Books in other Software programs

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Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 5:00 AM

Michael Childs:

Luigi Sam:

WOW  The responses im getting are typical of the average yogi bear.

You are getting "Yogi Bear" answers because you are reasoning like "Boo Boo".

 

Not sure if thats supposed to be nasty... You should know better anyway.  You didn't even present any useful criticism (much less any reasons explaining / justifying your position) to start with.

 

EDIT: also you didn't even take to time to reply regarding my answers I have already given you. 

So why continue with one liners that do not benefit anyone except yourself (by trying to defend your pride regarding your ill put original post).

anyway oh well we all make mistakes so there's no need to snowball the matter. I hope you see my point.

Kind regards.

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 5:13 AM

Super Tramp:

Super Tramp:
Did you know that Logos prices are almost always different than that of other Bible software publishers?

Oh, I missed that point.

So then, what "price-fixing" is everyone harping about? If WordSearch, Accordance, and BibleWorks all charged the same price for a resource (they do not), then how is that different from a book publisher offering a "SRP" and seeing Amazon sell it higher or lower than B&N or AbeBooks?

This whole issue is "gimme somethin' for nothin' " 'coz I'm too cheap to pay for it and too lazy to write the software myself.

 

obviously you didn't check the price of BDAG.  WordSearch, BibleWorks, TheWord, Logos all price it exactly the same $150.  This was merely a side point anyway, I didn't mean for everyone to get all upset.

 

Super Tramp:
This whole issue is "gimme somethin' for nothin' " 'coz I'm too cheap to pay for it and too lazy to write the software myself.

meh. my bible software code is 10,000+ lines of code (from a stat counter not that it is the best counter) thus far and is mostly focussed on features not in mainstream bible software. so that criticism doesn't apply to me.

also I am happy to pay for stuff too. Im no theif either, I pay for my licenses to software and keep/enforce them as if I would be a thief if I didn't.   So this also mustent apply to me either.

Note my original point is not paying for book published electronic material twice, NOT enhancements.  If you took the time to read slower, and chewed the cud, then you will note I said:

1. Pay for published electronic books etc once.

2. pay a smaller fee from enhancements per bible software product that adds them.

3. however purchases of those books can freely read / navigate those materials.

that is it.

 

why are you so upset? take a breath. Im on your side!!!  The good side - reasoning about the right and fair way to solve a problem.

If I reply provocatively please take it less personally, and more about the subject.

kind regards to you, and the rest of you guys. Please...   Summative Nice replies to close anyone?

Posts 2776
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 5:55 AM

Tom Reynolds:
 David, 

This, second article, is clearer.  US Copyright law recognizes the copyright laws of other nations for items bought in other nations.  Thus the US courts MUST [by that law] enforce Thai copyright law.  

Re my comment on “extraditing him to Thailand”.  The question seems to be that law in Thailand is different than US law.  That statement is tied to my comment that he “violated the laws of Thailand” so that is where I thought that the fix was to ship him to Thailand for trial BUT 

My question was “So why are the US courts involved?” Now I know – we have obligations to enforce the copyright laws of other nations so that they will also enforce the copyright laws of the US. [[warning - if we tell them we are not going to enforce their laws they will not enforce ours]]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.   I agree with Super Tramp,  he was wrong.   IMHO if they sell it here then US law applies. It they sell it 'there' then the US courts MUST by international law enforce the laws of 'there'  [[and that is why our government needs to really be careful what they agree to do with international law - and this is simple compared to other items that ''international law'' is forcing us to do like cap and trade and other carbon taxes]]   [[if anything I said upset you know that that was not my intent]]

Posts 1133
Tom Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 6:09 AM

Super Tramp:

This is a case of an illegal product being imported into the USA. It is a case of whether or not a sovereign nation has the right to control what crosses it's borders. Back in the 1970's I witnessed US Customs confiscating vinyl records from people entering the USA from Taiwan. The records were bootleg and the artist never received any royalties from the sale. 

Just because China or Thailand create knock-offs of Nike shoes or Microsoft software (holograms & all) does not mean we should allow the importation of stolen goods. I side with Wiley on this one.

Super Tramp - please please please read the articles. There are NOT illegal products or knockoffs. These are books published by Wiley and sold in Thailand. They are 100% legal books legally bought by this man's relatives. The question is whether or not Wiley can then prohibit the owners of those legal books from shipping them to the US where they were resold to someone else. The same law will apply to you if you buy a book in an airport bookstore overseas and then return to the US and sell it at your garage sale. The same law will apply to you if you buy anything at Wallmart that was made in China, etc. It will be illegal for you to resell or gift or lend that item without the manufacturer's express permission.

