Important Feature - Internet
One of the most important features of Logos is that you do not need to be connected to the internet to make it work. So many technology people tell me that the Internet is available everywhere. Come visit my 1000 member church. There is no internet or cell phone coverage in many places in the church including the library and the adult Sunday school wing. Come on vacation with me in the mountains of NC.
I approve of Internet access for updates and back-up but not for regular use. I am "scared to death" that Logos will become a tablet application residing in the cloud.
Ministry happens where we are, not where the Internet is.
Comments
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Cousin Charlie,
Yes!!
I use L5 (will be L6 soon) at a remote location I access each week by bike. No internet.
The laptop only feels the warm buzz of the net when it comes to the city for holidays.
Stephen Miller
Sydney, Australia
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I agree that Logos should not require the internet but at the same time I'd hate to have features omitted solely because they require internet. The key is in keeping a balance.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Charles C.G. Miller said:
Ministry happens where we are, not where the Internet is.
Great quote!
Yes, I too worry about the creep towards more and more internet-dependent features. I am guessing that some of these could be implemented in such a way that doesn't require the internet, though I suspect others could not (without downloading gobs of data to all our of PCs for the few people that might use the feature). For example, the "Visual Copy" feature requires internet connectivity. That is because it needs access to a large library of visual art. There would be no point in downloading all of that visual art to millions of computers for the percentage of users who would use that feature (people who need to do presentations and who want to make some of their slides out of Bible verses and other quotes they find in their Logos Library). The workaround in the case of that feature is to buy a professional presentation package such as PowerPoint and make your own slides that way (not Logos's Proclaim, because it also requires internet use).
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Is there even a list of such features? I didn't realize visual copy (not that I really intend to use it anyway) was specifically tied to the Internet. But I'm going to be really upset when I'm in some locale without solid internet access (Greenland, for instance), and Logos won't work. This all ties back to Bob's conviction that the cloud is the future -- and my conviction that the cloud will eventually be cut down to size in real terms, once people realize the privacy and other things they're giving up.
Russ
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Much of my work is in non-internet accessible areas. So far this not problem, but if we slide a lot farther....
Having functions that access the internet is probably fine. Just be sure the primary functions always work offline. I'd hate to think how much I have invested if that should change. I trust it won't.
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Charles C.G. Miller said:
Come on vacation with me in the mountains of NC.
Ready when you are!!! [:P]
We recently relocated to a church within the town we live that did not have great cell reception for my phone carrier. While I still use the iPhone app on occassion, i now rely much more heavily on my paper Bible and have adopted an "I'll note that and look it up when I get home" approach.
...more recently I've discovered the "Guest" wi-fi... [:D]
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Gao Lu said:
Just be sure the primary functions always work offline. I'd hate to think how much I have invested if that should change. I trust it won't.
I think this will be the key going forward. Logos should have primary functions (like reading, searching, notetaking etc.) that will work offline all the time.
But the concept of the 'cloud-connected' application is not going away. In fact, in many developing countries in Asia and Africa, the deployment of the Internet is overtaking a) the rise in income levels b) the availability of high-powered computers to run complex applications like Logos and Photoshop offline.
Imagine the potential for a missionary in India to access the full power of Logos on a cheap Chromebook, and for Bible Schools in those places to hand cheap tablets and laptops out to students.
The cloud has issues granted, but these issues are not new. In fact, the Internet might be bringing things to the surface that have always been there.
1) Privacy - This is the major issue today but now there is a conversation around it and surveillance. There was news today that the US Postal Service has been scanning mail in volumes never thought of before.
2) Security - There will never be 100% protection against malicious actors but things will get better. The biggest barrier to security is convenience. For example, I work in the payments industry and it is astounding to me that the US still uses so many checks (prone to fraud on an epic scale) and non-pin credit cards. The recent hacking scares have accelerated movement away from these.
Similarly, we need to get away from the password too and there is a lot of potential developments in this space.
