L4 and Precept (Inductive) Bible Studies.

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Posts 3195
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 11:30 AM

Kaye Anderson:
I have a Precept book and I am working through it to get used to the study style

Kay,I have bought the NASB bible which is dsigned for the inductive study bible method recommended by Kay Arthur  before 7years ,could you tell me what they have now?

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 3195
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 10 2010 11:34 AM

Terry Poperszky:
How to Study Your Bible (The Lasting Rewards of the Inductive Method), I would highly recommend it.

This book is a very good one ,I have used the old one and the updated one.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 14
Kim Clayton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 6:13 AM

Terry, to answer your 'workflow' question.  First I would like to say that I don't have Logos 4, I have L3 and have been doing the PUP studies for many years  just started learning to use L3.

Here is my workflow

Following the PUP study instructions-when you are a beginner don't  skip a step in the instructions it has a ripple affect as you become familiar there are some time savers. 

I make my chart/lists in MSWord-arthur, recipient, people, At A Glance - Then copy/paste to Logos Notes, I only answer questions in the actual PUP book.  But I will be transfer that to the Notes so everything will be there (not sure how yet)  All the work is done in MSWord and copied to the Notes.  My lesson plan (teaching guide) will also be in the notes. You just have to remember that as you continue in your study you will make changes to the charts/lists-so get in the habit of changing in MSWord then copy to Logos Notes.

Suggestion for Note organization -Color code the Notes

Green for the Overview, I do all the charts in MSWord, open a Note in Logos and copy and paste my charts to the Green Notes

Purple Note for all things about God

Red Note Lesson 1, L2, L3

I hope this helps, as I said I am just getting started with using Logos for PUP studies.  As far as I know there are no study books available at this time within Logos but at the Precept Leaders site there was talk of the possibility.

To those looking to dig deeper I would like to encourage you to continue using the PUP studies which allows you to dig, sometimes the encouragement from a group discussion spurs you on to dig, also using the DVD lectures that Precept offers give you additional insight.  For myself, if I don't feel I am getting much from the book it is usually because I am not completing the assignments from the PUP workbook or I am not meditatively praying the Text.

When I trained to be a Precept Leader I sat beside pastors who had went to seminary and were in 'awe' of the inductive process.

Karen, thank you, for the download, I just purchased your Dad's book, Jensen's Bible Study Charts.

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 6:45 AM

KimClayton:
Terry, to answer your 'workflow' question.  First I would like to say that I don't have Logos 4, I have L3 and have been doing the PUP studies for many years  just started learning to use L3.

Personally, I think that workflow between L3 and L4 will be similar, varying only in technical details. Thanks for sharing the details.

KimClayton:
When I trained to be a Precept Leader I sat beside pastors who had went to seminary and were in 'awe' of the inductive process.

The funny part is that my wife (who also trained as a Precept Leader) told me that my studies did instinctively what she had to train to understand (I am a former pastor). I started attending the actual Precept courses last year when I wanted to refine my technique. We have a couple of other trained leaders at our Church, but Precept has never gained much ground here and classes died soon after starting. What my wife and I are doing now is a SS class that is based on the the fruits of our own inductive studies. We are hoping that by introducing people to the tools and concepts slowly God will use that to waken the desire for deeper study in the hearts of our adult students. So far, so good. Many actually did last weeks home work Big Smile

 

 

Posts 191
Sharon | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 11:03 AM

Hi Terry,

Blessed to hear about you seeking to feed God's children.

I taught Precept for almost 20 years, ran out of PUP books and had to start writing my own for my students.

My work flow:

I start by reading the book of the Bible through that I am going to study.  (I use my personal print Bible for this.)  I will read it through 50-100 times before I go to the next step.  Each time I am reading it through with a purpose, marking one thing, and only one thing, each time through.  I will many times read the book over several times just looking for one thing.  I scour the text.  This has obvious benefits in hearing the Word from God.  The things I mark are God, Jesus, Spirit, key words, key phrases, time phrases, contrasts & comparisons, terms of conclusions, etc.

Along the way, as I see major segment divisions in the book (which becomes clearer each time I read it through) I mark them.

If I see definite divisions in a chapter, I will mark those, as well, along with chapter themes.

It takes me a few months on just this first step of observing the text.  It is not boring at all.  It is exciting because God's Word is Spirit and Truth and so I see soooo many more things doing it this way that it is almost impossible to believe unless one has done it themselves.  And of course, as God is speaking to me the whole time, He is calling me to other passages, revealing connections within the text, etc.

