Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 10:03 AM

Scott Pixler:
I will not buy anymore digital books, that is for sure! If I can get them free from google books or gutenburg,org, I will. Those will truly be "mine" in the old fashioned sense of the word. I apologize to Logos and all of her employees for any implication of wrongdoing that I may have made. I know this is not your fault. Even though you all are legally/technically correct, I still think that at the root of it all, the way these resources are sold digitally is not fair to me, the end user. It is really more like I am leasing them for a short while.

It requires a new mindset, I admit, but there are many benefits to the digital model.  Printed books can be lost in many ways, and you'll always have to pay to replace them.   Just because you own a commentary set in paper doesn't guarantee access for life: books can be lost in fire and floods, damaged by poor handling, and can be stolen or lost.  In those cases, you'll have to buy the book again.  Having paid for it once doesn't give you a right to a fresh copy.  

None of these hazards applies to Logos resources which can be re-downloaded at any time.  There's even a recent example in this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/59432.aspx. Also, Logos resources can be willed to others.  But most of all, Logos resources are so much easier to use than the thousands of pounds of equivalent paper books.  Plus they have features that no paper book could ever have. Automated definitions, automatic commentary look-ups, quick access to highlighting and clippings,  reference searches,  linking between resources,  access on multiple devices, etc., etc.  You give up a lot to stick with only paper books.  For me, it's an easy decision.  (Especially after moving to a new house a few years ago)

 

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 10:13 AM

Scott Pixler:

David,

Again, I appreciate your reply... As for your analogy with a car, It is more like you laid it out only I want to drain the gas out of my old car's tank to use in my new car and someone is telling me that I cannot do that because it is no longer my gas! That is how it feels to me!

While this is true, but you cannot put diesel fuel into a high performance NASCAR car.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 10:19 AM

Scott Pixler:
I know I should read those ELUA pages when I am installing software, but I gave that up long ago because they were mostly incomprehensible anyway.

Agreed! Tongue Tied

Scott Pixler:
But with my new understanding of how this works, I am going to make some changes. I will not buy anymore digital books, that is for sure!

That is a decision you will have to make for yourself… but as for me, I have gone the other way. I understand the limitations of my "purchase," but I think the benefits outweigh the weaknesses. If your house gets flooded or burns down, your paper books are gone… but you can re-download your entire Logos library to your new iPad and Computer. Additionally, the ability to perform a search and serendipitously discover gems from your books in Logos is amazing. You can't do that with paper books. Wink

Scott Pixler:
I had about half of the printed volumes which I gave away to students thinking that I would never need them again... I am a generous person and do not begrudge Logos employees their wages or desire to take food out of their mouths!

I continue to give away my paper copies as I gain digital copies. Good for you! As for my slightly-snarky comment about feeding Logos employees… I think it is helpful to remember that when we purchase a Logos resource, we are supporting the men and women who work there. If I didn't feel that their product was worth the extra expense, I would purchase elsewhere. I believe, however, that the Logos system is the best computer library application on the market, and I am glad to support them (when I can) through purchases. I hope to upgrade to a new base package at Christmas time. But only IF Santa is good to me. Smile

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Posts 1053
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 10:46 AM

Scott Pixler:

Thanks to Todd, Alabama24, and many others for your patient responses to my complaint. I am a pastor, not a lawyer. I know I should read those ELUA pages when I am installing software, but I gave that up long ago because they were mostly incomprehensible anyway. I am sure you are all correct that legally I do not own Expositor's Bible Commentary as I thought I did. Sadly, when I purchased the digital version I had about half of the printed volumes which I gave away to students thinking that I would never need them again... I am a generous person and do not begrudge Logos employees their wages or desire to take food out of their mouths!

Sigh. This is the fundamental problem of the current ebook market, not only Logos has this problem. Any ebook platform has it.

One crucial element missing in the ebook market is standardisation, something like mp3/aac in the music industry. Yes there's epub but even for the ebook platforms that are using epub, the DRM is proprietary and say if I buy a book from iBook store I can't read it in Kindle. I heard there's software to remove the DRM from the epub so that it can be universally read, but that's violating the EULA, and I don't know if it's illegal.

And when it comes to christian libraries, one more problem arouse. Christian ebooks are unlike any other ebook when it is presenting in a software like Logos or any of its competitors. The ebooks all have one common reference, the Bible (which is versified), this make ebook software like Logos or any of its competitors so unique. E.g. I am a physicist and I just can't find similar software working for Physics ebooks, not to mention most good physics text don't have a ebook format yet.

And then there's many other features building into the Logos ebooks, e.g. the original language, the cross references, the ToC, footnotes, etc.

This make it extra difficult to standardise the format.

