Seminary Books?

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Posts 9
Jesse | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Sep 2 2013 12:59 PM

Just a thought here, but as I've been looking through my syllabi for Fuller Seminary, I've found only 1 book out of the next 22 books I will need to purchase available on Logos (Vyrso at that). For a Bible software program that markets itself as a powerful tool for seminary students, wouldn't it be a good idea to actually offer seminary books?

I realize all the hang ups with the publishers and the permissions, but I nonetheless am disappointed with the disconnect here. 

Anyone else?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 1:26 PM

Jesse:
Anyone else?

Maybe the disconnect is predominantly with Fuller, No? I have found almost half of my required/recommended texts are available in Logos. There are so many books that can be used as textbooks that without co-ordination I doubt Logos will ever have all the titles needed.

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David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 1:30 PM

A few months back I saw a forum post, blog post or received an email from Logos asking to forward copies of Seminary syllabi because they want to avoid the issue that Jesse is facing. I believe it was an email because I am currently receiving the academic discount.

 

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 1:39 PM

Jesse:

For a Bible software program that markets itself as a powerful tool for seminary students, wouldn't it be a good idea to actually offer seminary books?

Logos offers plenty of seminary textbooks... But I understand the disappointment when the ones you need aren't available. "Logos Edition" resources generally take awhile to make. In addition to the manual tagging, the license agreements with the publishers are more complicated. "Vyrso edition" resources can be made very quickly, but the quality can vary dramatically from one resource to another. Logos does not intend to carry two different versions of the resource, and so if a resource is a good candidate for a "Logos edition," it generally goes on the back burner until everything can be worked out and the book can be created. 

About textbooks... I have perhaps a unique perspective, as I worked for Barnes & Noble Collegiate Bookstores while attending Seminary. I had inside knowledge both from the school side, and the bookstore side. There were problems each semester with obtaining the right books for all the classes. Most textbooks were procured for Most classes... But there were always things that caused troubles on both sides of the fence. One of the profs submitted the class reading list to the bookstore just a couple of weeks before class started... Not nearly enough time to get everything ordered and ready for sale by the time class started. 

Logos doesn't have many of the issues that a "brick and mortar" college bookstore would have, but some of the issues remain. Think about this: When did the prof decide which books to use? How often do the reading lists change? How many seminaries are there in the US? How many classes does that represent? It would be crazy to think that Logos could keep up with ALL of the required reading lists for ALL of the seminaries in the US, especially when those reading lists are continually changing. Logos does have some special relationships with a few seminaries... I would assume that those seminaries get some special treatment to make as many books on their required reading lists available in Logos editions. Even then, my guess is that not all books are available. This is especially true when a prof changes his/her syllabus frequently and/or decides to use newly published (or new editions) of works. 

Out of curiosity... If your required reading lists are digital, would you mind copy and pasting them here? It would be interesting to see what books need to get put into Logos.

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Posts 525
Kent | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 2:15 PM

A few of these are available.

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Morris, Jesus is the Christ: Studies in the Theology of John (1989).

Towns, The Gospel of John: Believe and Live (2002).

Duvall & Hays, Grasping God’s Word (2012).

Goodrick & Kohlenberger, The Strongest NIV Exhaustive Concordance (2004).

Davis, Paradise to Prison (1998).

Walton, Chronological and Background Charts of the Old Testament (1994).

Moo, The NIV Application Commentary: Romans (2000).

Hindson, Revelation, Revelation (2002).

Hindson & LaHaye, The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy (2004).

Miller, Daniel (1994).

Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity, Vol. 1 (2010).

Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity (2010).

Elwell, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (2001).

Nash, Is Jesus the Only Savior? (1994).

Walvoord, Jesus Christ Our Lord (1969).

Boyd & Eddy, Across the Spectrum:Understanding Issues in Evangelical Theology

(2009).

Erwin Lutzer, The Doctrines that Divide (1998).

Beilby, Thinking About Christian Apologetics (2011).

Bush, The Advancement (2003).

Groothuis, Christian Apologetics (2011).

Ferguson, Church History Volume 1: From Christ to Pre-Reformation (2005).

Bettenson & Maunder, Documents of the Christian Church (2011).

Gonzalez, The Story of Christianity (2010).

McGrath, Christianity’s Dangerous Idea (2007).

Dobson et al., The Fundamentalist Phenomenon (1986).

