I have supported this suggestion before: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/11686/387275.aspx#387275I would like to have the 1966 Jerusalem Bible Reader's Edition or the similar 1975 Bible In Order, Joseph Rhymer, Editor
Discussions: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=9841027#post9841027
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I wrote something interesting about the JB: UnixHere's a review of it: Read More...... ... one reviewer says that: "The "Jerusalem" version is really popular in England, France, and Canada." (November 4, 2006 Bradley Headstone "Sean ARES Hirsch" (New York)) (5 star review).... one reviewer says that: "the Jerusalem Bible has had broad appeal across denominational lines. It has been particularly popular among Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox." (December 7, 2000 Lance Goldsberry) (5 star review).
Here's a brief introduction to the Jerusalem Bible: http://www.whs.humanists.ca/lib/bible.jerusalem.html
http://jimmyakin.com/2005/01/the_new_america.html-> "The Jerusalem Bible doesn't feel even slightly Catholic in its renderings.
I am very happy to have the NJB in Logos and would love the chance to buy the Jerusalem Bible, especially if they got the full Bible with it's notes.
-Dan
The NJB is not good and has sometimes more translation errors, see for example this reply by a real Bible translator: http://www.christianforums.com/t7625834/
The JB is not the predecessor of the NJB. The NJB is a standalone version. Henry Wansbrough lies in the foreword to the NJB. When I collect information about different Bible versions I investigate things and don't believe the marketing.
I'm not asking for the full notes of the Jerusalem Bible Standard Edition. I don't have any study Bibles, I use real commentaries instead.
http://www.tyndale.org/TSJ/6/day.html
Has a good comparison of translation styles… NO translation is perfect and the original JB had serious flaws… The Psalms in the original JB I was told had several places where Yahweh was removed for stylistic reasons and replaced by God, I am told all these have been corrected in the NJB. Obviously each translation has flaws, the one pointed out above as you pointed out means the same thing although removes the mystical number 3, which is most sad, Judaism has always held several numbers in high regard (40, 3, 1, 7, 12, 10, and perhaps to a lesser extent 5 ). I am lucky enough to own the JB in 3 copies (the Large readers edition with Dali's art work, an imitation leather readers edition and the standard edition with slipcover) and I will consider myself extremely lucky to get it in Logos if we have the chance. The notes are important in these editions for explaining choices and translation anomalies, very often i see lit. "whatever" and then stating why a less than literal translation is made. I feel JB will be a wonderful addition to Logos, and I hope they go after it, but I will continue to use and love the NJB.
The Jerusalem Bible is ecumenical. See for example this: http://www.christianforums.com/t5002516-2/#post32939286Those of You who have time to wade through, can read and participate in discussion at: http://www.christianforums.com/t7653202-3/#post61844962... please bump that thread and also this thread!
I just added the link to this thread Jerusalem Bible or 1975 Bible In Order to my Christianforums signature: so You who are not members of community.logos.com can register without having to make an initial purchase. Post here to support the typesetting so that we get this available in Logos sometime in the future!Quote: "The Jerusalem Bible (NOT the New Jerusalem Bible) is one of the best translations I have found. I recommend it...for both the Old and New Testaments." ... post number49 posted on october 31. 2010 02:44:37 GMT+1h by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a tea party descendant - steeped in the Constitutional legacy handed down by the Founders)... from: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2617732/posts
Google "I like the jerusalem bible": https://www.google.se/#hl=sv&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22i+like+the+jerusalem+bible%22&oq=%22i+like+the+jerusalem+bible%22&gs_l=hp.3...274705.280705.1.280937.13.13.0.0.0.3.151.954.11j2.13.0...0.0...1c.1.F8xAIrvDBqA&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=cf332b451947a901&bpcl=39650382&biw=1024&bih=611... 11,200 search results (0.43 seconds).... compared to "I like the RSV-CE" https://www.google.se/#hl=sv&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22i+like+the+RSV-CE%22&oq=%22i+like+the+RSV-CE%22&gs_l=hp.3...133071.134256.2.134874.6.6.0.0.0.0.200.660.3j2j1.6.0...0.0...1c.1.oUPYcmia50M&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=cf332b451947a901&bpcl=39650382&biw=1024&bih=611... 13,000 search results (0.35 seconds).... and compared to "I like the 1984 new international version" no results for that phrase.... and compared to "i like the nrsv-ce": https://www.google.se/#hl=sv&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22i+like+the+nrsv-ce%22&oq=%22i+like+the+nrsv-ce%22&gs_l=hp.3...81764.82843.4.83598.7.7.0.0.0.1.194.513.6j1.7.0...0.0...1c.1.EPvRwNne2EA&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=cf332b451947a901&bpcl=39650382&biw=1024&bih=611... 4 search results (0.32 seconds).