I don't know much in detail how hard it would be to standardise the ebooks from Logos and its competitors. From my point of view, it is possible but very difficult. And it might in fact be much more difficult than I can imagine making it virtually impossible. (standardisation also means restriction. of course a certain standard can evolve, but much more slowly, and that will slow down the development of the software).

And I believe that practically it won't happen, just because those platforms are already well establish, very difficult for them to change.

Scott Pixler:

But with my new understanding of how this works, I am going to make some changes. I will not buy anymore digital books, that is for sure! If I can get them free from google books or gutenburg,org, I will. Those will truly be "mine" in the old fashioned sense of the word. I apologize to Logos and all of her employees for any implication of wrongdoing that I may have made. I know this is not your fault. Even though you all are legally/technically correct, I still think that at the root of it all, the way these resources are sold digitally is not fair to me, the end user. It is really more like I am leasing them for a short while... I can't change the rules of digital publishing and distribution, but I can refuse to participate in the game. I will look for free e-books and buy myself used printed books instead.

 

But I think own it or not is not that important. I believe what's more important is how convenient it is to use it, to retrieve it. And a side benefits is sometimes it is cheaper to get them digitally.

I just don't want to explain too much in detail how much more convenient to use it in a software like Logos than a real book or pdf. I only want to convince that it is not less inconvenient, at least comparing to the pdf you mention (I assume from Google/gutenburg.org means pdf? or ePub?).

There's only two possibilities that you have to buy those ebooks again: either that platform dies, or you switch to other platform (some of Logos' competitors). For the latter case, to use the digital books you already paid in Logos, you simply open it in Logos! You still "owned" it. Yes it is inconvenient but no less than opening a real book or using pdf/ePub. You just open that in another "place".

And for the first case, that Logos dies. It's always possible for a company to die, although very unlikely for something like Logos. Just don't screw up often like this time. they usually do a great job (both on the product itself and marketing).

What happened then if it died? You can still read those ebooks, in two ways at least:

1) keep an old computer with an old OS that the Logos you owned supports. Let's hypothetically say it is a Windows 8 with Logos 5. Just keep that computer, never sold it. And if that computer dies, install Windows 8 on some new hardwares. It should still works. Again, it is inconvenient to keep one computer system to run Logos only, but not as inconvenient as keeping some real books, may be just a bit more inconvenient comparing to pdf/ePub.

2) Turn all the Logos ebooks into pdf. Caution: I don't know about the legal part / EULA here, but other than that it should works. Logos has a print function and you can "print to pdf" for the whole book. Yes, it is very slow to do this. But this works. I tried to do it on some interlinear Bible in the past so that I can read them on the iPad (interlinear was not working on the iPad before). As it now becomes a pdf, it works as convenient as any pdf you've got.

So rationally I don't think there's really any point stop buy digital in Logos. May be I miss something.

But may be emotionally you don't like "the rules of digital publishing and distribution". I'd say just get over it. The world is not perfect and often fragmented. If some day there's someone do something like Steve Jobs did on the Music industry about "the rule of digital publishing and distribution, of Music" by iTunes, then might be this will change. (caveat: the music industry was in the crisis facing privacy. So the timing and opportunity is also very important. I don't see a crisis appears in the christian ebooks market very soon. No?)

To me, emotionally it feels so great to buy those books legally at about one tenth of the original price, through base packages and (at a lesser discount) other bundled libraries. I just won't get them financially in the near future otherwise.

Posts 2040
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 10:55 AM

I have a fireproof modern safe. Plus an old safe. They can contain a fraction of my print books&Bibles.
I can't live without print books. But with a few exceptions if Logos issues my books I gather my books in the software.

Loosing my laptop would be a disaster - not because of the files and software (which are backed up in the Logos cloud, on an external HDD and a USB-memory) but because of the hardware.

I don't have internet at home and the school closes early. If some of my notes are not immediately backed up that's not a problem, I could afford loosing some notes.

There is a balance between buying only the books that are really useful and good, the time it takes to choose them and placing orders on Logos Abebooks and Amazon, writing reviews, tagging, reading, and possibly upgrading (getting both what You need and what You don't want to support).

As with most things, You ultimately have to think of efficiency: do You really want to dig that deep in research and Your wallet, how do You want to divide Your time ...

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 12:18 PM

Scott Pixler:
But with my new understanding of how this works, I am going to make some changes.

Now wanting to be sarcastic or to demean you position, but have you considered how drastic this action becomes if carried to its logical conclusion? will you also forgo word processors, database software, all graphic applications, note taking software, etc.? When you purchase any of them, you are only getting a license to use them. Ownership remains with the vendor. In other words, to be consistent with the position stated in your post, you must for all practical purposes abandon computer software completely.

Posts 452
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 12:49 PM

Scott Pixler:

David,

Again, I appreciate your reply... As for your analogy with a car, It is more like you laid it out only I want to drain the gas out of my old car's tank to use in my new car and someone is telling me that I cannot do that because it is no longer my gas! That is how it feels to me!