Marsden, Fundamentalism and American Culture (2006).

Marsden, Understanding Fundamentalism and Evangelicalism (1991).

Gaustad, The Religious History of America (2002).

McBeth, The Baptist Heritage: Four Centuries of Baptist Witness (1987).

Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology (2008).

Grenz, Stanley, and Roger E. Olson. Who Needs Theology? An Invitation to the Study of God.

Elwell, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology (2001).

Erickson, Christian Theology (1998).

Beck, Two Views on Women in Ministry (2005).

Erickson, Christian Theology (1998).

Fee, Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God (1996).

Hoyt, The Judgment Seat of Christ (2011).

St. Gregory, On God and Christ (2002).

Bray, The Doctrine of God (1993).

Feinberg, No One Like Him (2001).

Froese & Bader, America’s Four Gods (2010).

Gundry & Jowers et al., Four Views on Divine Providence (2011).

McCormack, Engaging the Doctrine of God (2008).

Vanhoozer, Nothing Greater, Nothing Better (2001).

Carson & Moo, An Introduction to the New Testament (2005).

Lea & Black, The New Testament: Its Background and Message (2003).

Scott, Jewish Backgrounds of the New Testament (2000).

Bruce, Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free (1977).

Carson & Moo, An Introduction to the New Testament (2005).

Lea & Black, The New Testament: Its Background and Message (2003).

Black & Beck, Rethinking the Synoptic Problem (2001).

Köstenberger, et al., The Cradle, the Cross, and the Crown: An Introduction to the

New Testament (2009).

Merrill et al., The World and the Word (2011).

Oswalt, The Bible Among the Myths (2009).

Walton, Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament (2006).

LaSor et al., Old Testament Survey: The Meesage, Form, and Background of the Old Testament (1996).

Wright, Knowing Jesus Through the Old Testament (1995).

LaSor et al., Old Testament Survey: The Message, Form and Background of the Old Testament (1996).

 

Arnold, B. T. and B. E. Beyer. Encountering the Old Testament: A Christian Survey. 2nd edition. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2008.

Baker, D. W. and B. T. Arnold, eds. The Face of Old Testament Studies: A Survey of Contemporary Approaches. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2004.

Brisco, Thomas. Holman Bible Atlas. Nashville: B&H, 1998.

DeVries, Lamoine. Cities of the Biblical World: An Introduction to the Archaeology, Geography and History of Biblical Cites. Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, 2006.

Dillard, R. and T. Longman III. An Introduction to the Old Testament. 2nd edition. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2006.

Harrison, R. K. An Old Testament Introduction. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979.

Hill, A. E. and J. H. Walton. A Survey of the Old Testament. Expanded and Redesigned. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2009.

Killebrew, Ann E. Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, and Early Israel 1300-1100 B.C.E. Atlanta: SBL, 2005.

LaSor, W. S., D. A. Hubbard, and F. W. Bush. Old Testament Survey. 2nd edition. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1996.

Matthews, Victor H. Studying the Ancient Israelites: a Guide to Sources and Methods. Grand Rapids: Baker, 2007.

Niehaus, Jeffrey J. Ancient Near Eastern Themes in Biblical Theology. Grand Rapids: Kregel, 2008.

Provan, I., V. P. Long, and T. Longman III. A Biblical History of Israel. Louisville: Westminster John Knox, 2003.

Rasmussen, Carl G. Zondervan Atlas of the Bible. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2009.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 2:16 PM

I wonder if there's an economic issue here. Even on Amazon I avoid clearly collegiate texts, they almost always being introductory or out of date.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 19274
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 3:05 PM

Regent College does not publish its syllabi publicly on the web; you have to be a registered student in order to see them. I'm not sure they would want students sharing the syllabi with other institutions or Logos.

Regent has its own bricks and mortar bookstore (an excellent one, by the way, probably one of the top two theological bookstores in North America; bummer that they've just got a new website and their catalogue is not online yet on the new site). So they wouldn't want to facilitate students getting digital versions of their required texts, because it would sabotage the income of the school's own bookstore. I know that other seminaries (e.g., Westminster, Fuller, Denver) have their own bookstores too, and that might be their reasoning as well.

If Logos could work out some arrangement with seminary bookstores to have people buy the digital books from Logos via referral and have the seminary bookstore get a kickback, that might be a win-win situation. Logos would get more customers, and the bricks and mortar seminary bookstores would get some compensation for losing business to digital books.