Once the initial observations are made (and yes, my Bibles get pretty used - but then, they have become my familiar friends, as well), I then put Logos under the hood and drive full steam ahead.  This is when I use Logos to define word meanings, locate additional cross-references, create charts, etc.

Finally, if there is ever a 'finally' when studying a book of the Lord's, when I am ready to teach, I use Logos to accumulate my findings and save it in Word.  I use this accumulation as a commentary whenever I teach the same book again.

I teach from my Bible alone.  After spending so much time with the Lord in it, He leads me through each book, verse by verse, word by word, supernaturally reminding me what He has taught me.  And of course, He uses the notes "We" have made in my Bible to help me, too.

This whole process definitely takes times.  It took over two years to study and teach Revelation, and another two years for Romans, etc.  Isaiah has taken me 4 years and I am still studying and teaching it!  There are only a few books I have not studied to "teach" (which is a whole other thing than studying to "learn") and most I have taught many times.  I can count on needing 50-60 hours per week of study.  Each time I try to start fresh, but of course, each time is easier and faster than the time before.

I am assuming you are wanting to use Logos for more of the process than I do.  The reason I do not is simply this--I don't believe I can possibly do, with Logos, what I can do with my hands and eyes, focusing just on the Word alone for that first step.  I draw arrows all over, circle things, etc. that just can't be done with a program.  Plus, you cannot just let Logos find every reference to a certain word.  It's a program (magnificent, to be sure) but it can't deliberate over a dilemma and make a Spirit led choice like I can (like differentiating which servant in Isaiah should be Jesus or Israel, or whether it is referring to both, not to mention all the pronouns and possible synonyms!)

I asked Dale Prichett for the tools to mark the text in Logos almost 20 years ago.  I honestly am glad he was not able to offer them at the time, or I might have missed out on a lifetime (2 decades so far) of personal 'One on one' time with my Teacher.  Even now, as advanced as the tools have become I would not change for the world!

If you can get your hands on any of the older PUP workbooks and tapes - do it!  They are awesome!  Unfortunately, Precept has diluted its method over the years in order to accommodate a different audience.  You just can't study (the observation part) faster and study as well, but that's the market.  I remember Kay saying once that she would rather have just a couple of students who were willing to study inductively and learn truth for themselves than have hundreds of students who just wanted to be spoon fed.  I agree.  I thank the Lord for Kay's service to God's people.

Sorry this is so long.  It's just that there is no greater need than hearing the Word of God!

May God conform you into the image of His Son as you seek Him in His Word.

Sharon

 

 

wordcenterministries.org

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 11:25 AM

Sharon:
I am assuming you are wanting to use Logos for more of the process than I do
Yes, but I have found that at this time it isn't possible, neither L3 or L4 let me print out the highlighted text and as you have mention lines, arrows and circles are lacking as well. My compromise is to print out my own "observation worksheets" and do my markup on those as well as in Logos. Although my initial readings are all done in L4 and I don't use a paper bible outside of the class room.

Sharon:
If you can get your hands on any of the older PUP workbooks and tapes - do it!  They are awesome!  Unfortunately, Precept has diluted its method over the years in order to accommodate a different audience.

Well there I am in luck, since my wife did her teacher certification about 20 years ago, I have access to her manuals as well as studies that she has done over the years. I am currently attending 2nd Isaiah class that is being taught at another church, although she does not teach it in the traditional manner.

 

Sharon:
Sorry this is so long.  It's just that there is no greater need than hearing the Word of God!
Unless it is the application of it Big Smile As for the length of your reply, it will be one of the shorter things that I have read today. Thank you for taking the time.

 

 

Posts 14
Kim Clayton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 2:07 PM

Thanks for sharing Sharon, I only started learning to use L3 for inductive just a few weeks ago. So I just shared with Terry some things I was taught from another gal to get him started in Logos.  I do everything in MSWord then copied it to L3. I did mark the Text in L3 after I marked my Bible and the Observation Worksheet from the study. Like you said every read-thru you find something else.

I do many of the things you stated, I also begin reading the book many week ahead of time.   I have been doing the Overview for three weeks now and not near finished.  I love holding the Book and may never be a true convert to screen reading.

