Vyrso Page Numbers?
Do Vyrso books have page numbers?
I don't see any when I look at Vyrso books in Logos 4.
Thanks.
Comments
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Sogol said:
Do Vyrso books have page numbers?
Like most eBooks, Vyrso books do not have page numbers.
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Thanks for the info.
Kindle eBooks originally did not have page numbers (just "Locations"), but now many of them show both page numbers and locations. I think that this was a very smart move by Amazon.
For academic work, page numbers are important in eBooks for citations (I know that most Vyrso books probably are not used in academic work, but I'm sure it could happen).
Perhaps more commonly (and this has happened to me before), page numbers can be important when you have people in a small group or Bible study group reading a popular book together. Some people may have paper versions while others have eBooks. It's really difficult when someone with a paper version says "Look what it says on page......" and you have no way of getting there in your eBook.
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I understand and can appreciate your desire for page numbers, however, they are unlikely to come to Vyrso. The biggest reason is because the Vyrso conversion process is automated. If Logos wants to remain competitive price wise with Amazon, this must be the case.
The biggest reason for page numbers is the small group scenario. Citations for academic works can be made without page numbers.
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alabama24 said:
I understand and can appreciate your desire for page numbers, however, they are unlikely to come to Vyrso. The biggest reason is because the Vyrso conversion process is automated. If Logos wants to remain competitive price wise with Amazon, this must be the case.
The biggest reason for page numbers is the small group scenario. Citations for academic works can be made without page numbers.
That's a bummer. I think the page numbers issue is a pretty important one for me, and may tip my preference in favor of Kindle for most popular books. It just seems like it wouldn't be tremendously complex to come up with a fairly automated way (technological or otherwise) to flag the page breaks.
As for academic citations, I'm guessing that someone had probably posted a standardized way to do it (Turabian maybe?). However, the problem still remains that when most people quote sources, the vast majority still use page numbers. Thus looking up a reference in a Vyrso book becomes a challenge (again, I doubt books available in Vyrso format are frequently referenced, but I'm sure it happens on occasion).
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Hasn't Logos said somewhere that page numbers are included if the files they get from the publisher include them, and not included if the files they get from the publisher don't include them?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
Hasn't Logos said somewhere that page numbers are included if the files they get from the publisher include them, and not included if the files they get from the publisher don't include them?
I believe that is for Logos resources, not Vyrso ones. I have been known to be wrong before, however. [:)]
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Sogol said:
I think the page numbers issue is a pretty important one for me, and may tip my preference in favor of Kindle for most popular books.
Make sure when you get one that it actually has the "Contains Real Page Numbers" logo.
Sogol said:It just seems like it wouldn't be tremendously complex to come up with a fairly automated way (technological or otherwise) to flag the page breaks.
The page numbers are added in during the final stages of a printing. The "page numbers" depend upon the shape and size of the paper printed on. This will change, of course, with different printings. Logos isn't receiving the page number info.
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[quote]
The page numbers are added in during the final stages of a printing. The "page numbers" depend upon the shape and size of the paper printed on. This will change, of course, with different printings. Logos isn't receiving the page number info.
I believe that Kindle books with page numbers give you the ISBN of the edition which the page numbers are based on.
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fgh said:
Hasn't Logos said somewhere that page numbers are included if the files they get from the publisher include them, and not included if the files they get from the publisher don't include them?
Yes: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/33789/253169.aspx#253169
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I was looking at the preview for the book Platform by Michael Hyatt and it showed page numbers. So if you look at the preview it should give you some indication as the whether the book has page numbers or not.
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Philana Crouch said:
I was looking at the preview for the book Platform by Michael Hyatt and it showed page numbers. So if you look at the preview it should give you some indication as the whether the book has page numbers or not.
Great info, Philana. Thanks!
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One of the things I LOVE about L4 is its versatility. I can download a book in Vyrso, highlight, etc. and it is available for me on all my various devices and in L4. Great stuff!!
Having said that, I think having page numbers is super important. I have downloaded a number of more academic works in Vyrso (e.g., The Deity of Christ) and the fact that I have no idea which page I am on is a serious handicap if I want to use it for academic purposes. Pages are required for citations. I wish Logos would remedy this. It is a serious deterrent for me.
Thanks for the great work you all do. I love L$ and use it on a daily basis.
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Welcome to the forums William!
William Emberley said:Pages are required for citations. I wish Logos would remedy this.
Unfortunately, it does not make much sense for Logos to add page numbers. It would add great cost and time into the mostly automated process. I did want to point out, however, that every citation scheme will have some way to cite sources w/o page numbers (such as websites).
Also, I noticed that you were concerned primarily about some of the more "academic" titles in Logos. If Logos creates a "Logos Edition" (rather than a "Vyrso" one), it is my understanding that you will receive a free update. This would probably include the page numbers. [:)]
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Thanks for the reply. I presently use Zotero as an add on to my Microsoft Word for citations so I have access to a number of citation schemes. I am not sure how your suggestion solves the problem of no page numbers. I am not in a position to assess the costs, etc. I am sure they are substantial and prohibitive.
Regarding your second point, how do I know if these resources qualify for updates and how do I go about making the update to L4?
Again, thanks for the help.