... and compared to "i like the nasu" bible: "https://www.google.se/#hl=sv&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22i+like+the+nasu%22+bible&oq=%22i+like+the+nasu%22+bible&gs_l=hp.3...21088.21699.6.22350.6.6.0.0.0.0.57.308.6.6.0...0.0...1c.1.zMtWDa7mfn0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=cf332b451947a901&bpcl=39650382&biw=1024&bih=611... 3 search results (0.26 seconds).... and compared to: "I like the NET bible": https://www.google.se/#hl=sv&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22i+like+the+net+bible%22&oq=%22i+like+the+net+bible%22&gs_l=hp.3...233069.234778.7.235199.5.5.0.0.0.1.162.348.4j1.5.0...0.0...1c.1.ekzOUfh4UNk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=cf332b451947a901&bpcl=39650382&biw=1024&bih=611... 7,410 search results (0.35 seconds).
Yahweh is my shepherd,I lack nothing.
In meadows of green grass He lets me lie.To the waters of repose He leads me;there He revives my soul.
He guides me by paths of virtuefor the sake of His name.
Though I pass through a gloomy valley,I fear no harm;beside me Your rod and Your staffare there, to hearten me.
You prepare a table before meunder the eyes of my enemies;You anoint my head with oil,my cup brims over.
Ah, how goodness and kindness pursue me,every day of my life;my home, the house of Yahweh,as long as I live!
PSALM 23 The Good Shepherd Psalm of David. Yahweh is my shepherd,I lack nothing. In meadows of green grass He lets me lie.To the waters of repose He leads me;there He revives my soul. He guides me by paths of virtuefor the sake of His name. Though I pass through a gloomy valley,I fear no harm;beside me Your rod and Your staffare there, to hearten me. You prepare a table before meunder the eyes of my enemies;You anoint my head with oil,my cup brims over. Ah, how goodness and kindness pursue me,every day of my life;my home, the house of Yahweh,as long as I live!
PSALM 23 The Good Shepherd Psalm of David.
I'm sort of foud of it! Guess maybe eventually I'll have to do my own translation
1 [Psalm Of David] Yahweh is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
2 In grassy meadows he lets me lie. By tranquil streams he leads me
3 to restore my spirit. He guides me in paths of saving justice as befits his name.
4 Even were I to walk in a ravine as dark as death I should fear no danger, for you are at my side. Your staff and your crook are there to soothe me.
5 You prepare a table for me under the eyes of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup brims over.
6 Kindness and faithful love pursue me every day of my life. I make my home in the house of Yahweh for all time to come.
I quoted the Jerusalem Bible, you have quoted the New Jerusalem Bible. I personally like both with perhaps a little more personal favour towards the NJB.
Peace, Dan! I always appreciate your sharings! *smile*
How beautiful is God's Word! How Beautiful our Christian Faith!
Oh taste and see that the Lord is good! Psalm 34:8
Come, everyone who thirsts,
Part of my problem is I have so many favourite "Scripture Passages" and so many favourite Bibles that I'm hard-pressed at any given moment to choose and so many favourite Logos Resources!
