How to make Hebrew bible text wrap, *not* 1 verse per line?

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Posts 308
Jeremiah | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jun 29 2017 1:52 PM

I'm reposting my question from "learn Hebrew and Greek" forum here since I didn't get any response over there.  

I searched and couldn't find this but I'm sure someone must have asked this before so if it's a duplicate my apologies.

I checked in settings, and on the settings (font size etc) for the book in question.

I want my Hebrew text to flow without line breaks like my Greek text does.

I'm sure this is probably a 'duh' moment for me but I searched and searched and don't see what I did to make the Hebrew revert back to the "each verse starts on a new line" mode.

Thanks,

-Jeremiah

Original Post from 2 weeks ago here

Dead languages are my mid-life crisis

Posts 10039
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 29 2017 2:34 PM

I didn't ignore your query ... just no known solution.

Normally, you'd click on the olympics icon, then Bible text. Bu un-checked one-line-only is the same as one-line-only. For all of my hebrew resources.

I see you're a student of KSFJ! Or share his enthusiasm.


Posts 308
Jeremiah | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 29 2017 2:39 PM

I like KSFJ markups for the Greek grammar. Though I'm not sure why I had all the case endings turned on in this screen shot. Ah, it's LXX I don't bother to change it like N.T. Makes it very colorful though!

Dead languages are my mid-life crisis

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 13 2017 6:15 PM

Denise:
... un-checked one-line-only is the same as one-line-only. For all of my hebrew resources.

+1 finding Hebrew resources having each verse start a new line (so dreaming of paragraph formatted Hebrew Bible)

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 308
Jeremiah | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 15 2017 3:01 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Denise:
... un-checked one-line-only is the same as one-line-only. For all of my hebrew resources.

+1 finding Hebrew resources having each verse start a new line (so dreaming of paragraph formatted Hebrew Bible)

Keep Smiling Smile

really this needs to be logged as a bug. My other Hebrew programs from other companies dont behave this way

Dealing with biblical text.

Standard disclaimer I love logos, but this is a bug in dealing with right to left text improperly. It slows down my reading and makes it more awkward especially when I'm presenting and I keep needing to scroll. I'm kinda suprised this didnt bother somebody before or maybe it's a new bug? Some underlying api used by the dev team got upgraded and broke this?

Dead languages are my mid-life crisis

Posts 1810
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 16 2017 6:09 AM

Jeremiah:
I want my Hebrew text to flow without line breaks like my Greek text does.

Tread lightly when you ask for a change to an existing resource. The one line per verse formation in NASB95 is VERY important to some users. I'm guessing Logos would open a new can of worms if a change is made that may make the default behave different than users are accustomed to seeing.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 308
Jeremiah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 16 2017 1:40 PM

David Thomas:

Jeremiah:
I want my Hebrew text to flow without line breaks like my Greek text does.

Tread lightly when you ask for a change to an existing resource. The one line per verse formation in NASB95 is VERY important to some users. I'm guessing Logos would open a new can of worms if a change is made that may make the default behave different than users are accustomed to seeing.

Thanks for your response David; I think there is a misunderstanding here.

I'm not asking for them to change the functionality on any language except Hebrew. I'm also not asking to change any default functionalities. I just want the Hebrew one to be fixed so that it works.

The setting in settings for "display 1 verse per line" has a check box. If you click it or unclick it, the display of your bible text changes accordingly. Not so in Hebrew. It's always 1 verse per line irregardless of the choice in settings.

To be clear, the following picture shows the check box which doesn't do anything for a Hebrew bible...

Ok it does something, it looks like it makes the font larger for the verse numbers and adds some padding; so it's clear the developers knew something is supposed to happen here it's just not rendering properly.

UNCHECKED:

CHECKED:

thanks,

-Jeremiah

Dead languages are my mid-life crisis

Posts 1810
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 16 2017 6:45 PM

Jeremiah:
Thanks for your response David; I think there is a misunderstanding here.

I have no problem making versification "clickable", I am just assuming that if that button is activated for any Hebrew text and the default display is anything other than what it is now (one verse per line) then some other users may become upset (if the NASB uproar is any indication)

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 308
Jeremiah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 16 2017 10:52 PM

David Thomas:

Jeremiah:
Thanks for your response David; I think there is a misunderstanding here.

I have no problem making versification "clickable", I am just assuming that if that button is activated for any Hebrew text and the default display is anything other than what it is now (one verse per line) then some other users may become upset (if the NASB uproar is any indication)

Each bible has it's own display properties. 

