Logos 5 is out? They never finished Logos 4 yet!

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This post has 176 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 1:19 AM

Rene Atchley:
The "free engine" without data sets is what?

An engine which provides you with all of the functionality for which you have paid (equating to the functionality available to you in L4). You may find that there is additional functionality, but you will need to await the release of the L5 engine to confirm this.

Rene Atchley:
Indeed I could be wrong as usual.

I fully understand that feeling Big Smile.

My concern, I guess, is that you have questioned the morality and integrity of Logos on the basis of your incorrect assumptions. I expect, therefore, you shall wish to correct this. Should you, on reflection, decide to edit your above erroneous statement, I will then happily edit my response to remove any redundant quotations.

Blessings

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 2:46 AM

Rene I feel that you need to temper your communications.

Queries on point of fact...

Rene Atchley:

"free" engine that only works with all the extras built on top of it [...]  

which are unconfirmed/unclarified should not be used to then jump to a completely unsubstantiated moral conclusion...

Rene Atchley:

This seems at least deceptive to me 

where you impugn people.

As someone else has already pointed out the forthcoming free engine upgrade will provide the bulk of functionality of Logos 4. Of course there is always the option that you stay with Logos 4 (if that is what you have). Just because Logos releases version 5 the previous versions don't automatically stop working — it is the same as with any other software package.

 

Rene Atchley:

[...] who holds a monopoly in the market.  

Are you sure this is the case, the dictionary definition of 'monopoly' does not agree with you. There are a number of competitors to Logos, some quite healthy, aggressive even, in their business vis-a-vis Logos.

 

I am not pointing all this this out with the purpose of knocking you down, mainly to ask that if you have a specific query then ask it honestly — there are many fellow users here in the forums who have lived out their commitment to helping others; if you have a specific complaint then speak it out (in humility) — I've never seen any Logos staff abuse customers having valid concerns/complaints.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 309
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 3:13 AM

To me the problem is that Logos says updates will be free.  When they mean that the basic engine is free.  Their actual software is not free it costs money to use the updated Logos 5, calling it datasets still sounds like software to the average user, I understand that this costs money and it should, no one should expect limitless software upgrades for life.  But it feels like that is what Logos promiseswhen they say that the software will always be free.  There is information in the fine print that the typical customer does not see.  If they could be more clear on the front sideabout the futurecosts of upgrades much of these problems would be gone.  IMHO

I don't imagine anyone is surprised when it costs money to buy the new Bibleworks 9 because they are upfront about the cost to upgrade the software.  Of course I may be wrong, that's just what it seems like to me. 

They also are not helping themselves out by holding the free engine back for months from their current customers. Makes us feel like we have to pay to be treated like everyone else, it has certainly caused me to second guess any future purchases with them.  Just my opinion again, its their company they can do what they want.  I'm still happy with Logos 4 for now. 

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 3:26 AM

John Graves:
To me the problem is that Logos says updates will be free.

Hi John,

I agree that both communication and terminology is a contributing factor to some of the confusion and disgruntlement evident on the forums. I appreciate that the distinction between an update and an upgrade (the first we receive at no cost, the second must be purchased) is not necessarily immediately and obviously apparent. 

In Logos' defence, it seems that they consistently differentiate between the two. However, it is apparent from the forums that this message is not always understood. Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion is that communication must continue to improve.

John Graves:
They also are not helping themselves out by holding the free engine back for months from their current customers. Makes us feel like we have to pay to be treated like everyone else, it has certainly caused me to second guess any future purchases with them.  Just my opinion again, its their company they can do what they want. 

I do appreciate your position and, however one looks at it, priority is being given to those who are able to pay to upgrade or crossgrade. I appreciate the frustration this must cause, but you are quite correct that it is, ultimately, Logos' decision and it does appear wise to try to manage demand (from the perspective of server capacity). Logos have been accused of holding back the free engine in order to maximise sales during the initial release period. I do not recall Logos presenting this as a rationale for delaying the availability of the free engine. However, even if this is the case, it makes sense that they should wish to maximise profit and it is their right to do so. 

John Graves:
I'm still happy with Logos 4 for now. 

This, I think, is a key point which has been stated and restated. L4 remains supported and functional. L4 will remain functional as long as one has a compatible OS (or virtual box) to run it.

 

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 3:26 AM

Duplicate post

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 3:45 AM

John Graves:

To me the problem is ...

I would agree with you regarding the confusion at the moment with Logos 5 and how it has brought into focus Logos' position regarding the software platform and upgrades.

