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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 5:38 AM

This thread has been USEFUL. However, the eagle has not quite landed yet. What I perceive from the ongoing interaction here is that on the one hand, we have folks who know what these searches are technically. On the other hand, there is ongoing feedback that shows that these more technical answers are not regarded as sufficiently accessible, easy to grasp, remember, and use. 

I think we have much greater clarity over datatypes searches as reference searches. I prefer personally to use the word referent because for many, the word reference conjures up Bible references or footnotes, but not so much the idea that "Sarah's husband" refers to "Abraham". But "Sarah's husband" is a referent to the person Abraham. These searches use <...> as syntax.

It is not completely useful to say that extension searches are not datatype searches because there are other types of searches that are not datatype searches but are not extension searches either (like a simple text search). It may say what extensions are not, but it does not say what they are.

It is useful to say that extension searches are different kinds of searches we can use to search and only look at time similar to datatype searches because the syntax has been abbreviated and obscures how the two type of searches are distinct in cases such as {Label Psalms} or {Highlight Yellow}.

Perhaps if syntax was consistently applied (but might become more cumbersome) we would have one syntax for them all: 

<Person Abraham> would be {Referent <Person Abraham>} meaning I am looking for a referent. To what? A person. To whom? Abraham.

{Highlight Yellow} would be {Highlight <Colour Yellow>} meaning I am looking for a highlighted text. What kind? A colour. Which colour? Yellow.  

Instead, we're supposed to know and remember that <...> imply that it is a reference search. And that {...} are different types of searches (not unlike the tabs "morph" "syntax" "clause" in the search pane).

Every attempt I have made so far to reformulate has not been adequate and perhaps this one will not be either. But then I would invite the techies to do it (as opposed to saying it cannot be done) recognising that (1) if what you deem simple has not cleared the confusion it is obviously because it is not as clear as you think or is still somewhat fuzzy definition; (2) considering the following of this thread and what the non-techies have said, the need is there and should not be denied; (3) obviously the fine-tuning and brainstorming has born fruit (showing it can be done): all we need now is an accessible summary if the above won't do.

Posts 13392
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 6:02 AM

Francis:
all we need now is an accessible summary if the above won't do.

Frankly, what we need now is an interface which allows users to construct these searches without remembering or even understanding the syntax. I don't think any amount of explanation is going to change that fact. For those who can't/don't want to wait, then some of the answers in this thread will help.

AFAIK, that's Faithlife's view, too. It will come. But it's hard to create a simple UI for something so powerful, which is why it's taking a long time.

Posts 1359
PL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 8:02 AM

Mark Barnes:
Frankly, what we need now is an interface which allows users to construct these searches without remembering or even understanding the syntax.

Yes!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 11:54 AM

Mark Barnes:
Frankly, what we need now is an interface which allows users to construct these searches without remembering or even understanding the syntax. I don't think any amount of explanation is going to change that fact.

Agreed ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 29 2016 3:54 PM

Mark Barnes:
Frankly, what we need now is an interface which allows users to construct these searches without remembering or even understanding the syntax. I don't think any amount of explanation is going to change that fact. For those who can't/don't want to wait, then some of the answers in this thread will help.

I'm really looking forward to that day. It will take Logos to the next level.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2016 6:14 PM

Francis:

Graham Criddle:

Francis - does this adequately answer your question?

No, Graham. What there is on this page is precisely what I do not want: mostly prescriptions and little in term of elucidation

Is this improved, now? Read all the context, as I tried to avoid tech terms in describing the new search {extension} and datatypes

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 235
Bob Diebel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 4 2017 11:51 AM

What would be useful for many computer and "Information Technology" users (as Mark says "not a replacement but an add-on alternative") would be to add the capability to use "regular expressions" as so many programming languages do and as is selectable in "eSword" Bible software. With programming and "BIG DATA" as the future, this will become more important.

This very powerful tool will work in many places and be around for a long time. It is industry standard.

IBM insisted on "EBCDIC" while the rest of the world used "ASCII"

Then they insisted on their own Operating Systems while most others went with "UNIX"

They eventually had to submit, buying a version 3 of UNIX from AT&T and branding it as "AIX"

I am sure a number of examples could be given for Microsoft refusing to fit in with current industry standards. They did not all end well.

