Resource bug aka MJ may lose her temper

I was using this resource

John Chrysostom. Four Discourses of Chrysostom. Translated by F. Allen. London: Longmans, Green, Reader, and Dyer, 1869.

to see if I theory of mine would find all occurrences of a particular discourse in my library. So I tried to build the correct datatype link for the discourse and got:

[[Page 1 >> logosres:frdscrsschrysstm;ref=Page.p_1;off=12;ctx=DISCOURSE_I$0A~a_homily_delivered_at_antioc]]

as opposed to the NPNNFS where I get:

[[Homilies on the Gospel of St. Matthew 1.1 >> logosres:npnf10;ref=Chrysostom.Hom._Matt._1.1;off=0;ctx=HOMILY_I$0A~It_were_indeed_meet_for_us_not_]]

Am I correct that the resource is not tagged correctly to work with prioritization and resource neutral references? If I am, I am truly getting fed up with sloppy tagging that keep things from working correctly. Am I really better off using software that I can never trust or doing it manually (and correctly) the first time?

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Comments

MJ. Smith

I don't own all early church fathers books and my scan was sloppy and didn't include some anthologies I would expect to be coded. The following lack ECF reference tags:

John Chrysostom. Four Discourses of Chrysostom: Chiefly on the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Translated by F. Allen. London: Longmans, Green, Reader, and Dyer, 1869.

John Chrysostom. On Wealth and Poverty. Edited by John Behr. Translated by Catharine P. Roth. Popular Patristics Series, Number 9. Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1981.

John Chrysostom. Sermon on Alms. Translated by Margaret M. Sherwood. Vol. 10. Studies in Social Work. New York: The New York School of Philanthropy, 1917.

John Chrysostom. Four Discourses of Chrysostom. Translated by F. Allen. London: Longmans, Green, Reader, and Dyer, 1869.

Budge, Ernest A. Wallis, ed. The Paradise or Garden of the Holy Fathers. Vol. 1. London: Chatto & Windus, 1907.

Basil of Caesarea. On the Human Condition. Edited by John Behr and Augustine Casiday. Translated by Nonna Verna Harrison. Popular Patristics Series, Number 30. Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2005.

Basil of Caesarea. On Social Justice. Translated by C. Paul Schroeder. Popular Patristics Series, Number 38. New York: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2009.

Melito of Sardis. On Pascha: With the Fragments of Melito and Other Material Related to the Quartodecimans. Edited by John Behr. Translated by Alistair Stewart-Sykes. Popular Patristics Series, Number 20. Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2001.

Clarke, W. K. Lowther. The Lausiac History of Palladius. Translations of Christian Literature: Series I: Greek Texts. London; New York: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; The Macmillan Company, 1918.

Cyril of Jerusalem. Lectures on the Christian Sacraments: The Procatechesis and the Five Mystagogical Catecheses. Edited by F. L. Cross and John Behr. Popular Patristics Series, Number 2. Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1977.

Mason, A. J. Fifty Spiritual Homilies of St. Macarius the Egyptian. Translations of Christian Literature: Series I: Greek Texts. London; New York: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; The Macmillan Company, 1921.

Moore, Herbert. The Dialogue of Palladius Concerning the Life of Chrysostom. Edited by W. J. Sparrow Simpson and W. K. Lowther Clarke. Translations of Christian Literature: Series I: Greek Texts. London; New York: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge; The Macmillan Company, 1921.

Magnes, Macarius. The Apocriticus of Macarius Magnes. Edited by W. J. Sparrow Simpson and W. K. Lowther Clarke. Translated by T. W. Crafer. Translations of Christian Literature: Series I: Greek Texts. London; New York: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge;The Macmillan Company, 1919.

Abba Theodosius of Alexandria, Severus of Antioch, and Eustathius of Trake. Saint Michael the Archangel: Three Encomiums: The English Translation. Edited and translated by E. A. Wallis Budge. Vol. 1. London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trübner & Co., 1894.

Theodore of Mopsuestia. Theodore of Mopsuestia: The Commentaries on the Minor Epistles of Paul: Introduction and Translation. Translated by Rowan A. Greer. Atlanta, GA: Society of Biblical Literature, 2010.