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 6:40 AM

James William Roberts, Jr.:

I wonder if Logos would be interested in giving some kind of deal to quit using another program and give a HUGE discount on the books in the other program since you already own a "license" to use them.

 

The above is an Interesting thought.

 

--------------------

Regarding STEP

 I didn't mention it for similar reasons like you mentioned. It was abandoned by most for reasons other than copyright management of the individual books. (ie copyright issues of the STEP format (it was not free support), inability to solve various issues on the level of coverage of 'features' of the format - and separation of those from proprietary additions.  Or similar.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 7:03 AM

Luigi Sam:
Michael Childs:
Luigi Sam:

WOW  The responses im getting are typical of the average yogi bear.

You are getting "Yogi Bear" answers because you are reasoning like "Boo Boo".

Not sure if thats supposed to be nasty...

Yogi Bear was first introduced into the thread here:  Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Jan 10, 2013 6:01 PM 

Michael was responding to your Yogi comment.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 7:37 AM

Tom Reynolds:
uper Tramp - please please please read the articles. There are NOT illegal products or knockoffs.

I did and you missed the real issue in the lawsuit:

" When he discovered that his textbooks, produced by Wiley, were substantially cheaper to buy in Thailand than they were in Ithaca, N.Y., he rallied his Thai relatives to buy the books and ship them to him in the United States.

He then sold them on eBay, making upward of $1.2 million, according to court documents."

If you believe the defendant bought these textbooks strictly for personal use, you are naive. With the average Thai income hovering around $8000 annually Wiley priced their regionally licensed textbooks lower to make them affordable to impoverished students. (A bit like Logos offering an Academic Discount for seminary students.) If you require Wiley (or Logos) to offer textbooks at a globally fixed price you can bet it won't be the lower price of the two.

Under your theory of "first sale" the child porn from Denmark should have been allowed into the USA. Also, fruit containing the Mediterranean fruit fly larva should have been allowed into California. Governments all around the globe protect their economies daily by banning or taxing importation of products they deem detrimental. Japan taxed the import of USA made autos 100% of the sticker price (when I lived there.) Japan does not allow foreigners to import guns or ham radios. The USA says it is illegal to import foreign printed books that are underpriced. This is nothing new.

To really shake things up consider this: We do not own our Logos resources, nor our Accordance resources, our WordSearch resources or our BibleWorks resources. We don't own Microsoft Windows or Office that is installed on our computers.They are licensed for our use in accordance to the various EULA ("End User License Agreement")

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 7:53 AM

And to address your incorrect examples (since I did read them too):

Tom Reynolds:
The same law will apply to you if you buy a book in an airport bookstore overseas and then return to the US and sell it at your garage sale. The same law will apply to you if you buy anything at Wallmart that was made in China, etc. It will be illegal for you to resell or gift or lend that item without the manufacturer's express permission.

If I buy a bottle of liquor in the airport gift shop, it may be confiscated when I disembark from the plane in a dry county. Consider that WalMart has to pay import duties on some products the Federal Trade Commission levies them on. The "first sale"' doctrine applies to the locality of the sale. If you buy a Chinese made item at WalMart in the USA, you don't have to pay import duties again. If you take that item to Venezuela you may have to pay customs to get it in.

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Posts 2776
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 8:31 AM

Question: Did the publisher have a printing run for Thailand or having printed extra copies did they sell the extras that had not sold in the US to the poor students in Thailand rather then burn them?  Often manufacturers sell the extras at a cheep price because they get something for the scrap good.  Have heard that some of the clothing items that you see in the cheep stores are the overruns of the items sold in the expensive stores. The manufacturer (or an agent) removes the high price label and adds a cheep label.  If you know where to shop the only difference is the label. Or in the case of text books where they were sold.  The under the table importer stole millions from the publisher.  

Some drugs sold in Canada are sold there at a lower price so that the manufacturer can get something for the overruns on lots made mainly for the US market.  When the laws change and drugs to be sold in Canada are allowed back into the US the result will be that Canada will have to start paying the same super high price that we pay in the US.  

The car parts [to keep cars in the discussion] are being made for use in the US.  As soon as the other nations are given the right to tell us we can not resell our [whatever] that was sold in the US the people in the US will only buy items manufactured in the US.   [[If they want to import into the US then they don't want to make the rules too tight or they will kill the golden goose.]]

 

Posts 1538
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 9:17 AM

If all the bible software companies would just switch to the logos format...