It's like going into a Vacation Hotel Dining room with a fantastic and splendid smorgasbord! *smile*
fgh, please remember us this YuleTide!
A special Swedish type of smörgåsbord is the julbord which is the standard Christmas dinner in Sweden. Julbord is a word consisting of the elements jul, meaning Yule (today synonymous with Christmas) and bord, literally table. The classic Swedish julbord is the highlight of Swedish cuisine, a traditional smörgåsbord starting with bread dipped in ham broth and continuing with a variety of fish (salmon, herring, whitefish and eel), ham, small meatballs, head cheese and sausages, potato, boiled or potato casserole, soft and crisp bread, butter and different cheeses, beetroot salad, cabbage (red, brown or green) and rice pudding and beverages.
I just upgraded to the Verbum Logos software and requested that the Jerusalem Bible be added as a translation. It is just a beautiful translation. Good to see others want it as well. I hope it can get added soon.
Peace, Brennan!
I have the New Jerusalem Bible which I love, available only in U.S. and Canada. I live in Ontario, Canada. Where do you live? If you're in North America, it's available now for you. *smile*
I WANT THE JERUSALEM BIBLE OR THE BIBLE IN ORDER!"I like the 1984 NIV": https://www.google.se/#q=%22i%20like%20the%201984%20niv%22&nfpr=1&ei=htXFUKn8NuOH4gS1soCABw&sqi=2&start=0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1354675689,d.bGE&fp=cf332b451947a901&bpcl=39650382&biw=1024&bih=613... only 7 search results (0.3 seconds).
http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?6570-The-Jerusalem-Bible... the two first posts by Cyril D. and Fr Cyprian (Humphrey).
http://thecatholicwriter.com/catholicwriter/something-to-say/... "I use mainly the Jerusalem Bible for my readings."
Review of the CTS New Catholic Bible. This has many differences to the JB and NJB: http://catholicbibles.blogspot.se/2011/06/guest-review-cts-bible.html
More recent information about the Jerusalem Bible, for example a source about that it's ecumenical: http://www.christianforums.com/t7707894-post61974325/#post61974325
A recent post about the JB: http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=10153535&postcount=4
I have 7 different versions of the Bible. 1) The King James Version, 2) The Revised Standard Version, 3) The Ryrie Study Bible - New American Standard Version, 4) The New International Version, 5) The Darby Translation, 6) The New Revised Standard Version, and 7) The Jerusalem Bible.
I first read the Bible, (Revised Standard Version), cover to cover in 1973; and concluded it was real, because someone, a very long time ago, knew far more about the future than any human being could have possibly known.
I then read the Jerusalem Bible (copyright 1966, by Darton, Longman, and Todd Ltd.) cover to cover taking notes. Wherein any subject that raised my interest, got entered, (subject, chapter, verse-s), on the top of a blank page in my notebook, and any further references to that subject or any related subject, got thier subject, chapter, and verse-s entered on that page.
After that I read all 7 versions that I have, comparing them on a verse by verse basis, to see if any one version was more accurate than others. Once finished, I concluded that the Jerusalem Bible was the most accurate overall of the 7 versions I have, the New Revised Standard Version the second most accurate, and the Darby Translation the third most accurate.
For what it is worth, SEE : http://imageshack.us/a/img407/1921/idiotsheet001.jpg
SEE ALSO : http://studygodsletter.org/index.php?topic=30.0
Welcome to the Logos forums. With Logos you can update the technology behind your work.[;)]
comparing them on a verse by verse basis, to see if any one version was more accurate than others.
What original language version did you use to determine accuracy? I happen to be very fond of the Jerusalem Bible, especially the translation of Ps. 4. But I'd be hard pressed coming up with a heuristic for accuracy that I would apply broadly.
For what it is worth
$0.00?
Peace, JHM! *smile* Welcome to the Logos Forums where Logos Bible Software users from around the world help and encourage and support and enlighten one another 24 hours a day !