Personally... I think that they should change their position of saying software upgrades are free. In the past the 'platform' (like most Bible software) started as an electronic means to read books — the books were the primary value. Then, because it was possible, and logical, the application platform started incorporating more and more, and more, analysis functionality. At some early stage — I don't know when, I came onboard with Logos 4 — Logos said the software would always be free, they would get revenue from books. When the software was simple that would have seemed sensible — it's no longer simple. In one sense the analysis tools are overtaking books in value, of course the reality is that both are important. The tools enable users to more effectively mine the 'precious metals' in the books — it's like using a huge digger vs. a shovel & wheelbarrow.

It is definitely a fact that the free engine upgrade is... free, and that it allows reading & using the resource library that users have. However... as the Logos platform gets more sophisticated (and desirable) people are comparing their wheelbarrows to the shiny and powerful digger and, obviously, wanting the digger.

May I ask in your specific situation you haven't availed yourself of the L5 cross-grade?

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 309
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 4:56 AM

Patrick S.:
May I ask in your specific situation you haven't availed yourself of the L5 cross-grade?

 

I have not gotten the gross-grade.  For me its 230 for silver or 135 for the minimal cross-grade.  I will probably end up doing the silver upgrade eventually.  Not sure.  I am just a little worried about the future with Logos.  I jumped on the Logos 4 train as soon as it came out because of the promise of things such as handouts and according to the sales person I spoke with a fully functional very soon equal mac program.  Neither of these came about.  I ended up going back to the PC world after a few months of fighting the Mac version and Handouts went away.  I am not bitter I know that sometimes companies over promise on their product.  So now I will wait and see if the product (L5 crossgrade) is equal to the hype that is being put out.  The same reason I will not upgrade to windows 8 for a while. 

I have actually gone back to buying mostly paper commentaries when it comes to expensive sets such as NICOT/Word/etc.  Still love Logos and still reccomend it but it is what it is. 

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 4:58 AM

Andy Evans:

Rene Atchley:
The "free engine" without data sets is what?

An engine which provides you with all of the functionality for which you have paid (equating to the functionality available to you in L4). You may find that there is additional functionality, but you will need to await the release of the L5 engine to confirm this.

Rene Atchley:
Indeed I could be wrong as usual.

I fully understand that feeling Big Smile.

My concern, I guess, is that you have questioned the morality and integrity of Logos on the basis of your incorrect assumptions. I expect, therefore, you shall wish to correct this. Should you, on reflection, decide to edit your above erroneous statement, I will then happily edit my response to remove any redundant quotations.

Blessings

Lets for a moment take this post as another example of how debates on this site goes.  A company produces a premium product and charges prices that reflect that market position and level of support.  They offer a sample (similar to samples in a food court trying to get you to purchase a meal) which has essentially neutered the product in anticipation of trying to sell upgrade packages with more or full dataset capability.  This is pointed out as a typical business practice that is, in fact, deception to the extent that it is claimed that such a free upgrade is the same as a purchased product.  Then we commence arguing over the morality of a business that sells multiple product streams to various "religious" market niches with as much advertising gusto as possible.  I would argue that morality and Christianity and Christians and faith has nothing to do with the profit making at Logos...its all about the cash.  If the "morality and integrity" of Logos can't be question then I suggest their marketing dept. should get bonuses for their performance this year. 

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 5:22 AM

Rene Atchley:
[It] is, in fact, deception to the extent that it is claimed that such a free upgrade is the same as a purchased product.

Herein, I fear, resides the problem. Who, other than yourself, has made this claim? 

It seems to me that, at best, you are parodying Logos' position and then critiquing this same mythical position for some purpose that I do not fully understand. I have reviewed your most recent posts and am confident that you are not ignorant with regards to Logos' strategy and intentions in rolling out L5. I see little purpose, therefore, in offering further clarification.

Sincerely, if there is a problem either I or others can assist with, we will happily do so. Should you require assistance in using Logos Bible Software, there are many people here, as you are well aware, who will happily provide advice and support.

Blessings

 

 

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 5:23 AM

 

John Graves:

To me the problem is that Logos says updates will be free.  When they mean that the basic engine is free.  Their actual software is not free it costs money to use the updated Logos 5, calling it datasets still sounds like software to the average user, I understand that this costs money and it should, no one should expect limitless software upgrades for life.  But it feels like that is what Logos promiseswhen they say that the software will always be free.  There is information in the fine print that the typical customer does not see.  If they could be more clear on the front sideabout the futurecosts of upgrades much of these problems would be gone.  IMHO

I don't imagine anyone is surprised when it costs money to buy the new Bibleworks 9 because they are upfront about the cost to upgrade the software.  Of course I may be wrong, that's just what it seems like to me. 