Long story short, I hope Logos continues to be a successful product for years to come, and given recent trends, some movement toward the cloud is inevitable (in my humble opinion.)
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Thank you all for the support and confidence you have provided to me on this issue. Your comments on balance between local features and features that need Internet access are reasonable. It is my hope that when the Internet is integrated into the design of the feature, the results of that feature could be saved and accessed off line. In Excel, when I include an external spreadsheet in a calculation and that external information is not available to the spreadsheet, the spreadsheet continues to work but cannot update that number so it assumes that it has not changed. I hope that if the feature is a graphic database, that information could be selected on line and used off line. I hope that a search like feature powered by on line information would allow the results to be saved and the saved search viewed and used to access resources off line.
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But, what about an optional server-based version of Logos.
Imagine ...
— no massive downloads
— no hours of indexing
— the full Logos 6 experience on a tablet
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A list of features that require the internet would be a good thing to have. Another useful thing would be to have those features color coded or pinked-out when there is no Internet connection.
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Jonathan Pitts said:
But, what about an optional server-based version of Logos.
Imagine ...
— no massive downloads
— no hours of indexing
— the full Logos 6 experience on a tablet
If we can support both versions I would agree. Some will say you just described Google but I would not agree with that assessment.0 -
I agree with Jonathan. And Charles. A sizable portion of our travels is internet-free. But as a result, we mainly use cellular with its download limitations.
And so, the mobile form of Logos works great. Pick and choose what is needed; don't need the whole caboodle. And even better, no major L4/L5/L6 stuff.
Overall, I'd think the key is for Logos to be up-front on what is internet-driven vs not. People can then value the value. But judging from Proclaim and Faithlife, Logos' heart in on the internet.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Charles C.G. Miller said:
A list of features that require the internet would be a good thing to have
Here it is:
- Atlas
- Community Tags
- Visual Copy
- Ask the Author
- Groups
- Wikipedia
- Books.logos.com search
- Online Manuscripts
- Logos Media Library
- Online media
- Home Page Blogs
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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This is a great discussion and a great reminder that not everyone has internet access all the time. We try to strike a balance with features that require internet and those that don't and in some cases the feature will not work offline initially but has the capability of working offline.
Here are some of my thoughts on the features listed by Mark.
Atlas - The new maps are quickly approaching terabytes of data. It would not be practical (or desired) to download that content to every users machine. However, we do cache the metadata for every map the user owns and the recently viewed zoom levels (we call them tiles) to the users computer. If you go offline passage guide and other features will tell you that you have a map, but you may not be able to load the map if you haven't viewed it recently. We even evaluated a few options of pre-downloading some of the maps so users would have a good out of the box offline experience, but decided to wait and see if that will be needed based on user feedback.
Community Tags - The nature of this data is online and would also be very large to download. We also had the difficulty deciding if we downloaded it how often would people want it downloaded. Some people may not like this feature and would we need to add a way for those people to turn it off completely? We landed on leaving this one as online only.
Visual Copy - This feature takes advantage of online templates that don't have to be stored on the application as well as the technology of Proclaim to render slides. We didn't want to completely integrate Proclaim into the application and didn't want to require users to have Proclaim installed to use it. As we gauge the popularity of this feature all of the decisions may be revisited.
Ask the Author - The nature of this feature is online only. We could possibly queue up your question offline, but the complexity was enough that we didn't even consider offline support.
Groups - Very similar to Ask the Author.
Wikipedia - After you view a Wikipedia article the article should be viewable offline.
Books.logos.com search - You can download and integrate books into Library search for offline use.
Online Manuscripts - This isn't our content so it will only work online.
Logos Media Library - There are a large number of images provided by this library. Storing all of the images, videos, handouts, etc. on your computer in the possibility you might use them someday would be a tough sell.
Online media - This is media on external sites so it makes sense to keep online only.