Scott, I think the best analogy here is with physical books. If I buy a hardcover copy of a book, a portion of that money goes toward the intellectual property side of things (paying the author, editors, publicists, illustrators, and all that jazz) and a portion goes toward distribution (printing, shipping, inventory, etc.). Even still, my money has only bought me one physical copy of the book. If it gets stolen, burned up, or lost, you are not entitled to buy another copy at a discounted rate that only covers distribution costs. You have to pay for the intellectual property all over again.

With digital books, you're actually in better shape, generally speaking. My Logos resources aren't limited to one physical copy, and if my computer dies or is stolen I can easily put all of my Logos resources on another one. The limitation here is that I'm bound to the Logos software, I don't automatically own the same books in Accordance or Bibleworks or as paper copies.

This was a big reason for me to choose the Logos ecosystem of competitors. It's a strong company that has been in business for a long time, it has a large customer base, and it's cross-platform. I'm confident that my investment is safe, even if I switch operating systems. I feel the same way about buying Kindle books from Amazon. Zondervan's software, on the other hand, had no such advantage.

Posts 6
Scott Pixler | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 12:55 PM

To Todd, Tom, Alabama24, Unix, Jack and Kolen:

Thanks to all of you for your replies. There is a lot of wisdom shared there. I am surprised that so many of you even care about my post. I don't want to belabor this any longer. I have experienced the pains, the pleasures, and the benefits of both e-books and printed books. I have thousands of both. I did not know that I can will my Logos books to my descendants. Thank you for that info. That is something that is important to me about my books: that my kids can have them one day and treasure them as I have. I have some very old print books that have been handed down to me... I love 'em. 

For those of you who think e-books are better because they don't burn, I have a product for you that you may already own. It is called homeowners insurance. My mortgage holder requires me to have it and for a small charge it covers my library also. That one is a wash.

To Jack, your point about application software is not convincing. I think it is comparing apples to oranges. There are two viable options for using books. For using computer applications there is only one option, and it is much more clear to me and always has been that I don't own it, but I am only a "user". If I choose to not buy any more e-books, I will continue to use computer applications with a clear conscience! Deciding to forsake the one in no way compels me to forsake the other.

Thanks again to all of you. I wish you all the best and pray God's blessing on you!

Scott

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:02 PM

Well, I'm enjoying the best of both worlds. A LARGE fully licensed, internet-free Bible software (Libronix) and the new world of used books.

Both consume my attention.

I will say the down-side to the used book world is trying to find 'one last volume' in a commentary. No amount of searching among Amazon, Abe Books, etc have located that little puppy.

Better for a large electronic book publisher to 'do it once' for everyone (not talking about the pdf world).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9
Leonard T. Stitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:28 PM

Hi Bob - Still disappointed in the fact that those who visit the upgrade page have no idea of what you outlined in your post.

You can type "Logos 5 upgrade" or Logos 5 crossgrade" on the main search engine at Logos and find nothing about what you wrote. No link to your post.

The distinct impression when you look at the upgrade page is that these are the only options there are and they are expensive (I currently own the Platinum Edition).

Why not put something on the upgrade page about Logos' plan make the free software engine and minimal crossgrade option? That way your customers can make a fully informed choice.

The lack of clarity (and it is 10 days since you posted your information) is still going on, and I do find it offensive and even deceptive.

Len

Posts 397
T Gerold Castle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 1:53 PM

Offensive? Really? REALLY? I.JUST.CAN'T.

In HIS Eternal Service,
Tom Castle
**If we will do God's work, in God's way, at God's time, with God's power, we shall have God's blessings!!**

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 2:01 PM

Scott Pixler:
To Jack, your point about application software is not convincing. I think it is comparing apples to oranges.

You puzzle me. Logos doing what every other software vendor does in regard to licensing is not germane to this discussion? Since your mind seems closed on this subject, I will refrain from responding to any further posts.

Posts 42
Naveen Balakrishnan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 2:06 PM

Isn't it time to display Christian charity (old KJV word for agape) one towards the other even though there is disagreement between one and the other?  Speak the truth in love but rather choose to be defrauded than to defraud (goes on both ends).  Such smattering among Christian brethren speaks of a grevious witness to Christ Himself.  I pray choose to go separate ways if that is the intention.  But there is no need to besmirch one's character or attitude based on perception.  Whether Logos has done right or not is immaterial but our attitude in response to this neglect (whether intentional or unintentional) nevertheless displays what we speak of Christ by our words and actions.  It is time to put this thing behind us brethren.  Walk in love one towards the other afterall we have been commanded by our LORD Jesus in Matthew 5:44, "...love ye your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you."