The innovation LOGOS has shown is fantastic, but it is also nice to fit in.

"Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 4 2017 12:38 PM

Bob Diebel:

The innovation LOGOS has shown is fantastic, but it is also nice to fit in.

I don't believe regular expressions would fit in with most users. The present search syntax can already be cryptic, obscure, even off-putting.

Even as an add-on alternative that most users wouldn't have/need to learn, I believe it would still have a negative effect of making the search learning curve (appear) more steep.

I'd like to see innovation make existing powerful features more intuitive, friendly and accessible to more users.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 4889
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 4 2017 4:56 PM

It sounds like some people are suggesting they would like a GUI for Logos searching. I wouldn't object to that. I spend so little time using L> because about 95-99% of my time is spent in L3. As a result, I have little awareness of the finer points of the more recent configs (using L5 on my old sys and L6 on my new one). Anything that is more intuitive and less jargo-tecnical would be appreciated.

But, honestly, I mainly just want my reference links to work.

Posts 4889
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 4 2017 5:23 PM

Dave Hooton:

Wow, that page is mighty loooooooong. I suppose power often comes at the expense of simplicity, or stated other way around, power engenders complexity. The reason I find that page off-putting is because to me it reminds me of Spanish. I "took Spanish" in high school, college, and on-the-job, and I never retained it because I never used it...and not being able to pronounce the rolled-R correctly always helped to diminish my resolve. I know I'm an outlier, but my constant use of L3 means I have little sense that I will ever successfully take that particular hill. In fact, I'm not even sure what I'm missing for the most part. I have a sense I could "get something useful" out of that page of programming code, but I don't know exactly what that would be. I do use L> for things I can't do in L3 (mostly accessing resources not available in L3), but I find the new stuff clunky and overly click-needy.

There's definitely a perception of a vertical learning wall by some folks. I got a friend to buy L4 a few years back. After a few weeks I noticed he was using a free KJV on his phone...it may have even been a PDF! He used to work for NASA, so he's not technically weak. He just got off-put by the clunky "process".

Posts 3763
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 6 2017 1:31 AM

Dave Hooton put in a commendable effort to make the explanations more approachable. At the time (and for months afterward), I was pressed by deadlines and could not take the time to read it carefully and answer his request for feedback. It says something about the state of affairs that by the time I returned to it, the level of clarity I had attained earlier had already faded away. I was faced with the choice either refreshing myself all over again on the topic or moving on. Let's just say that I still have pressing deadlines. 

This is probably a commentary on my own mental fatigue as well. But I think it might also reflect the fact that it remains a complicated system to wrap one's mind around and, most importantly, to call back to mind, especially when one does not have the opportunity to use it extensively all the time. Looking at language acquisition, it is clear that we remember best what we can have a helpful mental picture of. 

So my belated thanks to Dave and apologies for not being able to follow through. Your changes are probably as good as it's gonna get in view of the complexity of what it sets out to explain. 

Posts 235
Bob Diebel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 6 2017 1:06 PM

"Even as an add-on alternative that most users wouldn't have/need to learn, I believe it would still have a negative effect of making the search learning curve (appear) more steep."

As to your first point, you are probably right as of today "REGX" would be ignored by most users.

My point is people are getting more and more into computers, and programming so tomorrow I believe more will benefit from its availability, and not having to learn a different search UI for every software package they use.

As an add-on that could be selected if desired, I fail to see how it would have a "negative effect" if it was not default and was easily ignored if not selected.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 6 2017 6:58 PM

Bob Diebel:

As an add-on that could be selected if desired, I fail to see how it would have a "negative effect" if it was not default and was easily ignored if not selected.

I think the negative effect would be in regard to the forum, where users come to ask search questions and find answers. Once regular expressions were available to power users, I suspect you'd see more and more answers that utilize them, unnecessarily exposing users to something they might not have chosen to learn or use. It would then just be one more thing to be puzzled about, especially if the regex was complex.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 2022
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 6 2017 7:10 PM

Bruce Dunning:

Mark Barnes:
Frankly, what we need now is an interface which allows users to construct these searches without remembering or even understanding the syntax. I don't think any amount of explanation is going to change that fact. For those who can't/don't want to wait, then some of the answers in this thread will help.

