OT: George Will's Prognosticating.

Page 1 of 2 (37 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 36 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 9922
Denise | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jan 3 2019 9:45 AM

For anyone not knowing George Will, he's conservative, with a bad habit of discussing issues that don't easily get resolved.

This, from today's unsolvable issue (I didn't copy it; below is a paragraph):

"The Economist says that “Nones” — people with no religion — “already outnumber Catholics and mainline Protestants,” and in 2019 might outnumber evangelicals. “There will soon be more Nones than any single group of Christians.” Ex-Catholics are 13 percent of the American population."

He goes on to note demographic mix shifts (millenials will exceed baby-boomers, and twice as diverse).

You're wondering, what's this got to do with Logos?? 

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.


Posts 2451
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2019 10:35 AM

Maybe this means that FL should also look to the international market, which it is doing with some degree of success.

Posts 5235
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2019 12:34 PM

I dare say had FL cared enough about the international market to make the NJB with notes available to international as well as North American markets it likely would be under contract now.  I do know this is an extra step but WORDsearch and Accordance both have worldwide distribution of the NJB (text version as FL has now) so it is a possible thing, just one that FL has chosen not to go with. And I do get  it is simpler to deal with the NA rights holder only and then possibly seek other rights later.  But with this example in particular it is far more popular in the global market than in the NA market. Meaning you get a lot of frustrated international customers. I know I have felt this in Noet their Ebook store has had several items I wanted but FL did not get my money but Amazon did since books could not be sold outside USA. I realize that contracts can be very complex but sometimes you have to spend the time to ensure that you have a product your customers can get. 

-dan

Posts 6122
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2019 2:04 PM

I still don’t get the comment, though 🧐🤓

Posts 996
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2019 2:24 PM

Denise:

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

Christians have been parsing Scripture carefully since the time of the apostles. Can that sometimes become a dry, academic "slicing and dicing" exercise? Sure! But if so, the blame is in ourselves, and not in the tool.

Posts 9922
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2019 2:43 PM

EastTN:

Denise:

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

Christians have been parsing Scripture carefully since the time of the apostles. Can that sometimes become a dry, academic "slicing and dicing" exercise? Sure! But if so, the blame is in ourselves, and not in the tool.

Well, if all you can see in church software is slicing/dicing, money management, and power points, then you're right.

I'd argue (1) the church isn't being well served (software) and (2) Logos' main model is pouring information (sermons) into a progressively less interested group of believers.  


Posts 2948
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 4 2019 7:12 PM

Denise:

You're wondering, what's this got to do with Logos?? 

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

What would you, Denise, have FL do instead?

Posts 448
Dave Moser | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 4 2019 7:33 PM

Denise:
Logos' main model is pouring information (sermons) into a progressively less interested group of believers.

2 Tim 4:1-5

Posts 9922
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 4 2019 9:08 PM

SineNomine:

Denise:

You're wondering, what's this got to do with Logos?? 

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

What would you, Denise, have FL do instead?

Now, SineNomine, you can't have that limited an imagination. If I remember correctly a few years back, Logos yanked the cord (and many peoples' lives) on developing tools for the Catholic folks. I thought the Catholics probably had the best chance for a Christian-learning model. The Baptists even more. 'Churches.'

I'm not trying to offend you, but (so far), all the participants can think of is one-way sermons (complete with illustrations). Plus more and more searches for counting instances of take-your-pick ... it's amazing. Something, I doubt the Pastoral writer ever had in mind for folks' eternal salvation.


Posts 26014
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 4 2019 10:25 PM

Denise, are you trying to provoke me into making statements about exegetical practices that insure you never have to address the hard issues, risk having to change a position, or horror of horrors actually have to change how you live? Shouldn't serious Bible study be measured by the daily uprooting of habitual views and secure theology? But since you come from "the text, the whole text and nothing but the text" and I come from "the liturgy, the divine liturgy, and everything in the liturgy", I know we wouldn't accidentally be of the same opinion of the late-1800's dappled nag.Wink

I'd be happy to even get a workflow based on the various criticisms described in Pontifical Biblical Commission. The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church. Vatican City: Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1993. as a authentic first step acceptable to much of the mainline churches. It might not be ideal but it has a potential to ask embarrassing questions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 996
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 5 2019 4:07 AM

Denise:

Well, if all you can see in church software is slicing/dicing, money management, and power points, then you're right.