They also are not helping themselves out by holding the free engine back for months from their current customers. Makes us feel like we have to pay to be treated like everyone else, it has certainly caused me to second guess any future purchases with them.  Just my opinion again, its their company they can do what they want.  I'm still happy with Logos 4 for now. 

 

In the past, there was a clear distinction between program and resources. The promise was made that you were purchasing resources, the reader program was always supposed to be free.

The changes being made to the resources themselves now are blurring that distinction. I believe they made a deliberate choice to go that direction.

To those who still believe something was wrong on my end regarding licensing and syncing, there is not. Some just cannot accept what i am saying as truth. Yet truth it is. I have already been on the phone enough. nelson titles, baker titles, church fathers, discussed on the phone. Was told that the package upgrade was already heavily discounted so it was not possible to give me any credit for having already purchasing them.

 

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 5:28 AM

John:

To those who still believe something was wrong on my end regarding licensing and syncing, there is not. Some just cannot accept what i am saying as truth. Yet truth it is. I have already been on the phone enough. nelson titles, baker titles, church fathers, discussed on the phone. Was told that the package upgrade was already heavily discounted so it was not possible to give me any credit for having already purchasing them.

Hi John,

Apologies, I am not able to look for your original thread at the moment. If you check back there, you will find that Bradley (an employee of Logos) directly addresses and responds to your concerns. Bradley has confirmed that purchases from third parties are credited where Logos are aware of such purposes. He provides you with the necessary steps to rectify your concerns.

Blessings

 

Posts 309
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 5:32 AM

John Graves:
gross-grade

Meant Cross-Grade

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 5:32 AM

I'm trying to remember, wasn't it until Nelson came out with the free download of the demo version of Logos 3, that you could not even get the basic L3 engine until you bought some resources?

As well, didn't any functionality above the basic engine of L3 always required a purchase to gain additional features, or at least a purchase of a package to gain them? 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 1956
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 5:40 AM

The point that is probably debatable, is that at least from a Mac point of view, the vast majority (or some would argue the entirety) of version 4 was playing catch up and dealing with associated bugs. The last L4 release for Mac had nearly 100 bug fixes. Credit to the release, it addressed a lot of longstanding issues. That being said, within several weeks L5 came along. When I first heard of L5, I was nervous that it was a step backwards to L4 type of problems, but learned that it was not. Even though L5 looks to build forward on L4, I can't say that I ever felt L4 felt finished from a maturity point of view.

Was this deceptive? As frustrated as I have been at times, no. It is a reflection of the "release early, release often" (RERO) software strategy of Logos.  Look at the release notes.  We are talking many, many releases in three years. Some full version releases resulted in a service release within 24 hours!  Some companies do this.  We are in effect getting features early and get to help sort out the problems even in full release software.

Also, I think some would agree that Logos has taken all this time to really build the capacity to be a Mac developer as this does not come over night.  Maybe we are finally there.  Maybe we aren't.  L5 looks promising, but time will tell.

My point to make would be if you are a customer of a company that uses RERO, then version numbers really don't make as much of a difference as they do under other software development strategies.  I also think the lines between beta, RC and gold release are a bit more blurred as well.  Obviously some of this is subjective and each approach has its strengths/weaknesses, but every developer has a strategy of how they handle this and you have to be able to live with it.

It goes without saying that one thing that compounded this was the restructuring of the packages and the additional datasets.  Plenty has been said on that, but in effect this is a combination of managing user expectations and the psychology associated with each package name.  Marketing is the dog that has been kicked around on this, but how you manage the growth of resources and present those to users is also a bigger philosophical question product wise.

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 6:06 AM

John Graves:

Patrick S.:
May I ask in your specific situation you haven't availed yourself of the L5 cross-grade?

I have not gotten the cross-grade.  For me its 230 for silver or 135 for the minimal cross-grade.  I will probably end up doing the silver upgrade eventually.  

If the Silver upgrade is $230 for you then you must already have the majority of the titles in the (new) Silver, my upgrade cost to the new Silver was much more.

My point though is that in your case going for the minimum cross-grade for $135 is a good choice, I assume you have seen this link:

http://www.logos.com/product/28376/logos-5-minimal-crossgrade

the minimal cross-grade will get you into the DataSets up to the (new) Gold level and there are a number of new resources in it. If you plan to do both Silver and Minimal Cross-grade do the Silver first, the Minimal then drops to about $6.

On whether Logos 5 including the new DataSets is worth it — I would say yes. And I've been known to give Logos a bit of stick about the Mac version of Logos 4 in the past.