Actually, Logos does not sell The Jerusalem Bible! I am very pleased indeed to have The New Jerusalem Bible which seems to be available ONLY in Canada and The United States. I really like it! *smile*
This translation, often used in the Catholic Church, follows the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. For the Old Testament the "Masoretic Text" established in the 8-9th centuries AD by Jewish scholars, is used. Only when this presents insuperable difficulties have emendations or other versions, such as the ancient Greek translation begun in 200 BC at Alexandria, the "Septuagint" (LXX), been used.
Note: Due to licensing restrictions, the New Jerusalem Bible can only be sold to customers whose billing address is in the United States or Canada.
Hi, JRM! *smile*
I noticed this was your first post to the Logos Forums....
If you are not familiar with Logos Bible Software, we'd be glad to share with you. You may also research Logos at Logos.com.
Also, you mentioned in your post the NRSV, I believe. I also have that in Logos and thought I'd give you a screen shot to help you see some of the power of Bible Study with Logos Software.
MJ mentioned Psalm 4, so I plan to do a personal study of Psalm 4 in the next few days, looking at dozens and dozens of various aspects ....
ooopsss ......... The Forums Software has been acting up lately ... .png screen shot doesn't seem to work ...
edit: will send a .jpg....
Welcome to the Logos Forums where Logos Bible Software users from around the world help and encourage and support and enlighten one another 24 hours a day !
If we're going to do this 24 hrs per day, it only stands to reason that many of us are going to need enlightening at any particular time. [;)]
Hi, George! I think you are an "enlightener" from the part of this wonderful globe that our Gracious God has placed you on....
I'm sure you live on one of the four corners of the world, eh???? The sun's ready to descend here in Eastern Canada ... You should have another two hours where you live, George, before sunset??? Enjoy! *smile*
Is anyone here interested in WHY I found the Jerusalem Bible to be the most accurate translation of the seven different versions I possess ?
OK, I'll bite. Why did you find the Jerusalem Bible to be the most accurate?
I am very interested. What I think I may have discovered over the years is that one version gets "kudos" on a particular passage .......... another version does another section well ................
Later on I'll share my main version ... and why I use that one .... (if this conversation does go that far ...)
I asked HOW and got no response ... I suspect your WHY would be an adequate answer.
Very well, but not easy. My "Scripture Studies Documents" run over 100 pages long.
1) An example is to be found in Genesis 19 : 22-23 (2 of 7 versions accurate)
2) An IMPORTANT example is to be found in Zechariah 6 : 6 (only accurate version)
3) An example is to be found in Isaiah 34 : 14 (3 of 7 versions accurate)
4) An example is to be found at Genesis 31 : 42 & 53 (only accurate version)
5) An example is to be found at Isaiah 34 : 13 (5 of 7 versions accurate)
6) An example is to be found at Revelations 6 : 1-8 (most accurate version)
7) An example is to be found in the "Lord's Prayer" (2 of 7 versions accurate)
See : James 1 : 13
NOTE : If anyone here wants a copy of my "Scripture Studies", PM me an email address to send them to.
Very well, but not easy. My "Scripture Studies Documents" run over 100 pages long. 1) An example is to be found in Genesis 19 : 22-23 (2 of 7 versions accurate) 2) An IMPORTANT example is to be found in Zechariah 6 : 6 (only accurate version) 3) An example is to be found in Isaiah 34 : 14 (3 of 7 versions accurate) 4) An example is to be found at Genesis 31 : 42 & 53 (only accurate version) 5) An example is to be found at Isaiah 34 : 13 (5 of 7 versions accurate) 6) An example is to be found at Revelations 6 : 1-8 (most accurate version) 7) An example is to be found in the "Lord's Prayer" (2 of 7 versions accurate) See : James 1 : 13 NOTE : If anyone here wants a copy of my "Scripture Studies", PM me an email address to send them to.