That's my point - that's not all I see in the software. I see every book I studied in seminary on a tablet smaller than a trade paperback. I see an electronic library that has some of the greatest works from every era in church history. I see commentaries, devotionals, systematic theologies, dictionaries and encyclopedias. I see more English translations that I can shake a stick at. I see critical editions of both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures, along with grammars, lexicons and study aids.

What I do with it is on me.

Posts 2167
Forum MVP
John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 5 2019 5:46 AM

Denise:

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

Denise, I usually try not to get into these types of discussions with those that are smarter and more clever than I am, which you are. But I am confused...

So.... Logos is marketing only to pastors and scholars?? or Logos is only really useful to pastors and scholars?  or Libby is the right product for the masses, that are shrinking according to the article? or What? 

The article snippet, without context,  appears to be a reflection on the effectiveness of the "Church" ( universal not any particular denomination) and really has nothing to do with Bible software or how that software is used. The reasons for that are beyond the scope of this forum.

High-end Bible software is a small and specialized  market. Many of those in the pews find the free Bible apps available sufficient for their study or still prefer paper resources. I know as I have discussed Bible software with them.

So, forgoing a market you have a strong presence in to chase a market that does not see a need to pay for Bible software is what you are proposing?? Quit expanding features and just publish resources? Why publish more advanced resources as most of those in the pews do not require them? Why bother with original languages or ancient texts as most of the people in the pews do not need them? Most of the resources you have expressed excitement for are not resources useful to those in the pews.... Please tell me... What does it mean to be in the Church and the excitement??

I do not use emojis to lighten the tone of my comments... consider them implied.

Posts 9922
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 5 2019 6:43 AM

EastTN:

Denise:

Well, if all you can see in church software is slicing/dicing, money management, and power points, then you're right.

That's my point - that's not all I see in the software. I see every book I studied in seminary on a tablet smaller than a trade paperback. I see an electronic library that has some of the greatest works from every era in church history. I see commentaries, devotionals, systematic theologies, dictionaries and encyclopedias. I see more English translations that I can shake a stick at. I see critical editions of both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures, along with grammars, lexicons and study aids.

What I do with it is on me.

EastTN (which if indeed one of the stars on the Tennessee flag, and the most nicest area in the lower-48), I'm not decrying the gorgeous Logos for pastors. I'm speaking about the other 99 at your church.


Posts 9922
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 5 2019 6:50 AM

MJ. Smith:

Denise, are you trying to provoke me into making statements about exegetical practices that insure you never have to address the hard issues, risk having to change a position, or horror of horrors actually have to change how you live? Shouldn't serious Bible study be measured by the daily uprooting of habitual views and secure theology? But since you come from "the text, the whole text and nothing but the text" and I come from "the liturgy, the divine liturgy, and everything in the liturgy", I know we wouldn't accidentally be of the same opinion of the late-1800's dappled nag.Wink

I'd be happy to even get a workflow based on the various criticisms described in Pontifical Biblical Commission. The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church. Vatican City: Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1993. as a authentic first step acceptable to much of the mainline churches. It might not be ideal but it has a potential to ask embarrassing questions.

MJ, you (easily) out-did me. Dappled nag. And, I don't wish to violate the forum rules (except for this thread, of course), but 'the text' is far more un-traditional (liberal)  than the modern-day churches. And I make no demands on others ... George said it best ... modern-day gnosticism. But I will always wonder if someone turned Ignatius in to the authorities (that speaks to the major divide, that began approximately 'then').


Posts 9922
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 5 2019 7:22 AM

John Fidel:

Denise:

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

Denise, I usually try not to get into these types of discussions with those that are smarter and more clever than I am, which you are. But I am confused...

So.... Logos is marketing only to pastors and scholars?? or Logos is only really useful to pastors and scholars?  or Libby is the right product for the masses, that are shrinking according to the article? or What? 

The article snippet, without context,  appears to be a reflection on the effectiveness of the "Church" ( universal not any particular denomination) and really has nothing to do with Bible software or how that software is used. The reasons for that are beyond the scope of this forum.

High-end Bible software is a small and specialized  market. Many of those in the pews find the free Bible apps available sufficient for their study or still prefer paper resources. I know as I have discussed Bible software with them.

