Logos March Madness: No Women?

Yes I was surprised by the list.

A bit more diversity would be welcomed. 

[:)]

P A

Adam Rao said:

How about Adele Berlin, for example, whose JPS commentary on Esther would make a fine addition to anyone's library? Her work as an editor on the Jewish Study Bible could have been recognized with a discount on that fine resource, too.

Or, maybe Brigitte Kahl whose Galatians Reimagined is an outstanding reading of Galatians in the context of imperial Rome?

Or, perhaps Sharon Ringe, which could have led to discounts on the Women's Bible Commentary and the Westminster Bible Companion commentary set?

I agree with the thrust of your suggestion, although I'm not sure what it's got to do with conservative evangelicalism - there are many excellent women authors in that stream, including Karen Jobes and Joyce Baldwin.

But the March Madness discounts only apply to resources where the author is the sole author, which would mean only two resources from Adele Berlin, one from Brigitte Kahl, and none from Sharon Ringe. This may well have been one of the reasons they weren't included.

I'm not a chauvinist, but I'd say the level of scholarship on men's works is far more superior than that of women; so I'd rather have this whole March Madness be about men's titles than women's titles (since they're not that many or they're co-authored with a man anyway [;)] ).  Don't get me wrong, I own June Hunt's "Counseling Library" and other books written from a woman's perspective, but if anything, they should just do a "Woman's March Madness" for women only like those Base Packages for women only Logos has or used to have at some point (though I assume the competition would be very limited on choices).  Also, I'm almost certain that women's titles wouldn't make it out of the first round anyway, so you might as well just call sales any time of the year and they'll give you the same discount or better (or similar). [:D] [:P] [A] I know, I know, the point is to include our precious women who are devoted to God in this "competition" but I assume is a marketing or politics type of thing to allow for more profit to be generated during this special sale and other sales promoted by Logos.  So don't hate the players, hate the game or vice versa...or...I don't know, I should just keep quiet...LOL

DAL

Ps. To our beloved, faithful women authors and those women that want a sale on women's books -- Even though you were not included in this competition, WE STILL LOVE YOU AND APPRECIATE YOUR WORK! [Y]

I am wondering if anyone here or from Logos has a number of the available resources that are solely authored by a woman or co-authored. I assume it would have to be recent resources and probably a tiny percentage Of the total. 

Someday we we may begin to see more resources by women, but it will orobably be glacial. 

DAL, you're cracking me up!  Not to mention your interesting choice of words. Very apropo.

Gary Osborne said:

I vote for more theological diversity.  It seems like this year it's more about Hyper-Calvinism vs semi-Hyper Calvinism vs Reformed Theology vs partial TULIP theology.  The majority of it is weighted in the direction of one theological stream.  Being a conservative, but committed Pentecostal that certainly leans in the direction of Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal theology makes most of these matchups meaningless to me.

And for me as a Catholic it's even worse. Last year I could vote for Thomas a Kempis. This year the token Catholic is G. K. Chesterton, both figures who should and do appeal to many varieties of Protestants (and/including Anglicans). Don't get me wrong, Thomas a Kempis and G. K. Chesterton are great authors and I'm looking forward to the discounting of Chesterton's works later this spring, but...

DAL said:

I'm sorry (and you might think "where has this guy been?") but I've never heard of these ladies you've just mentioned.

Phylis Trible is a an American Baptist scholar of the Hebrew Bible who has written a couple books on stories that have been used to oppress women - namely God and the Rhetoric of Sexuality and Texts of Terror.  She takes them apart and shows how they actually say much more than they have often been read.  Her "best hits" are available in Logos, and I edited my post to include the link...  She has described her study as being like Jacob wrestling with the Angel - refusing to let go of these texts until she receives a blessing...

Catherine Mowry LaCugna taught theology at Notre Dame and wrote one of the classics of late 20th Century Trinitarian theology - God For Us.  While it does speak a bit about gender issues, this is hardly her main concern.  It is rather how the nature of the God we worship shapes our Christian life...  I almost cannot imagine it not being referenced in discussion of the Christian Doctrine of God...

Elizabeth Schuessler Fiorenza's magnum opus is In Memory of Her.  It is a take on the early church - including new testament witness, showing the influence of women on it.  The title is a reference to Mark 14:9, where the woman who anoints Jesus for burial has sadly even lost her name to history, in spite of being so lifted up by Jesus.

