does too. In real life, she most likely has it on paper, and won't be able to find the quote unless you give the page number.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257855#Comment_257855

...all She has to do is open the book on her ereader

TomB -

The key to the other Tom's comment was "those with the actual book...", which I presume he meant a physical copy - fgh was right to point this out.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257858#Comment_257858

In real life, she most likely has it on paper...

fgh -

I think that you are right but this is QUICKLY changing. Amazon sold more ebooks last quarter than physical ones for the first time. I think that that is probably a little inflated because some indie authors have "made it big" by selling short stories dirt cheap. Nevertheless, ebooks are poised to decimate the paper book industry in the near future. Stores which did not take this seriously enough [i.e. "Borders" in the U.S.] have felt the consequences of their inaction.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257909#Comment_257909

In real life, she most likely has it on paper...

fgh -

I think that you are right but this is QUICKLY changing. Amazon sold more ebooks last quarter than physical ones for the first time. I think that that is probably a little inflated because some indie authors have "made it big" by selling short stories dirt cheap. Nevertheless, ebooks are poised to decimate the paper book industry in the near future. Stores which did not take this seriously enough [i.e. "Borders" in the U.S.] have felt the consequences of their inaction.

This is definitely true of trade books, but I wonder how long it's going to take for scholarly books to catch up? I would really prefer to do all my scholarly research in digital books, but those ones are never the ones that are available in Kindle or other e-book formats. The few others that are available you have to be a member of an academic research library in order to gain access to (e.g., via Oxford Scholarship Online). Questia and Highbeam Research are two exceptions, where the general public can pay for a membership and gain access to all the books they have in their format. But I'd love to be able to get all these books in Logos format since I like the research tools Logos gives me (note-taking, highlighting, integration with the rest of my library).

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257909#Comment_257909

I think that you are right but this is QUICKLY changing.

I read an article on this yesterday. In the US 1 in 10 sold books is an ebook -- which still means 9 in 10 are on paper. And that's just the new ones. Pretty much everything people have that's bought more than a very few years ago will be on paper as well.

And in Sweden less than 1 in 1000 sold books is an ebook...

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257913#Comment_257913

fgh -

One in Ten ebooks - that is the definition of decimation! [:D]

I agree that paper books will be around for a while, but I think the market will change very fast. It would not surprise me to see ebooks become the standard within 5 years.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257912#Comment_257912

... I wonder how long it's going to take for scholarly books to catch up?

I think that in some circles it may take longer, but most of the market will move in this direction fairly quickly. I just graduated this May with my MDIV. Before my 2nd son came along, I worked for a local Barnes & Noble collegiate bookstore. Most books were printed, but there was a growing number of ebooks being sold. Students are being given the option of "renting" an ebook version of their textbook.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257918#Comment_257918

I think that in some circles it may take longer, but most of the market will move in this direction fairly quickly....Before my 2nd son came along, I worked for a local Barnes & Noble collegiate bookstore. Most books were printed, but there was a growing number of ebooks being sold. Students are being given the option of "renting" an ebook version of their textbook.

That's encouraging news. I'm perhaps not the typical customer. I'm no longer a student, so I wouldn't have access to things where you have to be a student to get them, but I'm a life-long learner and avid researcher, for my own interest as well as for writing, freelance teaching/tutoring, and helping others. I often find myself interested in books that might not be a required textbook at any educational institution I've ever been associated with but which I want to read and have access to digitally nonetheless. Here are a few random examples from my recent Amazon.com browsing history:

Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (60 Volumes)
Philosophy of Technology: The Technological Condition - An Anthology (Blackwell Philosophy Anthologies)
The Sinews of the Spirit: The Ideal of Christian Manliness in Victorian Literature and Religious Thought
Science and Religion: Some Historical Perspectives (Cambridge Studies in the History of Science)
Truth, Beauty, and Goodness Reframed: Educating for the Virtues in the Twenty-First Century

None of those are available in digital form, at least not through Amazon.

Hopefully in 3-5 years, my experience will be different. Hopefully most of the books I come across that I want access to I'll be able to get at digitally.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257922#Comment_257922

Rosie -

The last book on your list (Truth, Beauty, and Goodness Reframed: Educating for the Virtues in the Twenty-First Century) IS available on Kindle.

Thanks for sharing your interests with me. I am fairly eclectic, but unfortunately I don't have the time to read as broadly as I would like. The book on Christian Manliness sounds interesting... but not at that price!

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Beauty-Goodness-Reframed-ebook/dp/B004P1JDYO/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2&qid=1307924979&sr=1-1

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257945#Comment_257945

Rosie -

The publishers of the books you listed (Wiley, Oxford University Press, and Cambridge University Press) are moving towards ebooks. Two have ebook stores. I don't think your titles are being offered, but there is hope!

http://www.the-digital-reader.com/2011/01/12/oxford-university-press-to-launch-ebook-distribution-platform/

http://www.cambridge.org/us/knowledge/ebooks/item2271099/?site_locale=en_US

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257951#Comment_257951

Cool! I guess I've been behind the curve a bit. More exciting news (thanks for letting me know about that blog, The Digital Reader):

http://www.the-digital-reader.com/2011/01/12/jstor-to-add-ebooks-in-2012/

http://www.the-digital-reader.com/2010/09/10/ebooks-coming-to-project-muse-next-year/

Ward Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/257960#Comment_257960

I like page numbers--the point of reference is a comfort and helps me guess at how long it will take me to get through a resource.