Home Page Blogs - Home page works offline, but you need to be online to get the blogs. I think this is the right balance.
Overall I think we made reasonable decisions when striking a balance for each feature online and offline; however, we may have missed the mark somewhere. Your feedback on the features that we missed the mark on is invaluable, so please keep the feedback coming.
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Todd White (Faithlife) said:
Online Manuscripts - This isn't our content so it will only work offline.
Now this is an unexpected statement. I assume you meant to say "online" .
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Todd White (Faithlife) said:
Online Manuscripts - This isn't our content so it will only work offline.
Now this is an unexpected statement. I assume you meant to say "online" .
Indeed. Corrected.
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Thank you for this information it is a great help. It is logical and well explained that some features need to be connected to the Internet to work for valid reasons that you provide.
If I may, I would also like to point out that it emphasizes the problem I want to avoid. Your information is technically rich and valuable but it fails to touch the needs of the user (me). Because I am not a Logos 6 user yet, I cannot give your real life examples. Please allow me to speak conceptually about the solution to my issue.
In your description of the Atlas feature you make the Internet access a valuable feature I would want. However, You say, "If you go offline [the] passage guide and other features will tell you that you have a map, but you may not be able to load the map if you haven't viewed it recently." This makes me think that the information might be stored in a cache for some undefined period of time. Now imagine that you are creating a series of lessons for a Bible study to be held over the next two months. I would like to save that map for viewing during the Bible Study even if I lose the ability to manipulate it. I would rather see it inside Logos than use PowerPoint.
Features like Wikipedia, online media, and online manuscripts fall into this category of features that I would like to see (but not search) while offline.
Moving on to an imaginary feature for an example of the functionality I suggest. If I performed a search of my resources (maybe a Passage Guide search) that involved or included some online computation, I would like to store the results of that search and be able to recall those results. I would like to be able to chose my resources in the search results and bring them to the screen to read or share. Perhaps any "unavailable" resources could be grayed-out.
Also, menu choices that require Internet connectivity could be grayed-out or "pinked-out" so we would know why the feature is unavailable.
I hope that this clarifies my concern that wherever possible Logos information be made available for display and use (to the extent possible) while not connected to the Internet based on the concept of leading a group Bible study while offline after doing the preparation online.
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Hi, Todd
My name is Ragnheðin and I have been a Logos user for a year or so
Since I am in merchant marine, and can’t be online all the time (need Logos to work offline) I get a bit worry about what is happening, that some features in Logos 6, need an online connection to work.
I have a lot of money invested in Logos, and a lot of pre pup order coming my way.
Can you pls. promise me, that I can use Logos software, regardless of the number 5,6,7, etc. offline in the future, and that you won’t go to a cloud based software, and I don't have to bail out?
Sincerely
Ragnheðin Ryggstein
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Ragnheðin Ryggstein said:
Can you pls. promise me, that I can use Logos software, regardless of the number 5,6,7, etc. offline in the future, and that you won’t go to a cloud based software, and I don't have to bail out?
Sorry, but we can't promise anything about future versions of the software. (Mostly because we can't predict the future.)
However, the offline features of Logos 6 will keep working with your current library as long as you as you want to run it. (You may have to run Logos 6 in a Windows 8.1 VM if future versions of Windows are not compatible with Logos 6, or if Microsoft goes bankrupt, or if Linux takes over the desktop, or ...)
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Hi, Bradley
I know, that we can't predict the future, and that is not what i mean, but i need to know, if i can use all my resources "offline" always! and that I can use the features with the software offline always, that was what was I was told before I bought the software in the first place...............https://community.logos.com/forums/t/80198.aspx?PageIndex=1
can you promise me that, or is your policy changed, since then?
Regards
Ragnheðin
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I am not at all happy with this direction. If I remember correctly, in the past Logos had floated the idea of doing "online" Logos, and I thought that most of us did not want it. I am still in that camp. I want to have my resources on my computer, where I am not dependent on internet access. Traveling overseas and teaching in other countries, one knows better than to be dependent on the availability of internet service. This is NOT good.