Elizabeth Johnson takes on the question of how the salvation of Women works in the classical Christological terms.  What does the Patristic maxim "Not Assumed - Not Redeemed" - so important for the 4th/5th century debates - mean for us today?  How has Jesus assumed WOMEN'S lives and experiences as well as men, so while a historical MALE, he is the "vere homo" we proclaim him to be and not just "vere aner".

They are all solid scholars, and of course, you need not agree with any of them.  But they deserve to be treated with respect, and their concerns and perspective is needed to hear how we are heard by many in the world today.

SDG

Ken McGuire

Dan Francis said:

straight white men seem to be the majority of those read in the North American Christian

"straight" ?  You're kidding, right? Should I assume you think there should be more willingness among North Americans to read from crooked authors, or homosexual authors? And should the authors be repentant crooks?

Excellent list, MJ. I would add Maryanne Meye Thompson and Beverly Gaventa to it as well.

Did I miss something, or is literally every single contestant an old white man?

Gary Osborne said:

I agree concerning diversity, but I wouldn't limit it to gender diversity.  I vote for more theological diversity.  It seems like this year it's more about Hyper-Calvinism vs semi-Hyper Calvinism vs Reformed Theology vs partial TULIP theology.  The majority of it is weighted in the direction of one theological stream.  Being a conservative, but committed Pentecostal that certainly leans in the direction of Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal theology makes most of these matchups meaningless to me.  And it's been that way for about as long as I've been with Logos.  But I know I'm in the minority and this isn't going to change, so I'll just take joy in the fact that my wallet will be happy at the end of the month. 

Petty much exactly my impression.  With the exception of Charles Wesley, those represented are almost exclusively leaning to the reformed/calvinist end of what should be a spectrum.

Phil, thanks for the response. Part of the problem is that Logos' selection of authors for March Madness pretty accurately reflects who has the strongest and most respected voices among conservative evangelicals. As it happens, and quite regrettably, that group is almost exclusively white and male. The Kingdom of God is far bigger and far more diverse than one would think by looking at most pastors' bookshelves. It's not Logos' fault, and frankly I wouldn't put the onus on them to become a leader in changing those attitudes.

I would certainly applaud them for picking up the cause though. Perhaps a blog post highlighting resources from the majority world, or from women, or from minority theologians?

Bruce Roth said:

I am wondering if anyone here or from Logos has a number of the available resources that are solely authored by a woman or co-authored. I assume it would have to be recent resources and probably a tiny percentage Of the total. 

Someday we we may begin to see more resources by women, but it will orobably be glacial. 

I'm not someone from Logos, but here (off the top of my head) is one Logos title written by a woman which I own and appreciate for its insights. It's one of the Paideia Commentaries on the New Testament: Mark by Mary Ann Beavis (Baker Academic, 2011).

Every blessing

Alan

Well, ignoring the title of the thread, I'd think most businesses would try to highlight any emerging markets they're seeking.  I'd have to assume, as Mark seems to hint, all those product managers you've been investing in must mean you're wanting to expand .... plus Verbum .... and so on.

It's hard for me to imagine you couldn't find many Catholic authors, but maybe they're hard to find these days.  On the female side (and here DAL will have to be quiet a minute) but I'd assume some of the more popular authors; you didn't seem to limit the choices to DAL's 'meaty' description but I suspect that was the primary requirement.  Readers enhance spirituality many ways; I thought that was the Logos 'call to arms'.

Phil Gons said:

Thanks for the feedback. There's no intentional gender discrimination going on here. These are the criteria we used:

1. The author has lots of books available in Logos that we are able to discount up to 75% off. (Customers are disappointed when we don't have many options to choose from for each author.)
2. The author's books are among our bestselling products. (We want to ensure the sale has books that most people are going to be interested in.)
3. We pick 32 living authors and 32 dead authors.

Using those criteria, we didn't end up with any women authors in the running this year (or previous years?). We didn't intentionally include or exclude any authors based on their gender, race, age, marital status, nationality, denomination, theological positions, or any other discriminating factor.

We're absolutely not opposed to including women authors, but we just don't have many with a wide selection of popular products.