Changing the setting for Hebrew will not affect NASB users. It's already cllickable it just doesn't do what the title says. Instead it changes the font size of the verse numbers only. I probably made it confusing when I wrote "settings" it's actually as Denise wrote above in the "olympic icon" area.

Each resource has their own "olympic icon" view settings such as visual filters, etc. 

Dead languages are my mid-life crisis

Posts 4879
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 17 2017 2:19 AM

If I am wrong please provide an example, but I don't recall ever seeing a paragraph formatted Hebrew Bible in Logos. So I do not believe it's a case of the software not working. I would expect checking or unchecking this box to have little effect for a Hebrew bible given the bible is not in paragraph format. This check box is meant to change the display of resources that are in paragraph format. One could argue this particular check box should not be displayed in bibles that are not in paragraph format. 

What you are asking for is something new. There are two ways this could be done: either a visual filter that converts a verse per line bible into a paragraph format or a new resource that is in paragraph format by default. I would have no issue with either of these as I believe it is important for the needs of all users to be met in terms of their preferred reading format.

Posts 308
Jeremiah | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 17 2017 2:57 AM

Disciple of Christ (doc):

If I am wrong please provide an example, but I don't recall ever seeing a paragraph formatted Hebrew Bible in Logos. So I do not believe it's a case of the software not working. I would expect checking or unchecking this box to have little effect for a Hebrew bible given the bible is not in paragraph format. This check box is meant to change the display of resources that are in paragraph format. One could argue this particular check box should not be displayed in bibles that are not in paragraph format. 

What you are asking for is something new. There are two ways this could be done: either a visual filter that converts a verse per line bible into a paragraph format or a new resource that is in paragraph format by default. I would have no issue with either of these as I believe it is important for the needs of all users to be met in terms of their preferred reading format.

Hey Doc,

it may be that it's always been that way with logos.

I only recently returned here a few months ago after using other software for a decade.

I used to use a different program for my Hebrew bible needs which displayed "paragraph" style as you call it.

As a user, it seems like a bug to have a check mark to display or not display 1 verse per line which in effect does something else (changes font size of the verse markers), yet does what it says in all the other languages (Greek, English, etc).

Either it does what it says or shouldn't be there or should do nothing right?

I mean otherwise logically we can call it "make verse number larger check box" :) 

I love logos and all the functionality is great.

It just seems weird to me that Hebrew would be treated in such a manner that the formatting option doesn't work on it like it does with Greek or English.

All my Hebrew print bibles are "paragraph style" so I don't see why that option would not be desirable in Logos.

It's the standard in print (not even asking for the special spacings and such of the masorah-which btw would be *awesome*).

Anyway for my needs a visual filter would be fine as long as that doesn't break anything else and works on tablets also.

While I do spend a couple hours per day in the Hebrew text, I am certain I'm not the only person who wants this for the Hebrew bibles in logos.

Thank you to everyone who responded to my concern.

This post was written one verse per line; the way Hebrew readers are forced to read 75% of the bible in logos ;)

באהבת המשיח

(in Messiah's love)

-Jeremiah

Dead languages are my mid-life crisis

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 17 2017 3:13 AM

The Hebrew New Testament behaves as Jeremiah expects, by switching between "one verse per line", and "no line breaks."

Someone at FL might know the reason why most Hebrew bibles don't offer what that one particular resource does.

Posts 4879
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 17 2017 4:45 AM

Thanks Peta, I haven't used that resource. The difference with it though it is NT. I cant speak for Jeremiah but I was thinking specifically about OT Hebrew manuscripts. I will have to take a look at this now you have pointed it out.

Posts 1810
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 17 2017 10:15 AM

Jeremiah:
Changing the setting for Hebrew will not affect NASB users. It's already cllickable it just doesn't do what the title says. Instead it changes the font size of the verse numbers only. I probably made it confusing when I wrote "settings" it's actually as Denise wrote above in the "olympic icon" area.

I know it will not affect NASB users. But if I am used to BHS or LHB looking a particular way and suddenly the default looks different, then there is potential for upset users.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 17 2017 1:29 PM

David Thomas:
But if I am used to BHS or LHB looking a particular way and suddenly the default looks different, then there is potential for upset users.

Concur with potential while desiring LHB resource transformation to paragraph formatting, which could be used with One Verse per line visual filter.

FYI: anticipate publisher permission for changing Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) to paragraph formatting being easier than BHS.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 308
Jeremiah | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 17 2017 6:11 PM

PetahChristian:

The Hebrew New Testament behaves as Jeremiah expects, by switching between "one verse per line", and "no line breaks."

Someone at FL might know the reason why most Hebrew bibles don't offer what that one particular resource does.

Thanks Petah! That makes my point very nicely. The New Testament resource works properly but Old Testament doesn't.