I am intrigued by some of the things you noted about Kay's studies, I did the PUP study last year of Isaiah and was displeased with the speed-fast and the shallowness of the PUP study even though it took us seven months it was too fast.  And so I assume the website Word Center Ministries is yours and I have already looked at some of your studies and I have a question for you, I looked at John, James and Romans and noticed that you don't do an overview-at least in my quick viewing of the files I didn't see that may I ask why?  Also, may I ask what is your personal print Bible?

I have some other things to address but I will email you from your site.

Thank you

Kim

Posts 1142
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 2:57 PM

Sharon:

I taught Precept for almost 20 years, ran out of PUP books and had to start writing my own for my students.

My work flow:

I start by reading the book of the Bible through that I am going to study.  (I use my personal print Bible for this.)  I will read it through 50-100 times before I go to the next step.  Each time I am reading it through with a purpose, marking one thing, and only one thing, each time through.  I will many times read the book over several times just looking for one thing.  I scour the text.  This has obvious benefits in hearing the Word from God.  The things I mark are God, Jesus, Spirit, key words, key phrases, time phrases, contrasts & comparisons, terms of conclusions, etc.

Along the way, as I see major segment divisions in the book (which becomes clearer each time I read it through) I mark them.

If I see definite divisions in a chapter, I will mark those, as well, along with chapter themes.

  I remember Kay saying once that she would rather have just a couple of students who were willing to study inductively and learn truth for themselves than have hundreds of students who just wanted to be spoon fed.  I agree.  I thank the Lord for Kay's service to God's people.

Sorry this is so long.  It's just that there is no greater need than hearing the Word of God!

May God conform you into the image of His Son as you seek Him in His Word.

Sharon

 

Hi Sharon,

A quick question or two since you are a busy lady.  Perhaps, this should be obvious from your posts but I am unclear.  Do you teach others how to do inductive study or are you teaching the results of your inductive study, on a particular book?  Or, both, maybe?  Second, have you actually written all of what you do down so that it could be published?  I hope so since your written words, BTW, carry a very strong anointing.  I think you are living out the 2Tim 2:2 that we learned from CCC Smile .  God Bless

Posts 191
Sharon | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 3:42 PM

KimClayton:
And so I assume the website Word Center Ministries is yours and I have already looked at some of your studies and I have a question for you, I looked at John, James and Romans and noticed that you don't do an overview-at least in my quick viewing of the files I didn't see that may I ask why?

Hi Kim!

Yes, that is our Ministry website.  We just started putting materials online last year and we are finding it a daunting task to push everything into a format for the web.  We didn't know a thing about websites, etc. (still don't know much) but we ordered a video called Web Expressions and just started trying.  Therefore, much is left to do!

As far as the overviews, it is not because they aren't important - they are!  And it's not because I don't do them - I do!  It is just that for now, the thing I believe most students (of mine through the years) have had trouble with is the observation part.  And if they don't get that part, then nothing else is going to have the needed context.  So, I have started with the Observation Guides.  I don't ask every single W & H, but I ask a lot of them - verse by verse and sometimes word by word.  Our hope is to teach by repetition the skill of observation.  Once people come to the knowledge that they can ask those same questions (the questions that the text has answers for) themselves - we are thrilled!  We want to magnify the Word of God so that others may see Him!

In the audio teachings, I usually do an overview.  And in some of the courses, like Isaiah, for instance, the overview is a whole course by itself, which takes months.  And then Isaiah also has a Prequel course that takes several more months.  I also believe that with the observation process, many parts of the overview will start to come into focus.

Our goal is not to reinvent the wheel - I think Precept is the wheel of Bible Study.  Our hope would be to fill in a small niche that might be helpful.  As I have looked at Bible Studies, it seems that too many are all about asking a few summary type questions and then asking how that applies to your life.  What we are trying to supply is the art of observing the text completely.  I believe our studies can be great companions to other Bible Studies and need not be used separately.  Like the Irving Jensen materials--I use those each and every time I teach a book!  He has great overview charts.  Sometimes I come up with something I think is "better", but most of the time, I learn so much that I assimilate at least part of his into mine.

Anyway, because we don't have everything on the web, and because we can only do one part at a time, this is the part we are focusing on.  Hope that explains.

KimClayton:
Also, may I ask what is your personal print Bible?