None of this shows what you consider to be "more accurate." 100 pages isn't necessary, but a few examples would be helpful. Since I read the original biblical languages, I will be the judge regarding your assessment.
Peace, JHM!
*smile* Right now I have so many projects going that I would be able to do justice to a serious study of your work; so, I wish you well -- and God's Blessings -- but I'm going to "pass" at this time........
PM me an email address to send them to
Note that there's no way to PM other users on the Logos Forums. You'll have to check back here to see if people post their email addresses for you.
I would caution anyone who is considering posting your email address (most of you know this already) not to post it in machine-readable format. Disguise it somewhat so that spam bots won't pick it up. Actually, I would be surprised if spam bots haven't gotten smarter these days such that they're able to detect the pattern username (at) domain (dot) com. I suggest that people encoding their email addresses be more creative than that.
OK, if you can understand it, my email is g(eorg) f(riedrich) somsel in Gulliver's land of the brutes.
g(eorg) f(riedrich) somsel in Gulliver's land of the brutes.
Great way to protect yourself from all but the most intelligent of real human beings. We'll see if our high-IQ friend qualifies. [:)]
Actually, I would be surprised if spam bots haven't gotten smarter these days such that they're able to detect the pattern username (at) domain (dot) com. I suggest that people encoding their email addresses be more creative than that.
I can't say if they have or not, but I'm glad someone finally said that. Most of the formats often recommended in forums are just as easily scraped with a smart regex or simple parser as if it were written out normally. I strongly agree in using a smarter format such as saying that I have signed this post with my user name and you can use it to find me on gmail, yahoo, live, facebook, twitter, etc. Separating the user from the domain by unusual illegal chars such as a carriage return/line feed and a sentence or two should do wonders.
Kindest Regards,simsrw73
simsrw73
Randy, thanks for sharing your contact info. BTW, your yahoo address is available in standard email @ format online on your SmugMug site. Also on a pc review site in the uk (probably nothing you can do about that one, though, as you posted as a guest so you probably can't log in to a profile to change your username from your email address).
Do you mean @gmail ? If not, you can join the "Bible Scholars Forum" for free and we can exchange PMs there.
http://biblescholarsforums.com/index.php
You will also find my posts on :
"The Fallen Angels Code"
"The Nicolaitans Code"
and a lot of other interesting items there. Jeremy Chance Springfield, (an expert who has done a literal translation of the "Peshitta"), is also a member there.
As for an example, re Isaiah 34 : 14 (3 of 7 versions accurate - The Jerusalem Bible, The New Revised Standard Version, & The Darby Translation), SEE :
http://studygodsletter.org/index.php?topic=28.0
Yeah, I don't do much to disguise myself online. You can google my name, "Randy W. Sims" or user name and come up with most of my contact info as well as quite a bit of my history in various forums and newsgroups (Perl, C++, ferrets, photography, and who knows what else). I prefer to be as open as is reasonable these days.
Twitter, however, is the one thing I know least about of all the forums. I use it because of the Logos deals, and have never bothered learning more. I just spent a few mins trying to figure out how to pm hello.
As far as spam, I think it also has a lot to do with where you post. So far, I'm elusive... Or at least I haven't been scraped in any of the circles I've been in where I did share my info-Maybe spammers don't like ferrets. But, for those unsure it's better to be safe.
I don't use it much, but I seem to have amassed a number of followers. Not sure what profound thing they're waiting for me to say.
You can pm someone by going to your profile page (click on "Me") in the toolbar at the top, then click on the envelope icon under your picture, then click "New message", start typing the person's name or Twitter ID, cursor down until you select that person in the list of matches, hit tab, then click in the message body area, type in the text of your message, then click Send Message.
As far as spam, I think it also has a lot to do with where you post. So far, I'm elusive... Or at least I haven't been scraped in any of the circles I've been in where I did share my info-Maybe spammers don't like ferrets.