Charlene
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Our goal is to allow as much offline use as is practical. In the case of the Atlas, because we support zoom levels on hundreds (coming) of maps, it would take terabytes of hard drive space to store them offline. We DO store all the maps from Logos 5 offline, and many others in the resources. And we cache the new Atlas maps you've looked at up to some space limitation.
Books.Logos.com is another example -- the data for all those book page images is over 12 terabytes. I don't have that kind of hard drive space, and I doubt you do either.
So when we introduce Internet only features, it's usually not a choice to prefer online to offline -- it's because we're offering you something so big it couldn't be offline on most users' machines. If we decided to 'only do things offline' then we'd simply have to cut these features.
So we try to compromise -- to offer the best tools we can for offline use, supplemented by massive online databases.
(In some cases, like Community Tags, we access them online because they are by definition community-based, and huge, and need to be up-to-date to avoid duplicate tagging, etc.)
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Ragnheðin Ryggstein said:
I know, that we can't predict the future, and that is not what i mean, but i need to know, if i can use all my resources "offline" always!
The resources available today that download to your computer (e.g., Logos & Vyrso books, but not Atlas, Visual Copy, streaming books.logos.com or video resources, etc.) can be used offline indefinitely with the current version of the software. Newer resources may eventually require a newer version of Logos, or an Internet connection. (Like I said, we can't predict the future.) But today's resources with today's software can be used offline.
Ragnheðin Ryggstein said:and that I can use the features with the software offline always, that was what was I was told before I bought the software in the first place...............https://community.logos.com/forums/t/80198.aspx?PageIndex=1
Offline-only features can be used offline. (I didn't find a quote in that thread that said all features can be used "with the software offline always".)
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Hi, Bob
It is ok you don't have to go so deep into it, and i understand the issue you have, but this is NOT my question, and no one seems to answer me directly back with YES or NO
I try again, so pleas don't get mad at me and my questions
I need to know, if i can use all MY resources "offline" always! and that I can use the features with the software offline always, that was what was told to me before I bought the software in the first place..
when i say "The features with the software offline always" I mean of cause "the main" features, such as, in Logos 5, BUT the software and MY resources, witch I have bought are on MY computer for offline use ALWAYS.
you know, I was promised, that I could put Logos in my testament for my Children to inherit, and that I would NEVER loos any resources, and that the resources, were not just a licence, like a regular book, but that they were totally mine to do with as I choosed, so you see the problem I am having with this!
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This issue seems to come up every so often.
I also want to be able to access Logos offline.
I understand Bob's point about specific resources (maps, etc) needing to be online, but I hope Logos continues to have offline capability. Access to my books, highlighting, note taking, word studies, etc,, it's important to me that these features always be usable without the Internet.
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Ragnheðin Ryggstein said:
I believe that you are asking an unanswerable question when you say "always" as no one knows with accuracy the future of electronic devices and therefore what hardware Bob will have to build for. I, for one, would get concerned if Bob made architectural promise for two decades ahead. We have been told many times that Faithlife understands the need for offline access and intends to offer it for the foreseeable future.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I dont want to seem disrespectful. I am not and I totally understand your concern.
But you are making one main assumption here. That you have a computer, which you use, which will continue functioning in perpetuity (or atleast for a long time.) Logos exists on that computer. Faithlife has confirmed that all existing Logos resources (apart from things that take terabytes of data like the new maps) will continue to function offline, along with any functionality that can be achieved solely on your computer in Logos 5/6 (main features like searching, note-taking and so on.)
But what if your computer crashes and wipes everything off? At that point, the Faithlife model is a life-saver.
The only way to achieve what you wish is to continually take backups of your computer, every day, and store that backup safely. At that point, you have a fully recoverable installation of Logos (and anything else you desire) that you can restore offline and pass on as an asset to anyone you wish.