Beautiful beautiful beautiful I knew I wasn't crazy! 

At least... maybe not Stick out tongue

Dead languages are my mid-life crisis

Posts 308
Jeremiah | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 17 2017 6:14 PM

David Thomas:

Jeremiah:
Changing the setting for Hebrew will not affect NASB users. It's already cllickable it just doesn't do what the title says. Instead it changes the font size of the verse numbers only. I probably made it confusing when I wrote "settings" it's actually as Denise wrote above in the "olympic icon" area.

I know it will not affect NASB users. But if I am used to BHS or LHB looking a particular way and suddenly the default looks different, then there is potential for upset users.

Hey Dave, nothing will "suddenly look different" just the presentation layer bug will be fixed.

I.e. the check box will actually change the paragraph formatting instead of the verse number size. If we are to be worried about users being surprised and confused when functionality is corrected then we can never make corrections. The current behavior is incorrect. If F.L. is truly concerned then just make the default as it is now, 1 verse per line. Nobody will be surprised then because the only way to change it will be to manually click that check box (expecting a change)

PetahChristian's example of how Hebrew language New Testament resource work properly with this setting is proof in the pudding that Old Testament Hebrew texts should also work this way. So now we have: Greek works (OT and NT), English Works (Both Testaments), Latin, German, etc.. .all work, the odd-boll out is original language Hebrew/Aramaic Old Testament. No way we can say "let's not confuse users, leave it broken!"

it's broken

Dead languages are my mid-life crisis

Posts 308
Jeremiah | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 17 2017 6:23 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

David Thomas:
But if I am used to BHS or LHB looking a particular way and suddenly the default looks different, then there is potential for upset users.

Concur with potential while desiring LHB resource transformation to paragraph formatting, which could be used with One Verse per line visual filter.

FYI: anticipate publisher permission for changing Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) to paragraph formatting being easier than BHS.

Keep Smiling Smile

Hey Doc, the main resource I'm using is BHS SESB 2.0 but I would be plenty happy if F.L. made the formatting trick work in a Lexham version and rolled out the various BHS / BHQ / etc. text fixes later if there was licensing hubub going on.

BTW: since you seem to be a Visual Filter Jedi, is there anyway I could get you to chime in on these 2 threads?

Is there a way to suppress the English part of entries in the Lexham analytical lexicon to the LXX

Is there a way I can apply my visual filter (Ugaritic custom font filter to change transliterated text to actual Ugaritic cuneiform) i.e. entries in HALOT?

Thanks if you can!

Dead languages are my mid-life crisis

Posts 431
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 18 2017 12:16 PM

David Thomas:

Jeremiah:
Changing the setting for Hebrew will not affect NASB users. It's already cllickable it just doesn't do what the title says. Instead it changes the font size of the verse numbers only. I probably made it confusing when I wrote "settings" it's actually as Denise wrote above in the "olympic icon" area.

I know it will not affect NASB users. But if I am used to BHS or LHB looking a particular way and suddenly the default looks different, then there is potential for upset users.

This is a good consideration. Thankfully, however, I don't recall any of these Hebrew editions sharing the unique features of the NASB, which made any changes to that version more drastic and difficult to implement.

Posts 431
Adam Olean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 18 2017 12:54 PM

Jeremiah, there are many others who desire a paragraph formatting option for our Hebrew Bibles. It comes up from time to time on the forums. Default Hebrew font sizes have been another problem that they've acknowledge (e.g., the font size of BHS remains huge even when I set it to the smallest option, particularly on my 27 inch 1080P monitor, although it's a problem elsewhere as well). Faithlife/Logos applications simply do not offer adequate font-size gradients in my opinion, but that's besides the point!

If you own BHW 4.18, the closest you can get to anything akin to paragraph breaks or markers is to create a visual filter (e.g., "BHW 4.18 Paragraph Markers") with the following search queries, which I recall getting from KS4J on another thread:

([field bible, content] <WestMorph ~ x>) ANDEQUALS ס

([field bible, content] <WestMorph ~ x>) ANDEQUALS פ

For the second one, you could simply try using the highlighting style "Newline Before And After" (under Emphasis Markup highlights). For the first one, you can create a new highlighting style (e.g., "Paragraph Closed ס"). Then under 'Insert Text', it looks like I included ten blank spaces in the "Text Before" the parashah setumah symbol. You can experiment and tweak it to your liking.

Here, I found a thread from KS4J with additional explanations, links, and ideas (e.g., alternatives for an "Paragraph Open פ"). https://community.logos.com/forums/t/100035.aspx  

I hope this helps while we wait for true paragraph formatting!

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