Maybe they haven't been able to ferret you out. Or else your ISP does a good job of filtering spam before you even see it.
BTW, is Shayne your nickname? Do you prefer to go by that or Randy?
Maybe they haven't been able to ferret you out.
[:D]
Shayne is a nickname, and I prefer to go by Randy. As it's told, my family didn't want to call my Jr or Randy II or generally confuse me with my dad. They also didn't want to call me by my middle name, Wayne, since I was named after my uncle who had recently lost his life in Vietnam. So supposedly, my grandfather named me Shayne, after his favorite western (Shane), but somehow they spelled that wrong or thought I was worth an extra letter or thought I had an extra letter loose or something. lol. All way too long and complicated. But generally my family calls me Shayne, and everywhere else (work, school) I've always introduced myself as, and preferred Randy. That's my dad's name and I'm proud to carry it.
Re "The Lord's Prayer" See :
Matthew 6 : 9 - 13 (Darby Translation)
Thus therefore pray ye : Our Father who art in the heavens, let thy name be sanctified, let thy kingdom come, let thy will be done as in heaven so upon the earth; give us to-day our needed bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors, and lead us not into temptation, but save us from evil.
Matthew 6 : 9 -13 (New International Version)
This then is how you should pray. Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
Matthew 6 : 9 - 13 (King James Version)
After this manner therefore pray ye : Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil : For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 6 : 9 - 13 (Revised Standard Version)
Pray then like this : Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil.
Matthew 6 : 9 - 13 (Ryrie Study Bible - New American Standard Version)
Pray, then in this way : Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.] - Though this may have been added later.
Matthew 6 : 9 - 13 (Jerusalem Bible)
So you should pray like this : Our Father in heaven, may your name be held holy, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven those who are in debt to us. And do not put us to the test, but save us from the evil one.
Matthew 6 : 9 - 13 (New Revised Standard Version)
Pray then in this way : Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your Kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one.
Note that there are two different meanings put forth in these seven versions of the "Lord's Prayer". One urges GOD not to lead mankind into temptation, and the other urges GOD not to "Put us to the test" or "Bring us to the time of trial"
Now See :
James 1 : 13 (Darby Translation)
Let no man, being tempted, say, I am tempted of God. For God cannot be tempted by evil things, and himself tempts no one.
James 1 : 13 (New International Version)
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.
James 1 : 13 (King James Version)
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God : for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
James 1 : 13 (Revised Standard Version)
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God", for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;
James 1 : 13 (Ryrie Study Bible - New American Standard Version)
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
James 1 : 13 (Jerusalem Bible) Temptation
Never, when you have been tempted, say, 'God sent the temptation'; God cannot be tempted to do anything wrong, and he does not tempt anybody.
James 1 : 13 (New Revised Standard Version)
No one, when tempted, should say, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.
Note that the seven versions of James 1 : 13 are consistant in their meaning. GOD DOES NOT TEMPT ANYBODY.
Now See Matthew 13 : 24 - 30 (King James Version)
Matthew 13 24-30: The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares13.25 among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
See Note 13.25 Ryrie Study Bible
13.25 : tares. Weeds, in this case probably darnel, which in the blade resembles wheat but which can be distinguished from wheat when fully ripe.
Note : The Jerusalem Bible substitutes "darnel" for "tares" each time they appear in both the foregoing and the following passages. Discussing these passages with someone more knowledgeable than I regards agriculture, I was informed that "Darnel" is a weed which is indistinguishable in appearance from "Wheat" until such time as the wheat bears fruit. The meaning of Matthew 13 : 24 - 30 is made explicitly clear by Matthew 13 : 36 - 43 which follows.
See Matthew 13 : 36 - 43 Ryrie Study Bible.
Matthew 13 36-43 : Then he left the multitude, and went into the house. And his disciples came to Him saying, "Explain to us the parable of the tares in the field." And He answered and said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels." "Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age." "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."