I'm sure Logos would say that seminary bookstores are dinosaurs anyway, and they wouldn't want to do anything to help them continue to exist. But they do serve a purpose. There is a curatorial role that such bookstore managers serve, which Logos can't and won't provide. I can go into the Regent Bookstore and be fairly confident that all the books I find there are of excellent quality and would be useful in my developing thinking as a Regent student/alum. I'm sure that's true of different seminary bookstores, though the books in them will tend to be more geared towards their particular theological perspectives.

Posts 3073
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 3:45 PM

Rosie Perera:
Regent College does not publish its syllabi publicly on the web; you have to be a registered student in order to see them. I'm not sure they would want students sharing the syllabi with other institutions or Logos.

Unless something changed in the most recent Higher Education Reauthorization Act, any school which receives federal funds of any kind has to play be the Feds rules, and one of those rules is, syllabi are public documents and are not subject to FERPA restrictions. Additionally, they must be made available to accrediting bodies and other institutions in order for those institutions to allow the transfer of coursework.

Rosie Perera:
Logos via referral and have the seminary bookstore get a kickback

This is a huge issue right now with all brick-and-mortar bookstores, and too big to get into here.

Rosie Perera:
they wouldn't want to facilitate students getting digital versions of their required texts

That is against the law.  In fact, we (and all institutions of higher learning) are now required to publish ISBN numbers with required and options textbooks in the class schedule so students can use alternative means of acquisition for textbooks. At this point, the law hasn't specified that schools cannot require a specific type of text (i.e. digital vs. hard copy) but I expect that to be the case by the next HERA passage.

Federal intrusion into higher education is at an almost unbelievable level, but because of the mindset that the government fixes everything, legislation will continue to be more and more onerous. It has been estimated by one economist (I don't have a link handy) that the average cost of college education would be 60% less without federal regulation. I think that's being generous to the feds.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 1660
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 4:21 PM

Doc B:
any school which receives federal funds of any kind has to play be the Feds rules, and one of those rules is, syllabi are public documents and are not subject to FERPA restrictions.

Is it possible that this is a USA versus Canada difference?

I ask that because [I think] the "Regent" that Rosie is referring to is in the Province of British Columbia? [I am pretty sure that there is a totally different "Regent" in the U.S.A?.]

Regards, SteveF

Posts 452
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 5:51 PM

Hey Jesse, fellow Fuller student here! I'm just finishing my first year in the MDiv program, and I've had similar problems with Logos availability, though some classes are better than others. I think part of it is the way Fuller profs tend to choose their books. They use a lot of recent publications from academic publishers, a lot of monographs from prominent theologians, and a lot of journal articles. Logos tends to focus on stuff that's marketable to a broader Evangelical base, and shy away from stuff that will only sell to academics.

It's a catch-22, because that's part of why I chose Fuller. Looking at syllabi, most other Evangelical seminaries worked from textbooks. Logos has more of those, but I'd much rather actually read Gustaf Aulen's Christus Victor (which is not in Logos) than what Wayne Grudem has to say about Aulen's views in his Systematic Theology (which is in Logos).

That said, Logos does need more primary sources for academic theology outside of the Evangelical bubble. I'm very disappointed they don't have the major works of Aulen, Yoder, Volf, Moltmann (outside a massively expensive collection), and many other important theologians and ethicists.

Just out of curiosity, what classes are you taking this fall?

Posts 1985
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 6:59 PM

Gotta chime in on this one..

Yes, Logos doesn't have many of the books that Fuller Seminary recommend.. :(

.

Required readings (click on classes's catalog number for books required & recommended)

I'll be really happy if Logos carry at least 50% of the required ones.

.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 7:07 PM

Mitchell:
they don't have the major works of Aulen, Yoder, Volf, Moltmann (outside a massively expensive collection), and many other important theologians and ethicists.

Important to whom? It is probably a supply & demand thing. They will sell more Wayne Grudem than all these others combined. How many of these authors would you buy at "massively expensive" prices? I would not buy them unless they were at Community Pricing levels. Supply & demand.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 19274
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2013 9:41 PM

SteveF:

Doc B:
any school which receives federal funds of any kind has to play be the Feds rules, and one of those rules is, syllabi are public documents and are not subject to FERPA restrictions.