I'm really looking forward to that day. It will take Logos to the next level.

Agree!!!

Posts 28711
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 7 2017 6:15 PM

PetahChristian:
I think the negative effect would be in regard to the forum, where users come to ask search questions and find answers. Once regular expressions were available to power users, I suspect you'd see more and more answers that utilize them, unnecessarily exposing users to something they might not have chosen to learn or use.

When regular expressions were available (or partially available) I don't remember this being an issue.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 25578
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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 8 2017 12:57 PM

David Paul:
Wow, that page is mighty loooooooong. I suppose power often comes at the expense of simplicity, or stated other way around, power engenders complexity.

L3 has a powerful implementation of Regular Expressions and its text search (Bible, Basic etc) has a complexity not approached by L4+. It's all documented, but you don't have to look at its Advanced Searching if the 'standard' searching serves your purposes. In fact L4+ 'standard' searching is deficient because it still does not have a proper logical NOT implementation. L6 introduced the complexity of dataset searching that is described under Sense and Textual on "that page", and which puts various analyses of the biblical text at your fingertips, if you so choose e.g. can I find the quotes from Deuteronomy that appear in the NT? Can I find the Psalms that are attributed to David? Can I find various miracles attributed to Elisha?

Dave
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Windows 10 & Android 8

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 8 2017 1:14 PM

Francis:
Dave Hooton put in a commendable effort to make the explanations more approachable...

So my belated thanks to Dave and apologies for not being able to follow through. Your changes are probably as good as it's gonna get in view of the complexity of what it sets out to explain. .

I'm not fully satisfied with it, but Faithlife still has to make some changes to its auto-suggested formats and inline 'Help' to fix some inconsistencies.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 8 2017 1:37 PM

PetahChristian:

Bob Diebel:

As an add-on that could be selected if desired, I fail to see how it would have a "negative effect" if it was not default and was easily ignored if not selected.

I think the negative effect would be in regard to the forum, where users come to ask search questions and find answers. Once regular expressions were available to power users, I suspect you'd see more and more answers that utilize them, unnecessarily exposing users to something they might not have chosen to learn or use. It would then just be one more thing to be puzzled about, especially if the regex was complex.

I would use Regular Expressions only where necessary, in much the same way that I would suggest an advanced L6 solution to "Where did Jesus quote Isaiah?". Although I usually supply an explanation, many users just want the answer. I'm not into complex Regex because it is rarely justified in bible software and it confuses me as well!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 77
Pat Brown | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 12 2017 8:05 AM

I appreciate the effort everyone is going to here. But, in the first place, I'm in the middle of an ongoing subject. Also, I will read a statement about how something works, only to read later that that statement was incorrect. And, in a discussion of a particular subject, a second aspect will be thrown in with a new discussion.

I feel like I'm learning about this subject using the jigsaw puzzle approach ( a piece here, a seemingly unrelated piece there. No beginning. Just jump in with the piece you have in your hand). To have a course written by an "authoritative person on this subject" that had a logical (and easy beginning) moving to the more complicated, written in an orderly fashion would take this very complicated and confusing category and make more sense to those of us who want to increase our search ability but just don't know how.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 12 2017 8:20 AM

Hi Pat

Pat Browne:
I appreciate the effort everyone is going to here. But, in the first place, I'm in the middle of an ongoing subject. Also, I will read a statement about how something works, only to read later that that statement was incorrect. And, in a discussion of a particular subject, a second aspect will be thrown in with a new discussion.

Yes this thread was wide-ranging with many different perspectives offered

Pat Browne:
To have a course written by an "authoritative person on this subject" that had a logical (and easy beginning) moving to the more complicated, written in an orderly fashion would take this very complicated and confusing category and make more sense to those of us who want to increase our search ability but just don't know how.

There are various courses / training guides available - such as https://www.logos.com/product/138606/lt270-study-the-bible-with-logos-jonah-1-1-16 and https://www.logos.com/product/51655/verbum-advanced-search-training - but what particularly are you hoping to learn / understand better?

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