I use an NASB 95 update, IISB.  I wish it were available in the older larger font that Precept used to sell, but it's not.  My Bible weights 3 pounds and the old one weighed 4 pounds.  Most people just did not want the extra weight.  For me, it was an okay trade off to get the larger font and the wider margins.  I have looked online several times and have not found the 95 update in large print and wide margins without the publisher's comments taking up MY space!Surprise  But I always keep an eye out for that perfect one!Geeked

KimClayton:
I have some other things to address but I will email you from your site.

I will look forward to hearing from you!

In Him,

Sharon

 

KimClayton:
I love holding the Book and may never be a true convert to screen reading.

PS  Me, too! Wink

wordcenterministries.org

Posts 191
Sharon | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 4:40 PM

Joan Korte:
A quick question or two since you are a busy lady.  Perhaps, this should be obvious from your posts but I am unclear.  Do you teach others how to do inductive study or are you teaching the results of your inductive study, on a particular book?  Or, both, maybe?  Second, have you actually written all of what you do down so that it could be published?  I hope so since your written words, BTW, carry a very strong anointing.  I think you are living out the 2Tim 2:2 that we learned from CCC Smile .  God Bless

Hi Joan!

1.  I teach others how to study inductively in class.  But I also teach others the results of my personal inductive study in class.  (I hold workshops, weekly classes, etc.)  We would like to get the process, or instructions for the process, online sometime; although my method is really no different that Kay's or Irving's.  It would just be a matter of making it convenient for those who are studying the courses I have written.

2.  I do actually have it all written down--deep down inside of my computer!  I also have all my teachings digitally recorded.  Most of them are transcribed.  We are just trying to get everything together.  Publishing is certainly an option, although we don't know anything about that either.  Our hope is just to get the truth that I have been entrusted with into the hands of God's people.  I am getting older... and we feel like we have so much still to give...

Hope that answers your questions!  Let me know.

Thanks so much for your kind and encouraging words!

In Him,

Sharon

FYI -  Did you know that the word for anoint means to smear?  You probably do since you love word studies.  We took a lot of trees down one year and the ones that were not to be cut were anointed - marked with paint for identification purposes.  The man on the bulldozer could see each and every tree to take down or to leave.  And yet, he took down many that were not to be destroyed.  It was heart-breaking looking at those beautiful trees lying broken on the ground with a big red "x" on them.  They were sacrificed for that man's convenience.

I couldn't help but think of Jesus, everything He did... everything He said... everything about Him was like a huge red mark declaring, "This is the One.  He is My Son!  I have sent Him!  Listen to Him!  Hear Him!"  And yet the people paid no attention to His anointing and they cut Him down...    

Even in His death, even today, the bloody red smear still shouts, "This is the Coming One!  This is the Promised One!  This is the Anointed One!  This is the Messiah!"  If people would only open their eyes to see Him, they would see His anointing and KNOW He is the Christ!

wordcenterministries.org

Posts 1359
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 4:47 PM

Sharon:

FYI -  Did you know that the word for anoint means to smear?  You probably do since you love word studies.  We took a lot of trees down one year and the ones that were not to be cut were anointed - marked with paint for identification purposes.  The man on the bulldozer could see each and every tree to take down or to leave.  And yet, he took down many that were not to be destroyed.  It was heart-breaking looking at those beautiful trees lying broken on the ground with a big red "x" on them.  They were sacrificed for that man's convenience.

I couldn't help but think of Jesus, everything He did... everything He said... everything about Him was like a huge red mark declaring, "This is the One.  He is My Son!  I have sent Him!  Listen to Him!  Hear Him!"  And yet the people paid no attention to His anointing and they cut Him down...    

Even in His death, even today, the bloody red smear still shouts, "This is the Coming One!  This is the Promised One!  This is the Anointed One!  This is the Messiah!"  If people would only open their eyes to see Him, they would see His anointing and KNOW He is the Christ!

Thanks for that information.

I will use it this week in my SS class (postponed because of last week's ice!). The passage where the Roman centurion shouts "Truly, this was the Son of God." 

Posts 191
Sharon | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 4:57 PM

He truly was... and is!

wordcenterministries.org

Posts 4
Gary Dolan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 5:58 PM

Do you have word templates for MSWord-arthur, recipient, people, At A Glance - already formatted similar to those in the Inductive Study Bible?

Posts 14
Kim Clayton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 26 2010 8:46 AM

Gary, I couldn't tell who you were addressing this too but  I will share what I do, because each chart is different in number of chapters it is hard to do just one template in MSWord for all studies because you always have to adapt. So I don't do templates, I do all my charts in a table format and it only takes a few seconds to create a blank one. The At A Glance is all two columns wide and and the number of chapters long-so Phil would be 4 rows down.

