Biblical Languages Package

I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?

The OL package was great for those of us who were not part of the protestant "evangelical" movement within the united states because it didn't have all the (IMHO) junk (apologetics, theology, and counseling to name just three categories).

It appears to me that Logos is treating its non "protestant evangelical movement" customers as second class customers (AGAIN) by taking away the only package that fits our needs.

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BKMitchell

As, an owner of the OL package for Logos4 I also agree with and wonder why?:

I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?

The OL package was great for those of us who were not part of the protestant "evangelical" movement within the united states

I think just as there is a Verbum line of Logos' packages, and there is the normal protestant "evangelical" package line: there should also be an Oringal langauge line/branding of packages.

Ken McGuire

I have Original Languages for similar reasons. While the Minimal Crossgrade would generally serve my purposes (even if I am sure I will wish I had NA28 eventually as well as the Aland Synopsis) it is sad that the library that I have found useful is no longer generally marketed.

It seems obvious that American Evangelicalism is the major market with a strong reach into Roman Catholicism. While this makes more than a bit of marketing sense (take a look at religious bookstores), I hope that those of us outside those markets get to eat a bit more than scraps from the table...

Milford Charles Murray

I hope that those of us outside those markets get to eat a bit more than scraps from the table...

Very wonderfully graphic, Kenneth! *smile* Thank you for the smile I will have for the next hour or so!

Noel Fitzpatrick

Thanks for all the replies.

There was a discussion here about American Evangelical Protestants
being facilitated to a grater extent
than others. I am not sure if this is so. I have always thought
that Logos caters for all interested in the Bible, the word of God, whether from
an academic or a religious point of view.

Can I take this opportunity to wish
all my American friends a very happy Thanksgiving?

Matthew C Jones

As, an owner of the OL package for Logos4 I also agree with and wonder why?:

I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?

The OL package was great for those of us who were not part of the protestant "evangelical" movement within the united states

I wonder "Why?" too. Especially when the likely purchaser of the Original Language package does not want most of the scraps that fall from the table. It seems better to me to have a small sale than no sale at all. It is not as if the minimalists will buy a large package of resources they deem "useless" just to get the few tools they deem valuable. Maybe Logos will reconsider. PLEASE?

tom

Especially when the likely purchaser of the Original Language package does not want most of the scraps that fall from the table. It seems better to me to have a small sale than no sale at all. It is not as if the minimalists will buy a large package of resources they deem "useless" just to get the few tools they deem valuable.

[Y]

Peter Covert

I hope that those of us outside those markets get to eat a bit more than scraps from the table...

[Y]

Peter Covert

Especially when the likely purchaser of the Original Language package does not want most of the scraps that fall from the table. It seems better to me to have a small sale than no sale at all. It is not as if the minimalists will buy a large package of resources they deem "useless" just to get the few tools they deem valuable.

[Y][Y]

fgh

Admittedly, now that there are Catholic packages things look a bit differently for me personally, but I still think this is a bad decision:

If it hadn't been for OLL, I would never have bought Logos in the first place; I would have gone to the competitor (and you can look in my account to see how much that would have lost you!).
You're pushing away the Jewish market.
You're pushing away related secular markets: linguistics, Near Eastern studies, etc.
You're pushing away Christians that don't feel at home in either the American Evangelical or the Catholic camps.
You're pushing away people who simply want a Bible software for language related work, not for reading.

I'm more and more getting the impression that in non-financial matters Logos is a ministry. They know very well that most customers never buy anything but a base package, so if those base packages lean heavily in one direction, users are automatically going to slide over in that direction.

Isn't it a bit sad that a 'Bible alone' believing company won't let people actually study the Bible alone, without having a specific theology pushed down their throats?

fgh

Aland Synopsis

That's in even the lowest of the Verbum packages. You should at least check out what your upgrade price would be, especially if you don't own the ECF (which are also in the lowest package). Note:

You need to go to the product pages to see your discount.
You can get an extra 15% off with a coupon code.
They say you'll get 25% through a sales rep.
Take into consideration that your Crossgrade price should drop if you buy this first.

Actually, the top package Capstone is a bit of a Catholic-Jewish OLL on steroids. If one hasn't already bought almost everything in it at much higher prices (like I have [:'(]), it's absolutely amazing. It's got loads of heavy language stuff, including TDNT, BDAG, Liddell & Scott, the DSS Study Edition, and Philo, Josephus and the Pseudepigrapha in Greek. Plus the UBS Handbooks. Plus all (?) the Jewish stuff from Portfolio. Plus the PBI OT and NT Collections, the Second Temple Period Collection, the Gnostic & Apocryphal Studies Collection, a couple of JSNTS collections, and several others. Plus the Newman, Chesterton, Ratzinger and von Balthasar Collections. Plus Papal and Church documents. Plus lots of Patristic, Medieval and Reformation stuff. Plus plus plus. And all for pennies on the dollar. If I hadn't already payed close to $1,200 this year alone for resources that now turn out to be included for on average $2 a piece, I would have been dancing like those spirit-filled bananas for three weeks straight by now.