Note : The foregoing two passages make it perfectly clear that there ARE "Children of the Devil" on earth NOW, and there have been for a very long time, (Since the days of Jared) .That being the case, there are also TWO "Fathers in heaven", i.e. GOD, and the Devil. Further it would seem to me that "Leading people into temptation" is more the Devil's sort of work.
I pointed all this out to Jeremy Chance Springfield, (an expert translator of the ancient Biblical scripts), and he checked both the Aramaic and the Greek and found : I quote :
"Concerning what you pondered over about "temptations/trials," you may be surprised (as I was) to find out that in BOTH Aramaic and Greek, the word used in each can mean EITHER temptation or trial/test!"
So it would appear that the Bible was arranged to allow people to pray to the "Father" of their choice. Which "Father" do you pray to ?
All this is just ONE example of why I find the Jerusalem Bible to be the most accurate translation overall, though in this specific case the "New Revised Standard Version" is slightly better.
I think you have just shown that your claim that the Jerusalem Bible is more accurate is without foundation. "Lead us not into temptation" is a perfectly accurate translation on the basis of syntax and lexicography. It would appear that your objection is based on an attempt to harmonize various passages. This is an extreme example of attempting to impose a doctrine of scripture upon the text which is not supported by the facts. Your attempt to resort to Aramaic in support of your theory does not provide any shelter for you from the facts since, in case you haven't noticed, the New Testament was not transmitted to us in Aramaic but in Greek.
I enjoy the JB/NJB because unlike most of our translations the JB, like the NEB, has not stated this is too different… they have looked at the original and made their best educated translation of it. Most all translations you compared are descendants of KJV….even the NIV with all it's claim of fresh translation maintains itself as ultra traditional in it's handling of the texts. Now I value tradition greatly, and do not think it should be ignored but trying to have a fresh look with no preconceived direction is good.
1) Mr Springfield has given me to understand that the "New Testament" is available both in "Greek" and "Aramaic".
2) He also made it clear that in BOTH languages the word used could be either translated as "Temptation" or "Trial/Test"
3) The Bible must be consistant. James 1 : 13 very clearly states that GOD does not TEMPT, ergo the correct translation would be "Bring us not to the time of trial"
But believe what you will.
1) Mr Springfield has given me to understand that the "New Testament" is available both in "Greek" and "Aramaic". 2) He also made it clear that in BOTH languages the word used could be either translated as "Temptation" or "Trial/Test" 3) The Bible must be consistant. James 1 : 13 very clearly states that GOD does not TEMPT, ergo the correct translation would be "Bring us not to the time of trial" But believe what you will.
Aramaic is but a translation of the Greek. You cannot legitimately determine which translation is more correct based upon your desire to be "consistent" in doctrine. YOU may BELIEVE WHAT YOU WILL, but facts are stubborn things which will come back to bite you in the rear. We don't even know for sure what language Jesus may have spoken. In some places it seems that he may have spoken Hebrew while in others it appears he may have spoken Aramaic. Hebrew and Aramaic are closely related just as English, as it is properly spoken here in the United States [;)] and the British version of English [:D]. Nevertheless, the two are different languages. I had a discussion with Randall Buth regarding this very matter. In "Wars" 5.271-272 Josephus says
As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; (272) accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried out aloud in their own country language, "THE SON COMETH:" so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm.
Buth contends on this basis that Josephus spoke Hebrew rather than Aramaic since the words "son" and "stone" would not be confused in Aramaic. I would contend that this is evidence that Josephus DID NOT understand Hebrew. This is based on
I therefore do not support the resort to Aramaic in an attempt to resolve difficulties in the text.
Recently a woman who raises money for a major cancer research center was talking about a lecture she had gone to recently - part of her job. It suggested that if one wishes to share information successfully when the initial understandings are different one must (and I adjust slightly for forums and situation).
1. State your case clearly and precisely so that the listener can accurately restate your position.
2. The listener then improves your position by correcting any errors of fact or logic in your position. Your job is to insure that they stay true to your position.