 

In Christ Alone and for His Glory

Naveen

2 Timothy 2:19

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 2:07 PM

Scott Pixler:
I have experienced the pains, the pleasures, and the benefits of both e-books and printed books. I have thousands of both. I did not know that I can will my Logos books to my descendants. Thank you for that info. That is something that is important to me about my books: that my kids can have them one day and treasure them as I have. I have some very old print books that have been handed down to me... I love 'em. 

I noticed that you haven't yet mentioned the most important aspect of e-books (to me at least) -- the added functionality.  If that's not important to you, then I truly agree, stick to paper.  But for me, using my books now in the most efficient and productive way is the top priority.  Who knows if my kids will even care about the books I have?

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Leonard T. Stitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 2:22 PM

Actually I am using the word Bob Pritchett used to sum up his original posting that started this thread:

"I'm so sorry we didn't make all of this clearer right from the start, and I hope you won't be offended by our "paying the bills" focus on selling the revenue-generating upgrade bundles for just a short while before we offer the low-cost and free alternatives."

The fact that after 10 days since Bob's post, you still cannot easily find information about the software engine or minimum crossgrade option. I wonder how many are "paying the bills" for Logos without knowing that a cheaper, or even free, option is going to be available to them at some indefinite time in the future. If Bob is sorry that Logos didn't make the software engine upgrade and minimum crossgrade options clear from the start - why not do so now to everyone who visits the upgrade page? Still not there....

Bob expressed the hope I wouldn't be offended, and I wanted to express that his hope was not fulfilled in my case.

Posts 86
Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 5:06 PM

Whether you agree with Mr, Stitt's position or not, he does have a point.  I have spent a lot of time  in the forums in order to find updates about the crossgrade.  The only place it has been posted is the forums and not always on the same forum.  I haven't found anything on Logos' website about the coming of the crossgrade.  Even though communication was identified as a major issue with this release, it has not been rectified.  Up until now, I haven't had an issue with the way Logos conducts business. I just hope this isn't the start of a change in the way Logos does business.

Posts 42
Naveen Balakrishnan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 6:16 PM

It is evident that Logos did mess up and they have in humility acknowledged that very reality.  Are we pushing the envelope here because we are trying to make ourselves look good in the sight of others?  Is this attitude that we are displaying in any way bring glory to God?  Are we not commanded to put the interests of others above our very own (cf. Philippians 2:1-4)?  Are people not allowed to mess up?  Do you mess up?  Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (1 Corinthians 10:12).  It is time to let this go gentlemen.  It breaks my heart that we are bearing an unChristlike attitude one towards the other.  How much this must grieve the heart of the Father.

 

in Christ Alone and for His Glory

Naveen 

John 8:7

Posts 42
Naveen Balakrishnan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 6:28 PM

For those of you who are wondering, I am using Logos 4 Platinum.  Would I have preferred to have Logos 5 with the minimal crossgrade including the features and datasets or the Logos 5 free engine?  Absolutely.  Logos 4 has been a phenomenonal program without a doubt.  It has significantly cut down my sermon preparation time from 30+ hours down to 10-15 hour range.  Being able to utilize resources so readily at one point (windows on multiple panes on the same page) has been an incredible reality.  It has really enabled me to a better student of His Word afterall He has commanded us "Study to shew thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed but rightly dividing the word of truth." in 2 Timothy 2:15 (of course this is AWANA's theme verse).  I am grateful to Bob and his team at Logos for helping me to be diligent in my study of what is the MOST IMPORTANT Book of all time.  It is only this that God has commanded to preach (cf. 2 Timothy 4:2), and to teach (Matthew 28:20) and to hide in one's heart (Colossians 3:16; Psalm 119:9-11; Deuteronomy 6:6).  What has been an incredible blessing to many of us (if not all of us) why are suddenly now cursing the very ones who enabled to put in our hands a tool for our stewardship of His Word?  Just pondering.

 

In Christ Alone and for His Glory

Naveen

2 Timothy 2:2

 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 6:35 PM

Thanks Naveen for your thoughtful posts. Smile

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Posts 86
Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 7:13 PM

Naveen - Whether I upgrade or not is yet to be seen.  Regardless of whether I upgrade, I have benefited from Logos and will continue to use it for my study.  I appreciate Bob's comments in the forum, but it has not been reflected on any official site.  To do this would take about 15 minutes, but it would make their promise of a crossgrade visible to those who have not spent the time searching the forums.  The mistakes that were admitted to in the lack of communication persist.  Is it an unChristlike attitude to comment on that?    I have not questioned Bob or anyone else at Logos' faith or motives.  I do question their business decisions.  Questioning a business decision is not unChristlike.  It is not with hostility that I ask the questions I have asked.  I have in no way cursed Logos as you say.  I hope that your exegesis of the Bible is not taken to the same level as your  exegesis of my comments...  :)

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