Page Numbers
Does anyone know why some books do not have page numbers? Is it a publisher issue? Is it a cost of production issue?
For example: https://vyrso.com/product/39528/the-world-and-the-word-an-introduction-to-the-old-testament
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Kevin Maples said:
Does anyone know why some books do not have page numbers? Is it a publisher issue? Is it a cost of production issue?
For example: https://vyrso.com/product/39528/the-world-and-the-word-an-introduction-to-the-old-testament
Vyrso resources are "bare bones" rather than "value added" like "logos edition" resources. The books are automatically converted from the publisher eBook files which most often don't have page numbers.
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https://www.logos.com/product/4892/dictionary-of-the-later-new-testament-and-its-developments This book is a Logos edition and yet has no page numbers.alabama24 said:Vyrso resources are "bare bones" rather than "value added" like "logos edition" resources.
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Kevin Maples said:
https://www.logos.com/product/4892/dictionary-of-the-later-new-testament-and-its-developments This book is a Logos edition and yet has no page numbers.alabama24 said:Vyrso resources are "bare bones" rather than "value added" like "logos edition" resources.
Hi Kevin
When you can change the size of fonts, insert note markers, change the page size from full screen to a tiny panel at whim the concept of a page number becomes a little arbitary.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Some "logos edition" resources just don't have page numbers. Newer ones mostly do, as far as I know. Some, however, make little sense to add page numbers. The second example you give is of a dictionary. I know that in Turabian, page numbers aren't needed to cite a dictionary... you cite the "article."
Last Name, First Name. Encyclopedia/Dictionary name, Edition ed., s.v. "Article Title." Publication City: Publisher Name, Year Published.
Smith, John. Encyclopaedia Britannica, 8th ed., s.v. "Internet." Chicago: Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2009.
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I can see your point for books that only exist in an electronic edition. However, when digital books correspond to print editions page numbers can be very helpful.Mike Binks said:When you can change the size of fonts, insert note markers, change the page size from full screen to a tiny panel at whim the concept of a page number becomes a little arbitary.
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In the Harvard style you need a page number. I have used Turabian in the past, but my current school uses Harvard.alabama24 said:I know that in Turabian, page numbers aren't needed to cite a dictionary
There are others books that are not dictionaries and not Vyrso books that do not have page numbers.
I would just like to know why. I can live with it. I just don't like it and a good reason would help me digest it. Frankly, I'm tired of going to the library to find page numbers for books that I have in electronic format ( not all Logos ) without page numbers.
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Books produced in the early days often didn't have page number or indexes. Some series contain newer volumes that received the full treatment but the older volumes were never updated. Most books produced from a paper exemplar now receive the full treatment and are more useful in this regard.
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Kevin Maples said:
I would just like to know why. I can live with it. I just don't like it and a good reason would help me digest it. Frankly, I'm tired of going to the library to find page numbers for books that I have in electronic format ( not all Logos ) without page numbers.
There's not a good reason for it. The reason normally given for this and other deficiencies is the prohibitive cost of going back and updating "old" resources. In my view, however, if an "old" Logos resource is being newly marketed in a sale or upgrade package--and thus generating new revenues--effort should be expended in bringing it up to the advertised description of "high quality electronic books."
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I've joined with many here in reading Calvin's Institutes both in Battle's and Beveridge's translation.
I was a bit irritated when I noted that Beveridge's translation did not have page numbers - had to look them up in my dead-tree edition.
Rob
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Rob said:
I've joined with many here in reading Calvin's Institutes both in Battle's and Beveridge's translation.
I was a bit irritated when I noted that Beveridge's translation did not have page numbers
Note that Logos has at least two editions of Beveridge's translation of the 1559 Institutes:
The one without page numbers - left - was produced by Logos in 1997, it has additional search fields and additional footnotes by Robert Dunzweiler. See https://www.logos.com/resources/LLS_42.110.15/institutes-of-the-christian-religion (this edition seems to be not currently sold).
I think the reason for it having no page numbers is not being so old, but that this edition was never printed. With additional foreword and footnotes, which you can't locate on a page in your printed Beveridge, it is just not the same - and thus should not be academically cited as if it were the printed book.