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alabama24 said:
Unfortunately, it does not make much sense for Logos to add page numbers. It would add great cost and time into the mostly automated process.
You're right, unfortunately, but they could push the publishers harder for files that already include page numbers. Since the books have been published on paper, and generally fairly recently, I would imagine such files must exist.
William Emberley said:how do I know if these resources qualify for updates and how do I go about making the update to L4?
You don't need to know or do anything. The update will download automatically.
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(Duplicate post that couldn't be deleted.)
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William Emberley said:
I am not sure how your suggestion solves the problem of no page numbers. I am not in a position to assess the costs, etc. I am sure they are substantial and prohibitive.
I don't think you understand… what I mean is that Turabian, MLA, etc. must provide methods for citing books w/o page numbers. To further assist others in locating the proper location, you could use a logosres. If you own Luke for Everyone or The Hour that Changes the World, click on the links below.
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I do not have the resources you hyperlinked.
Yes, you are correct. I did not understand. Any online resource needs to be cited, and therefore the accommodation by Turabian, etc. Vyrso would fall into that category. Do I have it right? When I was finishing my degrees, online sources were not allowed. Dating myself I know.
One follow-up. Can I know ahead of time which resource offered via Vyrso is Logos compatible? For instance, Tim Keller's "Center-Church" offered today by Vyrso.
The help is very much appreciated!
Bill
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William Emberley said:
Can I know ahead of time which resource offered via Vyrso is Logos compatible? For instance, Tim Keller's "Center-Church" offered today by Vyrso
Bill,
all Vyrso resources are Logos-compatible. In works as Keller's, you probably won't see a difference.
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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Any vyrso can be read in logos. If there are no page numbers in the vyrso book, then there will not be any page numbers in the logos book.William Emberley said:which resource offered via Vyrso is Logos compatible
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I apologise for my poorly worded question. It was a follow-up to an earlier discussion regarding citing Vyrso resources in footnotes. Apparently some Vyro books are upgradable by Logos and others are not. As mentioned, in Vyrso page numbers are not available. I would like to know before purchase.
Thanks
Bill
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William Emberley said:
Apparently some Vyro books are upgradable by Logos and others are not.
I think you have misunderstood… Some resources were sold first in Vyrso, but removed so that they could be sold in Logos. When this happens, the resource moves from a "Vyrso edition" to a "Logos edition." There is no way to know which Vyrso editions may turn into Logos editions. Logos tries not to sell two versions of the same book.
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William Emberley said:
Apparently some Vyro books are upgradable by Logos and others are not. As mentioned, in Vyrso page numbers are not available.
Bill,
I think you misunderstand.
As far as we are told, Vyrso books undergo an abbreviated, mostly automated production process. The publishers deliver a file (ePub or whatever), a process much like the PB compiler runs over it and generates automated bible verse references, a minimal QA is performed and that's it. In case of books that are meant for reading cover to cover (such as fiction or life-help) this is perfect and Logos resources look just the same and work just the same. In case of theological books and commentaries, Vyrso books will lack the references to other works in your library.
According to my understanding, Vyrso books may contain page numbers, if the publisher had them in the original file. Most publishers don't. Vyrso books then contain the same page numbers as e.g. ePub's you can buy from elsewhere.
Since the Vyrso books have the same format as Logos books, there is no technical restriction for them to have or don't have page numbers. And since they have the same format, they don't need to be upgraded to be "Logos compatible". There is no such thing as "Logos-upgradeable" Vyrso books.
There are very minimal instances when someone at Logos or at the publisher decides that a former Vyrso-book should be offered in Logos. In these cases (maybe ten books in total of the 10k Vyrso books) Logos takes them out of the Vyrso offering and submits them to the Logos production process which especially includes the tagging of cited literature (if in Logos) etc.pp. They may include page numbers in this process to match a printed edition - but this is only a possibility. There are Logos resources without page numbers as well.
Since Logos don't want to have two editions of the same book, they will upgrade the Vyrso books to the Logos edition when the Logos edition ships. But this may take a considerable amount of time. There's no point in waiting for it, typically the Logos book will be more expensive and the added functionality may not be helpful (it depends on the references and your library). And as I said, this happens only in a few instances.
EDIT: Alabama, you were faster than I
Have joy in the Lord!
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Page numbers are definitely important for academic works. I recently bought a book through the Vyrso store to use as a reference for an academic paper and am discovering only today that I will apparently need to go an buy the Kindle version as well just so I can get the page numbers for citations. Definitely not pleased about this and as has been said by others this will play a role in my decision of whether to buy from Vyrso or from Amazon in the future. I understand needing to be competitively priced but if the product being offered is similar price with less usability then it isn't really much of a decision.
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Which book?
Gentry Morris said:I understand needing to be competitively priced but if the product being offered is similar price with less usability then it isn't really much of a decision.
You are absolutely right. Kindle books have much LESS functionality. [;)] They <might> have page numbers (not all do by any means!), but can you copy and paste [very limited, if at all]? Can you include the book into your personal library and perform a LIBRARY search and serendipitously find material from a forgotten resource [nope!]?
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If you are doing academic work, don't you also have access to a library? Your institution should also provide for the citing of ebooks.
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