Also, if a hypothetical Logos 10 went to an online model, you would still have the Logos 5/6 to use forever.
Blessings
Ragnheðin Ryggstein said:Hi, Bob
It is ok you don't have to go so deep into it, and i understand the issue you have, but this is NOT my question, and no one seems to answer me directly back with YES or NO
I try again, so pleas don't get mad at me and my questions
I need to know, if i can use all MY resources "offline" always! and that I can use the features with the software offline always, that was what was told to me before I bought the software in the first place..
when i say "The features with the software offline always" I mean of cause "the main" features, such as, in Logos 5, BUT the software and MY resources, witch I have bought are on MY computer for offline use ALWAYS.
you know, I was promised, that I could put Logos in my testament for my Children to inherit, and that I would NEVER loos any resources, and that the resources, were not just a licence, like a regular book, but that they were totally mine to do with as I choosed, so you see the problem I am having with this!
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Hi Bradley
But today's resources with today's software can be used offline.
So if I stay with Logos 5, I can use "logos 5" the way I did before I upgraded, i.e. offline?
If that is the case I might just as well go back to Logos 5, and enjoy my Portfolio and my other resources, because FGH said to me:
Ragnhedin Ryggstein:So if i would buy "Portfolio" i would have a life long access to all material, books etc.Yes, and you can also put it in your will.
And this I can do in to the future... and also my children etc.
parhaps I am asking a question that there is no answer to, i don't know..... my brain is too small, to grasp is, but if i loos the ability to use my resources with Logos, I have wasted a lot of money, I could have used somewhere else.
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Ragnheðin Ryggstein said:
But today's resources with today's software can be used offline.
So if I stay with Logos 5, I can use "logos 5" the way I did before I upgraded, i.e. offline?
If that is the case I might just as well go back to Logos 5, and enjoy my Portfolio and my other resources
Ragnhedin,
I think, with "today's resources" Bradley meant Logos 6, not 5.
What works offline in L5 also works offline in L6, it's only a limited set of the new features (which - given the explanations above - make no sense offline) that require internet access. So I think there's no need to worry. Maybe some years down the road at another large upgrade the question will come up again - under possibly very different conditions for most of us.
That's my take on it.
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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Ragnheðin Ryggstein said:
So if I stay with Logos 5, I can use "logos 5" the way I did before I upgraded, i.e. offline?
Yes, you can continue using Logos 5 offline. As other posters have pointed out, you need to have a computer that can run it. Logos 5 may stop working on Windows 15 in 2024. Or maybe we'll all be using Linux. You may end up needing to have a virtual Windows 8.1 machine that you can keep running Logos 5 on. Additionally, you'll need to be responsible for backing up and restoring this computer; it's quite possible that Logos 5 may no longer be able to connect to "the cloud" to download your resources and documents in 20 years.
Ragnheðin Ryggstein said:If that is the case I might just as well go back to Logos 5, and enjoy my Portfolio and my other resources, because FGH said to me
I don't understand this. Most of the features of Logos 6 work great offline, plus it adds great new offline features (Factbook, search, guide sections, and many more, plus it includes bug fixes and performance improvements).
Look at the new resources and features you get in the upgrade/crossgrade. Decide which ones are useful to you (you can ignore all the online features if you want). Then decide if it's worth the price; I think you'll find that all our upgrades are a great value, even if you remove all of the online features.
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Thanks Mick for your answer
So you say, I should trust Logos, and stay with Logos 6, is that it?
what if they go to the cloud? I can't use that to anything, I am at sea 200 - 210 days a year (offline)
Take care
Ragnheðin
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Thank you Bradley fore your answer
But why, was I told, that my children could inherit it, if it might not be functioning on Windows 15 or 2024? it does not make any seance to me!