Ask them if you can try it and return within 30 days if you are not satisfied, you've got nothing to lose. Cheers.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 309
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 6:18 AM

Patrick S.:
On whether Logos 5 including the new DataSets is worth it — I would say yes. And I've been known to give Logos a bit of stick about the Mac version of Logos 4 in the past.

Thanks for your insight Patrick.  I have been reading the forums for reactions and they seem to be very positive toward Logos 5.  I really hope that it catches on and keeps Logos going for another 30 or 100 years, I have lot invested in this program/books.  I will probably ask for the upgrade for Christmas or try to talk my church into buying it for me. 

Blessings

 

Posts 550
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 7:03 AM

This has been a very interesting discussion. I like the fact that it has remained a calm and not a contentious discussion..

 I've owned Logos products for about 14 years. To put it concisely, I believe the line as to what is part of the "free engine" and is not  has been blurred over the years.

Several years ago I bought the Ultimate Bible Library by Nelson. The best buy ever IMHO. At the time that it came out ALL the functions (data sets) available in this package matched all the functions (data sets)  in a Logos package. I paid $19.95 for it. 

My first product was the MacArthur Bible Study Library from Nelson. Once again, all functions (data sets) were present in this as in any "official" Logos package at the time. I believe I paid $100.00 for it. The same goes for my Spurgeon Collection, Calvin Collection, Word Biblical Commentary Collection, J. Vernon Magee collection, etc, etc. These ALL contained the same data sets as any official Logos package AT THE TIME of purchase.

Having said this , one who had gotten used to this purchasing scenario would logically expect:

1. That if one bought a 3rd party product it would contain all data sets of an official Logos product. (Since when I bought these products they matched official Logos functionality and data sets)

2. One could save BIG money by purchasing 3 party Logos products. 

 

I realize Logos is sovereign and able to do whatever it wants, but I'm just trying to explain/understand why there is so much confusion and disappointment.  

 

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 7:14 AM

John:
the reader program was always supposed to be free.

 

The READER program IS free. You are objecting that they don't thrown in the new DATA sets that cost them thousands of dollars to develop for free.  When the FREE engine is released you will be able to READ all your previously purchase books and use ALL your previously purchased data sets and have the benefit of an improved interface and an engine that runs significantly faster. What are you crying about?

As for credit for books previously purchased you may be confused by the upgrade calculator not showing sets of books are "New to You" that you own some volumes of. I was confused by this at first as well. Let me assure you that you are getting credit for the books within that set you already own. You are only paying for the new volumes. I called, I posted to the forum and I emailed to triple check this for my upgrade and every resource I had concerns about was being properly credited and this includes resources I purchased from third parties as far back as L2.

One more thing, some individual books are new editions, you don't get credit for lets say a 2nd edition of a book if the new package contains the 3rd edition.  There has never been a promise by Logos to offer free upgrades to individual books when new editions come out.

Posts 356
Ralph Mauch | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 8:13 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

If you purchase directly from logos.com, then our servers know about your purchase and you will be credited for it. (See my previous post.)

If you purchased items at a Christian bookstore, then our servers may not have associated that purchase with your logos.com account. This would depend on a) your Libronix ID being associated with your logos.com account, and b) running Synchronize Licenses in LDLS3 to upload your licenses to our servers

This is an interesting thread, I've had Logos before 2.0, and after getting Libronix, all that was necessary was to sync to the sever whenever I bought an outside product, and it became as if it was a Logos product. I haven't used Libronix for a couple of months, but it still works (just checked), and all that I had back then I still have in Logos 5. I recently upgraded to Gold, only because the resources that were being added was a no brainer based on the price tag. What I did was to take what I did not have, and lookup the price of the indiviual sets, which made the upgrade price too good to pass up.

I'm glad to see that "Bible Word Study" is available in Logos 5, like it was in Libronix 3. I think that since Libronix 3, syncing is so much easier, we tend to forget what happened if we didn't do that step. I hope that John gets Logos to explain to him, so that he understands more clearly, or vise-versa so that they understand his problem. I've had some similar situations, but was able to work them out with Logos (some how lost my Calvin resources which were non Logos).

Blessings,

 

Posts 397
John | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 21 2012 9:21 AM

Andy Evans:

Hi John,

Apologies, I am not able to look for your original thread at the moment. If you check back there, you will find that Bradley (an employee of Logos) directly addresses and responds to your concerns. Bradley has confirmed that purchases from third parties are credited where Logos are aware of such purposes. He provides you with the necessary steps to rectify your concerns.

Blessings

 

Thanks for restating Bradleys offer. Now i will restate that I have ALREADY been in contact with Logos reps. Bradley is just asking me to do something that has already been done.

Thanks.

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