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 10:03 AM

David Ames:
Question: Did the publisher have a printing run for Thailand or having printed extra copies did they sell the extras that had not sold in the US to the poor students in Thailand rather then burn them?

I have seen a lot of these type of  textbooks. They are specially printed for their specific foreign markets. They frequently lack graphics and are many times monochrome. I am also aware of the over-runs practice. In Korea you can buy Botany 500 suits very cheaply. In Vietnam they will sell you over-runs of Dillon Guitars. These are the actual product of the same quality but they have been re-branded or de-branded. 

The original post for this thread seeks to buy cheap resources from other Bible software companies and use them in Logos or to buy resources created by Logos and run them under inferior or cheapo programs. This is just a step away from pirating Logos.software.

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Posts 33
Stanton See | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 11:34 AM

Since I am the one who made the original post, I would like to make this clear.  I had purchased several different Bible software programs before I started to make Logos my main Bible software program.  What I was hoping was that I would be able to use Logos to access the books that I have in the other software without having to switch back and forth.  Also, I do not have a lot of money and cannot afford to buy books that I already have.  In addition, there are some books that I have on the other software packages that Logos does not have at this time.

Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 12:10 PM

Stanton:
In addition, there are some books that I have on the other software packages that Logos does not have at this time.

Wiki has =>  http://wiki.logos.com/Personal_Books with link => http://wiki.logos.com/User_Contributed_Personal_Books with links to many Logos user contributed personal books, which links to a number of public domain texts that do not have a Logos resource.

Keep Smiling Smile

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 12:11 PM

Stanton:
I do not have a lot of money and cannot afford to buy books that I already have.

Stanton:
 Can I use Logos 4 to access commentaries that I have on other Bible software programs, such as "Bible Explorer" and "PC Study Bible"?  If so, how do I go about it?

Stanton,

thank you that you put this thread back on track. Your question touches a legal grey area: private digital format conversion of legally owned resources. I understand that doing so might be legal in many jurisdictions, but potentially a violation of the EULA of the other program you take the resource from. Note that doing format conversions for yourself may be legal, but sharing the digital resource would (unless it's a public domain resource) be a clear breach of copyright. 

Also, depending on the circumstances, you may invest a considerable amount of effort and end up with a resource that's less quality than the Logos-supplied resources.    

That said: technically Logos is perfectly suited to do so: convert or export the resource from other software into a MS Word *.docx file (if there's no export feature: copy/paste), perhaps add some tagging/references - such as bible milestones - and build a Personal Book. In most cases, these work seamlessly along Logos books.   I hope this helps, Mick

 


Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 5317
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 2:21 PM

Blair Laird:

If all the bible software companies would just switch to the logos format...

I would love that but I doubt Logos would see it as being in their best interest. While other companies may well see it in their interest. And I think most defiantly it would be an ideal thing for us users, but i think it is a near impossibility to see it happen.

Going back to the original question, some software companies offer upgrades if owning a work in a competitors program. It usually varies resource to resource and company to company. I am not aware of any cross grades Logos has allowed beyond Zondervan resources from pradis years back.

-Dan 

Posts 2878
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 2:57 PM

Luigi Sam:

Michael Childs:

Luigi Sam:

WOW  The responses im getting are typical of the average yogi bear.

You are getting "Yogi Bear" answers because you are reasoning like "Boo Boo".

 

Not sure if thats supposed to be nasty... You should know better anyway.  You didn't even present any useful criticism (much less any reasons explaining / justifying your position) to start with.

 

EDIT: also you didn't even take to time to reply regarding my answers I have already given you. 

So why continue with one liners that do not benefit anyone except yourself (by trying to defend your pride regarding your ill put original post).

anyway oh well we all make mistakes so there's no need to snowball the matter. I hope you see my point.

Kind regards.

The statement about "Boo Boo reasoning" was a response to your statement about "Yogi Bear answers.  "Boo Boo" was "Yogi Bear's best friend.  Certainly, nothing nasty was intended. 

I want to apologize to you, Luigi.  Although I disagree with your point of view, I have no right to disrespect it, and the tone of my answer was not respectful.  I am sorry, brother.  There is no point in our discussing this further because neither of us will change the other's mind.  But we can agree to disagree in love.  Peace, Brother. 

 

 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 3:43 PM

Michael Childs:
No, it is not intended to be nasty.  Boo Boo was Yogi Bear's best friend.  I simply find you arguments to be silly. No point continuing this discussion. We will never agree.

Hi Michael, 

precisely what is silly?  what part? i'm open to be corrected so long as you explain yourself - that's all im saying.

Do you mean the following is silly?