Maloney, Edward R. with Basil of Caesarea. St. Basil the Great to Students on Greek Literature with Notes and Vocabulary. New York; Cincinnati; Chicago: American Book Company, 1901.

Athanasius of Alexandria. The Orations of S. Athanasius Against the Arians. London: Griffith, Farran, Okeden, & Welsh, 1893.

Venerable Bede. The Explanation of the Apocalypse. Translated by Edward Marshall. Oxford: James Parker and Co., 1878.

Dositheus, Patriarch of Jerusalem. The Acts and Decrees of the Synod of Jerusalem. Edited by J. J. Overbeck. Translated by J. N. W. B. Robertson. London: Thomas Baker, 1899.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

Am I correct that the resource is not tagged correctly

Resource Info for Four Discourses of Chrysostom (LLS:FRDSCRSSCHRYSSTM) shows that it only has a Page index.

I'm not very familiar with the works of John Chrysostom, but a quick look at our "chrysostom" data type seems to indicate that it doesn't have the capability of referring to these four discourses. We may need to extend the data type to represent more of his works before this can be tagged.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609939#Comment_609939

The following lack ECF reference tags

I will create a suggestion.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609977#Comment_609977

We may need to extend the data type to represent more of his works before this can be tagged.

I made the assumption when Logos said it tagged the early church fathers that the scheme would handle everything in Migne as his collections (in Logos pre-pub or community pricing) are the gold standard despite needing a bit of updating. I suspect that would be the common assumption so I am disappointed that users have to bring it to Logos' attention. After all we pay a premium for the tagging [:(]

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609984#Comment_609984

After all we pay a premium for the tagging

That's something Marketing seems a lot more concerned about than [Text] Development.[6]

Louis St. Hilaire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609984#Comment_609984

I made the assumption when Logos said it tagged the early church fathers that the scheme would handle everything in Migne as his collections (in Logos pre-pub or community pricing) are the gold standard despite needing a bit of updating. I suspect that would be the common assumption so I am disappointed that users have to bring it to Logos' attention. After all we pay a premium for the tagging

I'm flattered that you think we're capable of this[:)], but I don't think there's a single scheme that could be used to handle all patristic references. The closest thing would be Migne columns, but most translations don't include them and most references we encounter don't use them. To support these reference schemes natively, we have to make a distinct data type for each father, modeling the collection of works we want to support and their structure.

We've built that up for the major fathers and major works over the last five years or so, but there's still a ways to go. Creating new data types and training the tagging team to use them can require a lot of work (adding significant delays to any pre-pub that requires a new or updated data type), so we try to prioritize things that are most commonly cited or essential for basic resource functionality (e.g. bilingual editions that need to scroll together). Consequently, there are still some gaps like this.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610114#Comment_610114

Thanks Louis. It is unfortunate that new data types can't be produced easily as new resources are released. From a user's perspective I am paying a premium for tagging to work with Logos features that should make my life much easier only to be stymied by:

missing tags required for features to work
remnants of old coding schemes that divide results
metadata or flags that interfere with the feature
using manual efforts to find what Logos doesn't because of the above problems

Fortunately some of these like the cross-references are easily fixed and have been taken care of quickly. Others such as sermon coding are in the works and problems have been handled quickly (except that sermon date is picking up only secular date not liturgical date).

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610134#Comment_610134

I would love to have every reference linked to an appropriate datatype in my library. But there is not any consistent style to cite everything, as Louis has pointed out.

But MJ has a very good point. I know I was quite frustrated when the Athanasius translations (many of which she lists above) were not tagged as a target for the Athanasius type - especially since there IS a standard way to cite On the Incarnation and Orations -- Heck --- they even existed already in Logos. To put it mildly, there is a disconnect between what some of us Users expect and what Logos delivers in this area.

The problem is that we can not trust results of our searches at times because of this. I know to do this as completely as I dream, would probably be impossible, and would definitely be unmanageable for Logos.

I am reminded of a somewhat frustrating lesson in school - a lecture on how to use Nestle-Aland, drumming in the "consistently cited witnesses". It is a way for the NA apparatus tell as much as possible in as little space as possible. Very dry, but also vital for scholarly work.

What Logos needs is some source so we know what IS linked and what IS NOT, and in what resources. That way results we find from searches would be much more valuable for research.

SDG

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610205#Comment_610205

But there is not any consistent style to cite everything,

True, but it's not hard to define rules creating the necessary data types when they occur in a resource rather than when a user complains. [8-)]

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610114#Comment_610114

Hi Louis,

We've built that up for the major fathers and major works over the last five years or so, but there's still a ways to go. Creating new data types and training the tagging team to use them can require a lot of work (adding significant delays to any pre-pub that requires a new or updated data type), so we try to prioritize things that are most commonly cited or essential for basic resource functionality (e.g. bilingual editions that need to scroll together). Consequently, there are still some gaps like this.

I fully understand your position. But please try to see the world from our side. We buy into the idea that the linking of the resources in a large library is the real worth of Logos. We get that a resource with "Logos-quality tagging" is more expensive than a simple ebook just because of this - and we keep paying for stuff which might otherwise be free just for this reason.

But then you take a book like https://www.logos.com/product/43220/christian-apologetics-past-and-present-a-primary-source-reader-volume-1-to-1500 which used to be a Vyrso resource and put it on Logos. The price triples - and it still only has a page index! The current Logos version has zero additional functionality over the Vyrso book. (I personally don't want to complain: I bought the Vyrso edition and got what I paid for. The Logos edition was free for me).

This is an anthology of material that most of us for the most part already have in various editions. The frustrating point is that especially a thematic anthology would be a showcase for the Logos link-web worth: we could compare translations, read the snippets of text in the original author's context, read in parallel flowing tabs and thus see notes etc. we made to the same text in other editions.

We discussed this book four weeks ago when MJ found that there is no index for Aristides (one of the gaps you mentioned above). But most of the other ECF and doctors of the church works cited do have indexes.

Your argument would hold (somewhat) true if the book had only those texts tagged where you already have a datatype. Sorry Aristides, wait for a free resource update in a couple of years, but hey, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Athanasius, Augustine, Anselm, and Thomas Aquinas! But taking it over from Vyrso to Logos - with the accompanying price tag - should include applying at least the existing datatypes. With making this a Logos resource you raise not only the price and the cut you can make from it, but also the user's expectations on interoperability.

As I said, the appropriate tagging could make books like these showcases for the value Logos creates, and that will grow exponentially with a larger Logos library. With page index only.... :-(

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610208#Comment_610208

But there is not any consistent style to cite everything,

True, but it's not hard to define rules creating the necessary data types when they occur in a resource rather than when a user complains.

Agreed. My whole post was largely meant to be an acknowledgement of Logos's difficulties, but then a tag on to your concerns, MJ. It is well past time for Logos marketing to include a bit more in specifics - like what indexes resources have, and some information about what is keylinked...

And it is well past time for, well - some more intention and clarity in these datatypes. Anyone who has done ANY programming knows that it is easier to design your system if you figure this out early in the cycle (although extending them in today's object oriented world is easier than when I was in school.)

Some are (near?) useless. (eg. what really is the advantage of having a separate datatype for volume and page of the English TDNT? Yes, it exists in other languages, but if you were to have something like this between languages, you would use for the original German.)

And yes, Logos is much better at this now than when I got Libronix a dozen years ago, with all the Author types. But is is beyond disappointing when resources - especially like the Popular Patristics resources MJ mentioned - are not included.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/610303#Comment_610303

Speaking of the book, "Four Discourses of Chrysostom" It seems we have two copies in our library that have the same book cover and contents. But the formatting is slightly different. Question is, which one should I hide or will both be updated in the future the same?

LLS:FRDISCHRYSOSTOM2013-02-11T20:59:22ZFRDISCHRYSOSTOM.logos4

LLS:FRDSCRSSCHRYSSTM2014-02-28T17:55:53ZFRDSCRSSCHRYSSTM.logos4

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/609984#Comment_609984

I made the assumption when Logos said it tagged the early church fathers that the scheme would handle everything in Migne

Maybe Logos was not referring to Migne but to Schaff's Early Church Fathers (the Bronze standard?)

SineNomine

Louis, my understanding of all newly published Logos books is this: if new books aren't tagged to the present standard of tagging resources, then Logos hasn't finished the production/publication process.

Louis, is there anything wrong with my understanding?