Luigi Sam

I'm more and more getting the impression that in non-financial matters Logos is a ministry. They know very well that most customers never buy anything but a base package, so if those base packages lean heavily in one direction, users are automatically going to slide over in that direction.

Isn't it a bit sad that a 'Bible alone' believing company won't let people actually study the Bible alone, without having a specific theology pushed down their throats?

It might also be a bit that way due to the public domain resources revamped for the logos platform being less costly to create per dollar - and a longer list is generated per package type due to this..

I didn't think about it from your point of view tho. for bible software I'd like language stuff + as many references materials (Bible focussed not novels) from multiple perspectives. the languages stuff isn't an option to me.. but I'd not choose the extremely 'hardcore boring looking ones like bdag...' but i do want the hardcore useful ones.

Ken McGuire

Aland Synopsis

That's in even the lowest of the Verbum packages. You should at least check out what your upgrade price would be, especially if you don't own the ECF (which are also in the lowest package). Note:

You need to go to the product pages to see your discount.

You can get an extra 15% off with a coupon code.

They say you'll get 25% through a sales rep.

Take into consideration that your Crossgrade price should drop if you buy this first.

I have looked at getting/adding one of the Catholic packages. Unfortunately the money isn't there for me now, but the Catholic packages have been more interesting to me for a while. But I am a weird Lutheran who was teaching a study of the Apostolic Fathers and was tired of going to a local college library to read ABD (AYBD now) and after comparing prices decided to save money by getting the computer edition. While that was on the way, I saw that a cheap E-bible edition at the local Christian Bookstore would integrate with the Anchor, as well as add some more English bibles for comparison purposes. After using these for a bit, I realized it could do more with more and got OLL.

I am not at all sure if I would have gotten into Logos with the present offerings, even as I marvel at the diversity of materials for the platform. What I have will do well for me for a while, I just wonder if the next "me" would pick Logos. I went back to the school I attended and saw a couple community computers in the Library with the competitor's product in the exegetical reference section. While I understand 1) how that competitor has traditionally been a bit more efficient at "hard-core" exegesis, and 2) Logos' license model, it saddens me that Logos was not more visible when there are so many books - including very high level, technical works, that are able to be tied together with it.

As a side note, it always gives me a chuckle when people seem to think the only theological options out there are Calvinism and Arminianism... There is so much more out there.

Bob Pritchett

I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?

There's no theological conspiracy here. Original Languages simply sold very few units, and it didn't fit the "each package is a super-set of the previous package" hierarchy. We felt it introduced more confusion than clarity in purchase process / comparison charts. (And I think we made this decision before we established the dynamic pricing engine.) As you've pointed out, we do have a new "Biblical Languages" package which we're offering via academic sales, which is where almost all Original Languages sales happened.

We may offer it via the web site in the future; I expect we may even have other specialized collections. But whatever they are, you can be sure we aren't pushing a particular theological position; we're just trying to meet the market needs.

George Somsel

I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?

The OL package was great for those of us who were not part of the protestant "evangelical" movement within the united states because it didn't have all the (IMHO) junk (apologetics, theology, and counseling to name just three categories).

It appears to me that Logos is treating its non "protestant evangelical movement" customers as second class customers (AGAIN) by taking away the only package that fits our needs.

I started buying resources a la carte, but eventually I got the OL package. I did branch out beyond that, but I think an OL package would be ideal for many. I didn't "upgrade" to one of the new packages because I didn't want all o the counselling, hermeneutics and ministerial resources included in most of them. I'm sure there are others who feel similarly. Perhaps we could have an interlinear-free zone too.

Matthew C Jones

You're pushing away the Jewish market.
You're pushing away related secular markets: linguistics, Near Eastern studies, etc.
You're pushing away Christians that don't feel at home in either the American Evangelical or the Catholic camps.
You're pushing away people who simply want a Bible software for language related work, not for reading.

I disagree with your conclusion. Just because some do not want certain resources should not require the abolition of such resources. I personally find the Hebrew language materials of little use because I am not adept at Hebrew (yet!) but I would never feel "pushed away" because Logos offers these resources to those who are skilled in Hebrew. The availability of some lectionaries does not put me off either. I know some Logos users can't stand the apologetics offerings.

The products list remind me of Milford's cornucopia picture; something in the mix should interest most users.