But as seen on the right, you can read Beveridge's translation with page numbers in Logos (and it's available on its own and in several packages), see https://www.logos.com/resources/LLS_ICRBEV/institutes-of-the-christian-religion
Have joy in the Lord!
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I hope I can shed some light on the mystery of "missing" page numbers:
- We don't include page milestones in Vyrso resources.
- Back in the dark ages of Logos, it was standard practice to not provide page milestones. I wasn't around then and am not able to comment on the rationale. I could speculate but I don't think that would be very helpful.
- Sometime around the mid-to-late 2000's we began adding page milestones to all new books. There are some exceptions: books that have never been published in print do not have page milestones (for example a Logos Mobile Education course), cases where we receive special files from a publisher and these files do not correspond with the print version available (this is very rare and I can't think of an example.), and where page numbering is grossly inconsistent across versions (e.g. page numbers in Bibles wouldn't be very helpful, especially when the Bible milestone is already present).
- We try to add page milestones to those older books that are missing page milestones if and when we update the resource. This is dependent on a few important criteria: 1) we need to have access to the print. In some cases this has proved very difficult. 2) The version we produced must correspond exactly with the print resource available.
- Naturally we would like to have all of our library updated and are slowly working through the backlog. There are a number of factors that weigh heavily on the speed of that process.
This is only a brief summary and I hope it helps clarify things some. Let me know if you have any more questions.
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
We try to add page milestones to those older books that are missing page milestones if and when we update the resource. This is dependent on a few important criteria: 1) we need to have access to the print. In some cases this has proved very difficult. 2) The version we produced must correspond exactly with the print resource available.
Kyle,
Several important IVP resources that have been updated in the past 2-3 years have not had page number resources added:
- Dictionary of the Later New Testament & Its Developments (resource date: 2012-06-21T19:45:19Z)
- Dictionary of Christianity in America (resource date:2014-10-15T22:10:58Z)
- The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament (resource date:2012-07-25T20:45:36Z)
- The IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament (resource date:2003-01-10T20:30:58Z)
Can you speak to those? (I realize IVPBBC:OT was not updated recently, but I find that strange considering the IVPBBC:NT was, so I included it anyway).
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That's good to know. I knew some didn't, but I did not realize that all Vyrso books were missing page numbers.Kyle G. Anderson said:We don't include page milestones in Vyrso resources.
It does and it helps some to know a little more.Kyle G. Anderson said:I hope it helps clarify things some.
That's great to hear.Kyle G. Anderson said:Naturally we would like to have all of our library updated and are slowly working through the backlog.
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Yes, I use this constantly and have to keep a hard copy close by to check page numbers.Todd Phillips said:Dictionary of the Later New Testament & Its Developments (resource date: 2012-06-21T19:45:19Z)
I'd like to hear the explanation also.Todd Phillips said:Can you speak to those?
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- Dictionary of the Later New Testament & Its Developments (resource date: 2012-06-21T19:45:19Z)
This was updated in 2012 to support LCV. That was its only update. We acquired print for it in 2013 and it should receive page milestones the next time it receives a major update. (I have no ETA on that one.)
- Dictionary of Christianity in America (resource date:2014-10-15T22:10:58Z)
This has never been updated. It was republished in 2012 and 2014 due to issues pertaining to Logos 5 and Logos 6 support. This is where the resource dates in the information panel can be deceiving. A resource may not have been changed but it may have been re-published (thus giving it a later date).
- The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament (resource date:2012-07-25T20:45:36Z)
- The IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old Testament (resource date:2003-01-10T20:30:58Z)
I'm less help on these two. I'm having trouble tracking down why the NT was updated but the OT was not. It seems strange to me as well. I do know that when it was updated there was a materials issue that did not prevent it from getting fixed but it did prevent adding of page milestones.
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On a related note: we are aware of the need for better communication concerning what was updated and when. We're having internal discussions on how to make this happen.
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Thanks Kyle.
Kyle G. Anderson said:On a related note: we are aware of the need for better communication concerning what was updated and when. We're having internal discussions on how to make this happen.
This is good news. If you could just note the type of changes, it would be good progress:
- indexes added/updated (list which ones),
- typos fixed (no need to list these),
- file format update,
- reference tagging updated,
- etc.
I don't finer granularity is needed
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For my department that's exactly the type of data we would like to expose.
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