So, forgoing a market you have a strong presence in to chase a market that does not see a need to pay for Bible software is what you are proposing?? Quit expanding features and just publish resources? Why publish more advanced resources as most of those in the pews do not require them? Why bother with original languages or ancient texts as most of the people in the pews do not need them? Most of the resources you have expressed excitement for are not resources useful to those in the pews.... Please tell me... What does it mean to be in the Church and the excitement??

I do not use emojis to lighten the tone of my comments... consider them implied.

John, first, thank you for being a gentleman. So, my answers are also meant in kindness.

- Whether the (organized) church succeeds or not, is of no significance to me. My beliefs don't require them. And, remember 'none' in the snippet is not atheists .. it's folks that still believe. Just not 'churches'. My point speaks to (a) the increasingly poor job organized churches do, (b) the benefits sophisticated software can do for members for a more enriching experience, and (c) the apparently growing world of un-churched believers who would benefit from Logos.

- Your questions are classic greek debate .. hit the extreme, knowing not relevant. In this case, 'only', you know the answer to. Your question should rather be, the bulk of investment (by Logos), the internal designs, and yes, the marketing. 

- You mention high-end Bible software, and you make my point for me. Remember FL's expressed mission. There's an inherent dissonance. Maybe they should admit they're just a small specialized company. I don't agree. FL has the sophistication to become a far more valuable service to the church. And, just observing them, they seem like the only group that 'could' achieve their stated mission. The more simple, smaller groups are pretty much large book-mobiles.

- Lastly, I don't think I need tell you about excitement ... my guess, your church too. Here, in our little berg, the members move across denominations (not the pastors, of course), have Bible classes both sponsored, and unsponsored, argue Biblical points while eating pizza and beer, and group into larger efforts for community assistance (led by the jewish rabbi, the Catholic guy, and female pastors ... the guy pastors maybe other challenges).  

Now, you'd likely say, Logos??  And I'd agree. Hard to use, internally focus'd, expensive (beyond the common free), and no apparent goals that I can see, beyond the academic/pastor world. Contrast what you 'could' combine with fun-to-use, wow library (already), functions to easily support discussion (no, not the obtruse FL community), functions tied to specific denominations (including bulk-buys, as many suggest), and functions to support daily Christian inter-acting.

And not even that hard. That's the surprise.


Posts 2948
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 5 2019 8:04 AM

Denise:

SineNomine:

Denise:

You're wondering, what's this got to do with Logos?? 

I just wonder if Logos is riding a horse meant for the late-1800s (Biblical slicing and dicing). I believe Logos would do best in the Church, and the excitement (vs the pastor's office), but each upgrade seems to improve that 1800s experience, just a little more.

What would you, Denise, have FL do instead?

Now, SineNomine, you can't have that limited an imagination. If I remember correctly a few years back, Logos yanked the cord (and many peoples' lives) on developing tools for the Catholic folks. I thought the Catholics probably had the best chance for a Christian-learning model. The Baptists even more. 'Churches.'

I'm not trying to offend you, but (so far), all the participants can think of is one-way sermons (complete with illustrations). Plus more and more searches for counting instances of take-your-pick ... it's amazing. Something, I doubt the Pastoral writer ever had in mind for folks' eternal salvation.

I'm not offended. I'm still hoping that you will answer my question.

Posts 9922
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 5 2019 9:08 AM

SineNomine:

... my question ...

Well, first, each has opinions, mine just an opinion. And sitting outside the company, not in. Plus, whether they survive or not (Mr Bezo's point) is a customer issue. 30 years is average.

At L4, they chose a market and expensive solution (the platforms). As they moved forward, they're faced with trying to capture a larger share of a declining market ... BW already. Accordance is more heavily discounting. The Bible colleges and seminaries may work for a while. But most importantly (my point), the Christian world is changing. It's an opportunity.

Here, I'm guessing, but the expensive shift to web-driven (L8) also solves the L4 problem ... expense of coding, platform support, etc. Whoever is doing the web part seems quite talented. But they're tied to layers of legacy features I doubt many use (per feature). Even the forum has limited knowlegability.

They seemed to have recently shifted gears on their server support. Yes, Libby finally is alone in a cold dark world (joking). But, in between the desktop, mobiles, the web, Proclaim, and the new church management, the servers represent 'the gold'.