Is it possible that this is a USA versus Canada difference?

I ask that because [I think] the "Regent" that Rosie is referring to is in the Province of British Columbia? [I am pretty sure that there is a totally different "Regent" in the U.S.A?.]

Yes, Regent College is in Canada and is not beholden to the [U.S.] Feds. It doesn't receive any government funding from Canada anymore either -- hasn't for years. Canada stopped funding theological schools back in the 90's or so. Harder financially on places like Regent, but better to maintain their independence.

And Steve is correct. There is absolutely no connection between Regent College in Canada and Regent University in the US. Very different theologies (Regent U was founded by Pat Robertson and espouses his flavor of theology; Regent College is transdenominational, grad school only). People confuse the two all the time. Regent College had the name first. There was also a Regents (plural) College in York, England, now called Excelsior College (I guess they wisely decided not to compete for the name), and a Regent's University in London, both also unrelated.

Posts 452
Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2013 12:23 AM

Super Tramp:
Important to whom?

To me, of course!

But seriously, I understand the supply/demand thing. I'm not mad at Logos, they can sell what they want. But they would get more of my business if they sold this stuff.

Posts 111
Keith Gant | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2013 12:33 AM

For each seminary course I had, the first thing I'd do was see how many of the textbooks I could get in Logos. For textual courses requiring commentaries, a high % were available (although occasionally only in sets, not for individual purchase). But for theology courses, very few were available. Also sometimes Logos did not have the latest version (for example, Logos STILL does not have the 2010 version of http://www.logos.com/product/555/the-dead-sea-scrolls-today, though when I needed it for a course in 2010 they told me it s/b soon).

I would add that having resources such as Anchor Bible Dictionary, ISBE, the IVP dictionaries, BDAG and other Greek tools, etc. in Logos, while not required textbooks, was a tremendous help on papers.

Like mike mentioned with Fuller, my school also makes its syllabi public: http://hst.edu/students/class-schedule-and-syllabi/

Posts 9
Jesse | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2013 1:44 AM

Hi Mitchell

I actually live in Sweden and I'm doing the MAGL online courses. I really don't have a good paperback option. Besides the price of the book, I'll have to pay for shipping, which is sometimes more than the book itself, and then I'll have to pay "skatt" or import tax on the book, which can be 30 percent of the retail price (ahh socialism). So, the digital world is a must for me.

Some of the books I need are available in Logos, but they are apart of a large $400 package. I'm unable to buy the individual titles. Announcing the Kingdom by Auther Glasser for instance was the one available through Vyrso, but this book is 23 chapters and over 400 pages. Not having all the search features or even the page numbers for that matter, can make things more complicated. 

I had to purchase NT Wrights' After You Believe on Amazon because I didn't want to buy his entire collection to get it with Logos. The same with Walt Kaisers' Missions in the Old Testament. 

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2013 7:07 AM

Keith's example of the DSS intro volume is a good one:

'An eminent Dead Sea Scrolls researcher, James C. VanderKam offers a popular, up-to-date introduction to the scrolls and the ongoing debate that surrounds their study.'

From 20 years ago.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 2896
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2013 7:16 AM

I think Logos would love to be able to  provide books for seminary students, but it is impossible.  Nearly every seminary professor selects his own text books, and you well know how eccentric and goofy those profs are.  There is no telling what book they will select, (except they will probably be the most expensive.)  Likely as not, they will pick one of their own books, or a book by one of their professors.  There is no way Logos can publish whatever the thousands of seminary professors pick this semester.

If I were a seminary student again and Logos did not carry my textbook, I might see if there was a Kindle version of the textbook that could be converted into a Logos Personal Book.

Why, when I went to seminary, Logos did not even publish... Logos!

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 3073
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2013 7:45 AM

SteveF:
Is it possible that this is a USA versus Canada difference?

Absolutely.

It would help if I remembered which institutions were in the USA (which I don't).  :-(

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 948
Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2013 11:03 AM

Just my .02:  I did my undergrad at Southeastern Baptist Theolgical Seminary in Wake Forest, NC and half my MDiv there.  I finsihed my MDiv online with Liberty.  I think there may have been around 20% of the books I needed for class on Logos.  Some is better than none, but still...would be nice to have them.  I am now going back and getting rid of hardcopies and opting for Logos books.  

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