3. The listener then identifies those parts of your position that they agree with or agree to with minor modifications that do not change the thrust of your position.
4. Only then does the listener present counter-arguments for those parts of your position with which they disagree - and the roles are reversed.
These forums are for discussing how to use Logos software, not for promoting our own work per se. Regardless of how bright or how educated one may be, if one begins with "activated ignorance" your results will be flawed. "Activated ignorance" is a technical term in critical thinking that refers to using base premises that are false out of ignorance. It is called "activated" because we all have lots of ignorance but unless it is actively used in the argument or presuppositions, our ignorance is irrelevant.
So, to return to my original response to you that provided you the opportunity to share your work, until I know what you mean by accurate and your heuristics for determining accuracy I cannot correctly interpret your example.
Given that no autographs exist of the NT, given that any autograph would be in Greek, this appears to me to be flawed in two ways:
I say this based on the assumption that by Aramaic NT you are referring to the Peshitta used by the Church of the East i.e. Syrian church and likely the first translation from the Greek. Like all the early translations - Old Latin, Georgian, Armenian ... - it is indeed a useful aid in determining the most likely contents of the autograph from among the many variations in our available manuscripts.
I will ask Mr. Springfield if he wants to contest this issue with you; because he has done a series of literal translations of the Peshitta; and he is of the firm opinion that the Peshitta predates the Greek versions, and has given a very large number of reasons for believing this.
I personally cannot even read the various ancient languages, but I did proofread a large number of Mr. Springfield's literal translations of various books of the Bible, which have very extensive footnotes showing that the Peshitta is the older version. i.e. The Greek was translated from the Peshitta.
I will ask Mr. Springfiel if he wants to contest this issue with you; because he has done a series of literal translations of the Peshitta; and he is of the firm opinion that the Peshitta predates the Greek versions, and has given a very large number of reasons for believing this. I personally cannot even read the various ancient languages, but I did proofread a large number of Mr. Springfield's literal translations of various books of the Bible, which have very extensive footnotes showing that the Peshitta is the older version. i.e. The Greek was translated from the Peshitta.
I will ask Mr. Springfiel if he wants to contest this issue with you; because he has done a series of literal translations of the Peshitta; and he is of the firm opinion that the Peshitta predates the Greek versions, and has given a very large number of reasons for believing this.
I would love to see a bibliography of his work (and recommendations) as it would be interesting to understand his line of reasoning.
If you join "the Bible Scholars Forum", SEE :
you will find a number of posts made by "Jeremy" wherein he debates with those who believe the Greek is more ancient than the Peshitta.- Jeremy is Jewish by the way.
As for his translation work, which is not entirely posted there, if he gives me permission, I can send you copies of these books, which I proofread, complete with footnotes. - BUT I would need an email address to send them to; which you could PM me if you joined the "Bible Scholars Forum". The following are their filenames.
1) Aramaic Translation 1st John
2) Aramaic Translation 1st Peter
3) Aramaic Translation 1st Thess
4) Aramaic Translation 1st Timothy
5) Aramaic Translation 2nd Thess
6) Aramaic Translation 2nd Timothy
7) Aramaic Translation Acts
8) Aramaic Translation Colossians
9) Aramaic Translation Ephesians
10) Aramaic Translation Galatians
11) Aramaic Translation Hebrews
12) Aramaic Translation James
13) Aramaic Translation Philemon
14) Aramaic Translation Philippians
15) Aramaic Translation Titus
16) Aramaic Translation Romans
Those are the ones that I proofread; but he sent me a number of others that I have not had time to deal with.
I pointed all this out to Jeremy Chance Springfield, (an expert translator of the ancient Biblical scripts), and he checked both thr Aramaic and the Greek
Jeremy Chance Springfield looks like just the kind of person I would trust on matters of scholarly import. [;)]
So maybe he was just making a goofy face one day. I shouldn't hold that against him. What are his credentials?