In my mind, they're on the cusp of a widened future. Or same old same old. And the churches are similarly at a point of what next?

The key, in my mind, is development cost ... FL is close to solving that (guessing). That opens the door to much easier entry vehicles for church members,  integrating not only official church functions, but Christian functions. As MJ aludes to above, 'behavior'.  Integrating home school. There's a long list, but most of the support pieces appear to be moving into place (at FL).


Posts 26014
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 5 2019 2:52 PM

SineNomine:
I'm still hoping that you will answer my question.

Allow me to butt in ...

  • think about how scripture is used at the individual level especially noting the actual goals of such study - which vary by individual, their situation, their culture, their religious believes
  • think about how scripture is ideally used for the same individuals
  • think about how scripture is actually used in your church: how is/can Logos enhance that use for casual laity, laity with specific passions and involvements, super-devout laity, super-academic laity, church leaders - religious ed, plant management, liturgical planning, financial, social justice ..., professional staff, ordained staff?
  • think about how scripture is ideally used in your church for the same groups
  • think about how scripture is ideally studied in secular schools and in denominational seminaries, how it understands other religions in the global arena,
  • think about how technology could move that ideal and what advances have left in the dust piles of history that should be reclaimed

Now draw an imaginary circle around the portions that Logos tries to do? tries to do but does poorly? tries to do an succeeds barely? does a stellar job of?

Now think of Denise as Dona Quixote asking if Logos knows specifically which of the above items are specific goals?

I think of it as the gulf between the materials written for the high school senior/college freshman and the thrust of Logos. My congregation knows a whole lot more about narrative theology and literary criticism than they know about discourse analysis. My congregation knows a whole lot more about intertextual interpretation in/through worship than they do about specific Hebrew constructs. My congregation knows a whole lot more about praying/singing the psalms than. . .

At the beginning of Bible software, the Logos focus made sense - one used the computer for what the computer could do well within the space and time constraints. What computers can do has changed dramatically with the growth in natural language processing, knowledge management, and artificial intelligence. Has the vision of Bible software kept up?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2948
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 5 2019 4:45 PM

Denise:
Well, first, each has opinions, mine just an opinion.

Indeed, and although MJ has given her answer to my question, I'm still waiting for yours. I understand that you want FL to stop doing various things it has been doing, but I'm asking what you want FL to do instead.

Posts 2948
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 5 2019 5:00 PM

MJ. Smith:

Allow me to butt in ...

  • think about how scripture is used at the individual level especially noting the actual goals of such study - which vary by individual, their situation, their culture, their religious believes
  • think about how scripture is ideally used for the same individuals
  • think about how scripture is actually used in your church: how is/can Logos enhance that use for casual laity, laity with specific passions and involvements, super-devout laity, super-academic laity, church leaders - religious ed, plant management, liturgical planning, financial, social justice ..., professional staff, ordained staff?
  • think about how scripture is ideally used in your church for the same groups
  • think about how scripture is ideally studied in secular schools and in denominational seminaries, how it understands other religions in the global arena,
  • think about how technology could move that ideal and what advances have left in the dust piles of history that should be reclaimed

Now draw an imaginary circle around the portions that Logos tries to do? tries to do but does poorly? tries to do an succeeds barely? does a stellar job of?

These are, I think, very good questions. If I could envision some kind of FL product that journalists would use, my answers to some of them would me much less depressing.

MJ. Smith:
I think of it as the gulf between the materials written for the high school senior/college freshman and the thrust of Logos. My congregation knows a whole lot more about narrative theology and literary criticism than they know about discourse analysis. My congregation knows a whole lot more about intertextual interpretation in/through worship than they do about specific Hebrew constructs. My congregation knows a whole lot more about praying/singing the psalms than. . .

I'm used to congregations that know hardly anything about any of these, but your point is well-made. As an aside, I've been lobbying intermittently on these forums for base packages with zero grammatical/linguistic stuff for some years now.

MJ. Smith:
At the beginning of Bible software, the Logos focus made sense - one used the computer for what the computer could do well within the space and time constraints. What computers can do has changed dramatically with the growth in natural language processing, knowledge management, and artificial intelligence. Has the vision of Bible software kept up?

And neither has the median parishioner.

Page 1 of 2 (37 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS