Logos Proclaim and Linux
I hope that this post will not go "unheard," from Logos development for Proclaim. I'll make this as short as I can. It seems that when a company becomes self sufficient and profitable they can at times forget the very reason for their existence. Logos and Proclaim were created to bring resources to Pastors and their Churches. Now when we keep this in mind, I believe that Logos Inc. has forgotten what the "MAJORITY" of churches are. And that is "Small Church's." Across the United States the average size of the majority of churches is under 100.
As small churches, resources are tight and they must find a way to accomplish things as inexpensive as possible. Most of these church use older computers and laptops simply because it's all that they can afford. These older machines run extremely fast under the Linux operating system and run most of the software needed by the church. Proclaim on a Linux machine would be an answer to prayer for so many, the majority of church's across the United States.
I simply ask that Logos Proclaim remember this when they continually say that there are no plans for any linux development. Why? Why when the majority of church are under 100? Why when it would tremendously benefit the church, the small church, the majority of the churches who don't have the resources to purchase new equipment and must depend on older used and donated equipment. Yet Logos Proclaim perhaps unknowingly is catering to the larger more profitable church's who can easily afford the resources needed to run the proclaim on the other two platforms.
I know that this has been requested time and time again, I just thought I'd do it again from a perspective that perhaps Logos has forgotten about due to their profitability. Please remember the majority of the church's who you are failing to reach due to limited resources.
Sincerely
Peter
Comments
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Hi Peter,
I'm a fan of Linux, and we've run it in our church office and in the A/V room, but I have two questions:
- Do you have any data on how many small churches are running Linux? It seems to me getting a significant number of churches to even run Linux would be the first hurdle.
- Related, could a low end computer (even running Linux) handle Proclaim? Regardless of OS, the Proclaim FAQ says, "Proclaim was written to take advantage of the latest technology and will run best on a newer computer. If your computer is running an older operating system, performance may be sluggish."
One final thought: I would suggest churches running Linux to consider OpenLP or OpenSong. We've used the latter for nearly a decade and, combined with a Dropbox sync, found it to be very useful in a collaborative environment.
0 - Do you have any data on how many small churches are running Linux? It seems to me getting a significant number of churches to even run Linux would be the first hurdle.
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Peter Steinbach said:
I simply ask that Logos Proclaim remember this when they continually say that there are no plans for any linux development. Why? Why when the majority of church are under 100?
Just to give an alternative perspective:
I'm a pastor of a church under 100. We don't us Proclaim because: 1) We have no internet access at the worship site (can't afford it & would rarely use it anyway); 2) We have no need for collaboration in building the video projection set (I do it all); 3) We are now using a program that, as far as I know, doesn't import into Proclaim, meaning we'd have to redo our entire repertoire from scratch; 4) We're happy with the program we're using now (which is paid for); 5) We really can't afford $200/yr subscription fee. (BTW, we have a 5 year old projection computer that meets/exceeds the minimum specs for Proclaim & I'm a huge fan of Logos.)
While you suggest that Logos is not addressing the needs of smaller churches with Proclaim, I think you could have a point, but for us the issue is the program design, and the subscription pricing model (not the choices for OS). It's not made nor priced for us. (I know of at least one church that loves it, but they are larger, do build their sets collaboratively, and have internet capabilities at their worship site.)
As far as porting or rebuilding Proclaim for Linux, it would be helpful to know how many churches under 100 1) have a video projection system, and 2) use Linux. If it's anywhere near the approximate 1.2% of market share (I know this is somewhat debatable), then it would not be a wise investment of Logos' time (IMHO). In our small church of less than 100, I know of no one that uses Linux. Almost all our members have computers that use some version of Windows (a few have Macs).
Just a different perspective. (I am withholding my opinion about Linux as an OS for churches - since it's probably not something to debate here.)
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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A major point is how many of those smaller churches WANT what proclaim has to offer. I appreciate what proclaim is and see it's value. That said I have a strong distaste for projection during a service. Even my mother-in-laws catholic parish uses one (only for the occasional song not in their hymnal) and it feels disruptive to the service. I have seen churches with tight integration of media and to me it feels inappropriate. I personally would not worship in such a setting. I am not a ludite, but I do believe technology has it place. For those who want/need projection systems to offer a multimedia experience, I am glad you have proclaim. But there are many of us who long for simplicity in our worship, my church in Calgary where I worship recently did a massive renovation. I am not a big fan of St. Stephen's modern/post modern look, but I am thankful that since the congregation surrounds the altar we will never have to worry about a projection system. In our traditional configuration there had been times guest speakers had brought in AV systems, and for slides videos i do understand their value, I just do not see their need for day to day worship of the living God. I say these things not to start a debate on the merits of Proclaim, just to remind people that a multimedia worship is not for everyone.