Kind regards
Ragnheðin
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Ragnheðin Ryggstein said:
Thank you Bradley fore your answer
But why, was I told, that my children could inherit it, if it might not be functioning on Windows 15 or 2024? it does not make any seance to me!
Kind regards
Ragnheðin
I think that whoever told you that was thinking that your children might not be at sea 200-215 days a year and might have occasional access to the internet.[:)]
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Ragnheðin Ryggstein said:
But why, was I told, that my children could inherit it, if it might not be functioning on Windows 15 or 2024? it does not make any seance to me!
The licenses to access the content are what would be inherited. Those can be used with the latest supported version of Logos (whatever that happens to be) when your will is executed (assuming Faithlife is still in business).
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And buy the way Bradley I had Portfolio in Logos 5, now I don't know what I have in Logos 6 (extended cross gate)
In Logos 5 portfolio I get minimum 50% of all bundles, do I still get this or have I lost this ability, just because I upgraded? It was also a promise "always"
regards
Ragnheðin
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As I recall we are getting at least 65% on all the new bundles, but you still have your 50% on all the old onesRagnheðin Ryggstein said:And buy the way Bradley I had Portfolio in Logos 5, now I don't know what I have in Logos 6 (extended cross gate)
In Logos 5 portfolio I get minimum 50% of all bundles, do I still get this or have I lost this ability, just because I upgraded? It was also a promise "always"
regards
Ragnheðin
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Thanks for the info Abondservant
Good night
Ragnheðin
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I recently bought a Galaxy S Tablet primarily as an ereader. I also settled for its use with Logos Android as well.I set my default bible recently in Android Logos app to NKJV.
At a recent Bible study it repeatedly tried to stay with the Lexham Bible no matter what I did even though clearly the settings showed it should have been the NKJV which I had downloaded too.
(I should mention I had a wifi-hotspot going on my Note 2 phone too...phew the things we go through, right?)
Imagine my consternation when I kept getting "negotiation failed" errors (which I used in context with The Bible Study we all were doing so we got some humor from it anyway).Its also still incredibly difficult to negotiate to a part of any Bible. I want tablet touch or phone touch capability similar to YOUVersion of the Bible.
I click colored abbreviations a couple of times and voila I am where I need to be.
Why isn't this basic functionality available in Logos - especially the new fangled "are-you-kidding-me-they-think-this-is-an-improvement?" version of the software that just came out?
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As I am the original poster in this conversation, I want to close this discussion.
1. I believe we have made the point to Logos that there is a significant group of users that for the foreseeable future want to operate Logos from their computer with occasional Internet access.
2. Logos has acknowledged this message.
3. Some few users want a more specific answer to their questions and they need to call Customer Service and discuss this individually.
4. We are beginning to get trash in our thread.
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... or Logos switches to a SAAS model (Logos Now) [:O]
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As Faithlife staff have said - great conversation!
Suggestion
Can the options that don't by functionality require being constantly online - have a user downloadable option added.
Context
I like Visual Copy - and the background - want more
I like the extra Maps - want more
But I cannot always guarantee internet coverage.
I can buy - very large PC storage!
Configure my settings to down load such items to a configurable size - say 2 T bytes maximum (just for Maps and Visual Copy) - once I have downloaded that much - don't allow anymore.
All items downloaded - should be updateable as normal downloadable content.
Needs some more thought - but what about it Faithlife - decent idea?
Shalom
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Stephen Smith said:
... or Logos switches to a SAAS model (Logos Now)
I think this overstates the case.
They have introduced a membership model which provides new features and functionality but this is a long way from switching to a SaaS model.
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Visual Copy is an awesome feature. I travel to Africa to teach pastors through Hands On Africa (handsonafrica.com). To make slides in powerpoint I use visual copy. It is bad that it is web based because while I am there we have no internet. It would be nice if we could have a few templates within the program so it can be used without internet. Just a thought. Visual copy is one of my favorite features.
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