Would you prefer that we use a different set of criteria for next year? Should we not be concerned about the number of books an author has in Logos (that we can discount up to 75% off)? Should we ignore how well an author's books sell? Our current thinking is that this would compromise the overall effectiveness of the sale, but we're certainly open to rethinking things.

Phil, 

This goes back to what I have been saying for years.  There should be more diversity among the resources that Logos sells.  There needs to be more resources written by women (Ken and MJ listed some great authors).  There needs to be larger theological diversity among the resources that Logos sells.

What you have listed here displays Logos' philosophy on what to sell. Currently, Logos sells what sells to its current user base.  And it doesn't sell what doesn't sell to its current user base.  The NIB is a good example (https://www.logos.com/product/8803/new-interpreters-bible).  Right now, Logos does not have the user base to move this resource into production.  And I personally do not know of a person in my theological circles who does not have at lest one volume on this series on his or her bookshelf.

It sounds like from your post (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/80659.aspx) that Logos wants to offer a "wide array of theological perspectives."  In order to do this, I believe Logos is going to have to take a gamble and produce some resources that they might not have enough customers to start off (like the NIB and authors like Elizabeth Schusessler Fiorenza).  Doing this I believe will expand your customer base.

Dan Francis said:

Dead (or live) straight white men seem to be the majority of those read in the North American Christian market. Because we are unfamiliar with other voices definitely  doesn't mean their voices are not important to be heard and often VERY important to hear. I hope one day more voices will be heard in the Logos Library.

-Dan

Phil,

As commented above the vast majority of resources are coming out of the reformed camp. Maybe in conjunction with the current mix you could offer the same type of March Madness sale on the Verbum side of the fence. And include resources from the growing Eastern Orthodox resources. 

Denise said:

  On the female side (and here DAL will have to be quiet a minute)

[:#] [O] [;)]

I'm sorry to be required to appear to be a male chauvinist pig, but I've noticed that when I encounter women authors on biblical topics they appear to almost exclusively deal with women in the bible and with such topics which really aren't very substantive.  There are some exceptions.  I'm sorry, but women appear to be mostly concerned with women—which I find rather cliquish.  When women start to sincerely engage in the substance of the texts rather than being concerned with how women appear, then I will take them seriously.

John Kaess said:

Gary Osborne said:

I agree concerning diversity, but I wouldn't limit it to gender diversity.  I vote for more theological diversity.  It seems like this year it's more about Hyper-Calvinism vs semi-Hyper Calvinism vs Reformed Theology vs partial TULIP theology.  The majority of it is weighted in the direction of one theological stream.  Being a conservative, but committed Pentecostal that certainly leans in the direction of Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal theology makes most of these matchups meaningless to me.  And it's been that way for about as long as I've been with Logos.  But I know I'm in the minority and this isn't going to change, so I'll just take joy in the fact that my wallet will be happy at the end of the month. 

Petty much exactly my impression.  With the exception of Charles Wesley, those represented are almost exclusively leaning to the reformed/calvinist end of what should be a spectrum.

Yep, and all I can do is let out a sigh.  It's not going to change.  I've discussed this issue with high up people in Logos in the past and I've come to just expect this going forward.  There are several highly important non-Reformed resources that Logos doesn't even carry yet (while other bible software companies do carry them) and I'm at a loss just scratching my head.  I'm told over and over again there's not a pro-Reformed/Calvinist lean, but my eyes tell me something completely different.

I certainly am not asking women to be there for the sake of them being there, but I think there are enough good women scholars that one or two might have made it in. Now since Phil has told us enough works with the ability to discount in the Logos system, it feels very justified that there were none, maybe in a few years there might be a female author in there.

-Dan

Dan Francis said:

We are all sinners saved by grace. Test what you read by scripture, hold on to the truth and discard the false. 

[Y]

MJ. Smith said:

I don't happen to be a fan of affirmative action

Me neither. Let all authors stand on merit.

Remember, 50% of all authors will fail in the first round and 75% by the second round. I have no idea how Logos decides who makes the cut for March Madness but I doubt they are trying to be "fair."  I also doubt any of the women authors mentioned thus far would make it past the second round. I would prefer a %off coupon sale on women authors.