Ben

That's not a good counter-example, since Hebrew is not denominational. I happen to be in the boat described. I have never purchased a package because I don't want all the Protestant fluff. OL is the only package I ever considered. I have sometimes thought about jumping over to Accordance, as their packages include Judaic packages and ANE materials instead of counseling, church planting, etc. But I have too much invested in Logos now to do so. I just wanted to speak up and reaffirm the previous point. I also know other people in my boat who have made the choice for Accordance instead of Logos for just those reasons.

tom

I am wondering why this package is not being offered to the general public?

There's no theological conspiracy here. Original Languages simply sold very few units, and it didn't fit the "each package is a super-set of the previous package" hierarchy. We felt it introduced more confusion than clarity in purchase process / comparison charts. (And I think we made this decision before we established the dynamic pricing engine.) As you've pointed out, we do have a new "Biblical Languages" package which we're offering via academic sales, which is where almost all Original Languages sales happened.

We may offer it via the web site in the future; I expect we may even have other specialized collections. But whatever they are, you can be sure we aren't pushing a particular theological position; we're just trying to meet the market needs.

Bob,

Thanks for sharing this information.

I would like to share a personal story. I was talking with some people from the LGBT community. They shared with me that some of my language was offensive to them, and they shared why it was offensive. Did I know that I was being offensive? No. Did I want to be offensive? No. Was I being offensive? Yes.

I believe the same can be said with Logos' base packages. Do you intend to have a theological bias? No. Do you intend to package your product to make the most sells? Yes (and this is a good thing). But by doing this, you are pushing the theological position of the majority of your customers. Therefore, you do have a theological bias.

What I am saying about the old OL package and the new BL package is that they did not have the same theological bias, and thus why I purchase that package.

Several people on this thread stated that they would not have been a Logos customer if it wasn't for the OL package, and I consider myself one of them.

Therefore, removing the package from public sends a bad message to me - that I do not count.

You stated that OL was sold mainly through the academic program. I would also ask you to see who purchased the OL and why the ones who did not upgrade (like me). I have a funny feeling that we are a customer base that you would like to expand to include.

Bob, you stated (if I remember correctly) that you were surprised that people who had the OL also wanted the lectionaries. I believe that this is an indication of who has the old OL and why we have it (we do not want any of the other packages because of the theological bias.)

Because I had the OL, I have purchased other books from Logos. I think the same is true with other OL customers.

I believe the old OL and new BL package is a gateway for new Logos customers. Therefore, please offer the BL package to the public.

Ken McGuire

Very well put, Tom.

I get the feeling from Logos that the Original Languages library is designed for academic settings and that they cannot see the appeal of it to any outside it. Because they don't understand this appeal, they didn't really market it well and so it didn't sell. And so they don't sell it at all to the general public.

I recall many of the Libronix reviews listed on the Logos website by Lutheran publications recommended the Original Languages Library as an excellent deal for parish pastors. While I am not one, I found it an good deal as well. For some interesting background to the lectionary issue, take a look at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LogosForLutherans/message/384

Perhaps the wisest course of action is to let the dying product die, but as you said, the way they have done so suggests to us that we are not valued. But if Logos cares about expanding into markets of people who have found this offering to be valuable, Logos should listen to what we say and try to come up with an offering that would appeal to us.

To use a parish example - I have seen a place where the way we "fixed" a weak youth program was to let it die from lack of participation, which, while it hurt for a while, also inspired people to come out of the woodwork and come up with something MUCH better...

Alexander

I am often reminded that feelings and the truth not always align well. I'm in no way trying to downplay how you feel but Bob's statement indicates that the truth of why they are not currently offering it to the public. I am grateful everyone had a great experience and enjoyed OL, but, again, Bob's stated purpose is not to dismiss anyone. Ted, your real life experience with the LGTB community serves this point well. I have witnessed to members of that community. Did they think what I said was offensive? YES! But was it offensive? Only to those who were perishing. I did it with gentleness, love, and concern over their condition. Did they see it that way? Probably not but God did. I think the same thing is happening here. A lot is changing at Logos and it's easy to say they've neglected us for this or that reason. I think we should offer grace and share our opinions (which you have done - thank you for that!) but at the end of the day, live with the reality that this is no personal attack or attempt to shaft a group of people. I think that's the best part of being able to buy just the data sets and then individual works through a sales person - no "theological weight" (if you want to call it that) from a base package but plenty of good deals on what you want to read. Thank you for taking the time to read my response

tom

I recall many of the Libronix reviews listed on the Logos website by Lutheran publications recommended the Original Languages Library as an excellent deal for parish pastors.

The OL was also recommended to me in seminary if I was going to purchase a Logos base package. The reason, I would not use any of the other items (unless I went to gold, and then cost was the factor).