 

1. Pay for published electronic books etc once. ( PUBLISHER GETS THEIR SALE FOR THE CUSTOMER )

2. pay a smaller fee for enhancements per bible software product that offers them.  ( SOFTWARE COMPANY GETS PAID FOR THEIR WORK / PRODUCT )

--- Meaning: if a bible software product offers enhancements for that book ( tags and significant features specific to the product (other than view/nav/basic search), and processing time for turning the book into their proprietary format - or even just for their time to offer supporting that book.)

3. however users who purchase those books can freely read / navigate those materials on any software.  ( USER PAYS ONCE PER BOOK, AND CAN CHOOSE TO ENHANCE PER SOFTWARE PRODUCT THEY USE)

-----------------------

Consider this scenario:

- user wants to purchase an electronic book/ book set costing $1,000

- user decides to purchase it in Logos format so it costs $1200 ( for example book=$1000 Logos enhancements for that book=$200)

- user wants to use it in WordSearch with the Enhancements offered by them for this product so user pays $200 (for example) for the enhancements.

- user also likes to use it in theWord Bible Software but is happy just to use the regular Read/Nav/Basic Search without enhancements.

Result

The user has saved $1000 from the WordSearch purchase & WordSearch Got Paid too.

The user saved $1000 (arguably) from not needing to purchase it again for basic Read/Nav/Basic search in TheWord.

 

-----------------------

So if any of my 'arguments' to justify this were silly, or not well founded enough, or not public knowledge enough to warrant them being glazed over so that the picture above can remain the point of focus then perhaps they were weak or silly points.  However do you honestly think the above is silly?

 

 

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 4:17 PM

Additionally, Perhaps the best argument/justification for this is made by the following:

 

Doesn't Logos offer the Same Resources for use on both Windows and Mac with no extra fees?  (because you all ready paid for the book and logos enhancements/logos work)

 

This is exactly the same aside from the fact that it can be used on multiple bible software products & every one gets paid too.

Posts 255
Sogol | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 8:40 PM

I haven't thought this through extensively, but I've thought for a while now that a good system might be something like this:

1) Publishers sell you a basic electronic license for a book.

2) You pay any publisher-approved platform provider (e.g. Logos, Accordance, Kindle, Nook, etc.) to use your license(s) on their platform. The platform fees would be set by each platform provider, and you could pay one platform fee to use your license on one platform or multiple platform fees to use your license on several platforms.

3) A small portion of that platform fee also goes to the publisher (thus incentivizing them to approve as many platform providers as possible).

Now I really have no idea what that margins look like in this business, but let me throw out some hypothetical numbers of how this might all work.

Let's look at a book that you might currently buy from Logos for $10.

Currently, the publisher might get $8 of that $10 purchase price while Logos gets $2.

Under this system I am talking about, you would purchase a license for the book from the publisher for $7.50. You would then pay Logos $2.50 to use it on their platform. Of that $2.50, Logos would pay the publisher $0.50. Then if you wanted to use that license on Amazon's Kindle, Amazon might charge you another $1.50 (with $0.30 going to the publisher).

Admittedly, this approach seems most likely to benefit readers, as publishers would no longer get paid the full value again when you purchase a book on another platform. Furthermore, platform providers would no longer have you quite as "locked-in" when you own a book for use on their platform. And even though it most benefits readers, it still won't satisfy those who think you should only have to pay for a book once.

However, in the long-run, I think this is a pretty fair model for everyone. And I would hope that a system like this would be so much more attractive to readers that it would boost overall interest in the electronic book market, thus generating additional sales for publishers and platform providers.

Posts 255
Sogol | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 13 2013 8:44 PM

Luigi Sam:

1. Pay for published electronic books etc once. ( PUBLISHER GETS THEIR SALE FOR THE CUSTOMER )

2. pay a smaller fee for enhancements per bible software product that offers them.  ( SOFTWARE COMPANY GETS PAID FOR THEIR WORK / PRODUCT )

--- Meaning: if a bible software product offers enhancements for that book ( tags and significant features specific to the product (other than view/nav/basic search), and processing time for turning the book into their proprietary format - or even just for their time to offer supporting that book.)

3. however users who purchase those books can freely read / navigate those materials on any software.  ( USER PAYS ONCE PER BOOK, AND CAN CHOOSE TO ENHANCE PER SOFTWARE PRODUCT THEY USE)

 

Whoops. Sorry, Luigi Sam. I didn't see that you posted this before I posted my comment. However, it looks like we have some similar thinking on this. Good to know that others see the value in this kind of model!

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