The great thing about this is for example in Philippians most of the book is exhortation and instructions so I create the table 3 rows down and four columns wide then I copy all of Phil from Logos and place it at the bottom of the table/chart and then I grab(copy/paste) chapter one and place the whole thing in column one then go thru and delete what isn't an instruction or exhortation. I also color the Text red for exhortation and teal for instructions.

Posts 1228
Ron | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 22 2010 12:13 PM

Kaye Anderson:
I have Kay Arthur's book mentioned above on my Kindle and I have two of her study guides (Daniel and Revelation) in print.  I didn't feel like I was getting all I could from the study using the book as a first timer so I went to her website, found archives and downloaded her 50 30-minute audio lessons on Daniel.  It took a bit to download them but I also got the study guide and have been using them with much better success...and they were all free!

Hi Kaye (I hope you are still around), can you point me to those audio lessons on Kay Arthur's site?  I've looked around there, but only see audio lessons available for purchase in the store...and even the Daniel ones available for purchase don't total up to 50 lessons unless I'm missing something.  Thanks!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 22 2010 12:34 PM

Sharon:
PUP books

Okay, what does PUP stand for?

Sharon:
The reason I do not is simply this--I don't believe I can possibly do, with Logos, what I can do with my hands and eyes, focusing just on the Word alone for that first step.  I draw arrows all over, circle things, etc. that just can't be done with a program.  Plus, you cannot just let Logos find every reference to a certain word.  It's a program (magnificent, to be sure) but it can't deliberate over a dilemma and make a Spirit led choice like I can (like differentiating which servant in Isaiah should be Jesus or Israel, or whether it is referring to both, not to mention all the pronouns and possible synonyms!)

I'm also curious about this statement. Mind you, I only have an overview understanding of Arthur's work. But with the combination of the diagramming and highlighting tools, what does the Precept model do that can't be done in Logos? And when evaluating the reference list, why don't you find Logos conducive to Spirit-led discernment? I'm curious because your comments make me think that I may be misunderstanding Precept Bible study - and Bible study methods and techniques fascinate me.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1228
Ron | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 22 2010 12:42 PM

MJ. Smith:
Okay, what does PUP stand for?

Precept upon precept

MJ. Smith:
I'm also curious about this statement. Mind you, I only have an overview understanding of MacArthur's work. But with the combination of the diagramming and highlighting tools, what does the Precept model do that can't be done in Logos? And when evaluating the reference list, why don't you find Logos conducive to Spirit-led discernment? I'm curious because your comments make me think that I may be misunderstanding Precept Bible study - and Bible study methods and techniques fascinate me.

I assume you mean Kay Arthur, not MacArthur?

While I can't speak for Sharon, I believe what was meant by the comment is that by doing the precept observation in Logos, there is often a temptation to let the program do most of the work for you (i.e. having it find and highlight all the pronouns, keywords, etc) rather than searching and finding them for yourself.

Posts 1142
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 22 2010 12:49 PM

Hi MJ,

Just to get you started.  PUP = Precept Upon Precept.  Kay Arthur founded this ministry and it revolves around the concept of Inductive Bible Study.  There are others that know a lot more than I do.  Here's a link to peruse the website.  "Precept 101" is highly informative, there.  Hope this helps.Big Smile

http://www.precept.org/site/PageServer

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 22 2010 12:49 PM

Ronald S Keyston Jr:
I assume you mean Kay Arthur, not MacArthur?

Yes, I was working on the correction while you worked on the reply. Smile Shall we say that in the forum, many names are referred to which are unfamiliar or marginally familiar to me. And since I'm very poor with names, even those that I've actually read or read about get muddled.

Ronald S Keyston Jr:
there is often a temptation to let the program do most of the work for you

And I can't resist a bit of humor. Does that mean we should always pray the Lord's prayer before using Logos ("lead us not into temptation")? Perhaps it can be added to the home page as an audio.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1228
Ron | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 22 2010 2:27 PM

MJ. Smith:
And I can't resist a bit of humor. Does that mean we should always pray the Lord's prayer before using Logos ("lead us not into temptation")? Perhaps it can be added to the home page as an audio.

LOL, may not be a bad idea Stick out tongue

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