Chuck P.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/259424#Comment_259424

Page numbering is very important to me especially in the Logos4 platform. I do most of my reading on my Iphone...currently reading a Tozer book and a Muller book which I find quite a bit of mispelled words. I copy the portion of the passage with the mispelled word, get the page number and email myself from the Iphone to my computer. The next time I get into Logos4 on the computer, I check the email, bring up the page number in the affected book and report a typo....wish I could do this directly with the Iphone, but is the only way for now.....

Chad Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253169#Comment_253169

Some of them will have page numbers, and some won't, depending on the publisher's practice.

I bought Lit!: A Christian Guide to Reading Books on Kindle a while back because, unfortunately (at that time), it was not available on Logos.com or Vyrso.com. It does have page numbers on Kindle. I have so many Vyrso books (none with page numbers as far as I'm aware) that I'm lacking confidence that the Vyrso copy now available would have them. Can anyone verify whether or not Lit! has page numbers on Vyrso/Logos? If not, there needs to be a degree of accountability over the publishers to ensure both have page numbers when one version does. I am very grateful to have Vyrso books in my Logos library (which is the whole reason why I shop on Vyrso), but until the world transfers completely away from the printed book and redefines how to provide citations, this will always be a big frustration to me.

It should be noted that Kindle books without page numbers can still be cited by location, but Vyrso books lack this kind of system as well. EPUB format for Vyrso needs to provide us some point of reference. When I am doing a book study with others and want to discuss a quote, I'd rather not have to say, "You can find it a little past halfway through the 25-paged-chapter." Unfortunately, I've had to say such ridiculous things already because of this problem.

At the very least, Vyrso books without page numbers should be advertised and sold as such - and the publishers should be aware of this. If they want to sell their books to those who care about such reference points, they will take the time to include them.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/338793#Comment_338793

It should be noted that Kindle books without page numbers can still be cited by location,

I don't own a kindle device, probably not likely to but I use kindle on iPhone and PC and from my usage particularly on PC is that location marker is changes depending on the size of the text and width of screen (think re-sizing window on PC) you use, so never taken it as a reliable citation method, but I only use is sporadically so I might be missing some other feature in Kindle that you are referring that is truly a fixed location marker.

Ralph Mauch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/339338#Comment_339338

so I might be missing some other feature in Kindle that you are referring that is truly a fixed location marker.

Hey Andrew, I'm just getting my feet wet with the Kindle Fire, but there are two ways to mark where you are at, one is with a "page marker" and then it also has a line on the bottom with a percentage of where you are at when in the change mode (not sure what to call it, when you can select stuff from the device itself).

I recently purchased a kindle book, and now wish I would have gotten hard copy... when in my reading group from church, everyone with a hard copy can go to their notes and say what page they're on... by the time I figure it out with the Kindle the hour is up [:(] . Again, I purchased a Vysor book for the Kindle and didn't check to see if it had page numbering... totaly useless when I meet with a young man I'm mentoring (back to the hard copy). I guess Amazon, and Vyrso are somewhat alike in their thinking, it's Ok for pleasure reading, but when trying to use the resource for anything else, it's useless!!!

I've stopped buying Vyrso books because of this reason, and am not getting any more Kindle books for the same reason. I'm enjoying my Logos resources, because they DO have page numbers!

Agreeing with all the folks that want some kind of page/reference number when purchasing Vyrso books!!

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/338793#Comment_338793

It should be noted that Kindle books without page numbers can still be cited by location, but Vyrso books lack this kind of system as well. EPUB format for Vyrso needs to provide us some point of reference. When I am doing a book study with others and want to discuss a quote, I'd rather not have to say, "You can find it a little past halfway through the 25-paged-chapter." Unfortunately, I've had to say such ridiculous things already because of this problem.

In Logos you can copy the location for Vyrso books (it's in the resource pull down) if they own the book it should take them to the specific location.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/375884#Comment_375884

In Logos you can copy the location for Vyrso books (it's in the resource pull down) if they own the book it should take them to the specific location.

So if you're sitting in a small group discussing a particular book and want to direct them to a particular passage, you intend to copy the url, e-mail it to the other members of the group, and wait for them to get it and click it? That's going to hamper the discussion a bit, don't you think? [:P] (Not to talk about the fact that it requires everyone to use the Vyrso version, and to have access to the internet during discussions.)

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/375922#Comment_375922

In Logos you can copy the location for Vyrso books (it's in the resource pull down) if they own the book it should take them to the specific location.

So if you're sitting in a small group discussing a particular book and want to direct them to a particular passage, you intend to copy the url, e-mail it to the other members of the group, and wait for them to get it and click it? That's going to hamper the discussion a bit, don't you think? (Not to talk about the fact that it requires everyone to use the Vyrso version, and to have access to the internet during discussions.)

I could be wrong, but it looks like that is the model for Faithlife, which is one reason I am not that excited about it.

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/375922#Comment_375922

In Logos you can copy the location for Vyrso books (it's in the resource pull down) if they own the book it should take them to the specific location.

So if you're sitting in a small group discussing a particular book and want to direct them to a particular passage, you intend to copy the url, e-mail it to the other members of the group, and wait for them to get it and click it? That's going to hamper the discussion a bit, don't you think? (Not to talk about the fact that it requires everyone to use the Vyrso version, and to have access to the internet during discussions.)

I was referring to posting on Faithlife site itself in the group page...not in a small group discussion in person. You could post the location of what you are going to discuss in the group's page before you meet.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/378465#Comment_378465

I was referring to posting on Faithlife site itself in the group page...not in a small group discussion in person.

Exactly. You were responding to people who were in small group discussions with others using paper books, and who had huge problems because the others had page numbers while they didn't. And your solution was to copy the url and post it on Faithlife...