-Dan
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Peter Steinbach said:
I hope that this post will not go "unheard,"
We hear you, but we're not going to be able to offer Proclaim for Linux any time soon. While Linux is 'winning the war' for the server, it just hasn't made much progress on the consumer desktop. Proclaim is not as profitable as you imagine as its own project, and it's already incredibly difficult to get it behaving exactly the same on Mac and Windows; adding another complete implementation that needs to be kept in sync is simply unaffordable.
I think you're more likely to see web-based access to some of its features than a dedicated Linux client.
We did, however, design for small churches -- and Proclaim has been very successful with the average size church (around 90 people in the US). Windows laptops are cheap and plentiful; sometimes a church doesn't even have a dedicated computer, and just projects from a laptop someone brings on Sunday (more likely to be Windows or Mac than Linux). While many churches don't have WiFi, more and more do all the time, and even where they don't Internet access is often available via a tethered cell phone -- and Proclaim works offline if you sync the presentation on the laptop before bringing it to church.
Over time we'll try to expand our support and the list of scenarios we're well suited-to. I'm sorry we don't meet your needs right now.
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I am a Pastor of a church that is right at the 100 people mark. We use Proclaim in our weekly worship and for teaching on occasions. I love the program, but, man it would be awesome if it loaded on linux, even with wine.
Also I am required to buy Logos for an advance Degree I will be starting the beginning of next year. I run linux on all my personal machines..... Windows just open sourced Net. two weeks ago. There is no reason why a wine script could not be developed to run Logos on Linux. All you have to do is call up Codeweaver and give them some info when Net is released.
Also linux has more of the desktop than you think, not in the US but on a global platform.
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We use WPF for our display layer, and as far as I know there's no way to use that on Linux, and it wasn't part of what was open sourced.
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"Desktop" is a funny word though since anymore that category almost gets conflated with laptops and notebooks. And depending on the quarter and what you're reading, ChromeOS has overtaken MacOS. I can install pretty much any Linux app on my son's low spec (though not budget), 4-year-old Chromebook. I totally hear what you're saying and am not criticizing. But between Android, ChromeOS ,WSL (and have you run Pop!_OS??), Linux has won far more than the server space. There are some good dudes doing the Lord's work getting Logos running via WINE (definitely reformed). Would Faithlife ever consider yielding some clock time for employees to work on that sort of project? I don't know the inner workings, but I'm guessing some of the big hiccups would cross over between the two apps.
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Have you read Linux version of Logos Bible Software - Faithlife Forums? Users do have Logos up on Wine you are replying to a post made 8 years ago.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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And just FYI, we (volunteers) are getting started on wine compatibility for Proclaim too but it will take a while.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Chris Schwab said:
There are some good dudes doing the Lord's work getting Logos running via WINE (definitely reformed). Would Faithlife ever consider yielding some clock time for employees to work on that sort of project? I don't know the inner workings, but I'm guessing some of the big hiccups would cross over between the two apps.
I just wanted to address that we have had the blessing of quite a lot of support via questions answered, input on what is seen in error logs, etc from the Faithlife Development Team - We are very thankful for the insight they provide to us.
In relation to Proclaim, as John alluded to - there may be some effort coming from the group of volunteers on seeing how Proclaim currently functions in Wine and what may be needed to get it functioning through Wine.I'm going to be honest in regard to that project, I may try to help a little here and there - my primary effort will be to continue on the course of getting Logos 10 to a Platinum Rating on WineHQ. We still have some annoying bugs in L10 and now that the Public Release has occurred, we can get the bugs and logs posted for WineHQ Developer input/work.
By God's Grace, we will be able to see L10 fully functional and add Proclaim to that, as I do believe that the Linux potential is underestimated.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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You don't have to write proclaim for linux... just help the wine team create a wine bottle for proclaim... relatively this would be a insignificant amount of time to do and you would pick up the small percentage of us using linux.
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Nobody is writing proclaim for Linux. We are working on wine compatibility and it will not be insignificant... Getting Logos to work was thousands of volunteer hours.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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