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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, May 15 2021 9:01 AM

I’m not clear on what FL can or can’t do with the licensing agreement for the LOTH (I hear some apps have run into pitfalls with this). But if it is possible, I’d like something like what you did with the Lectionary:

where you can click on the links to go to the Psalter and Proper for the Hours of a day, much like we can go to the prayers and readings in the Missal.

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 9:17 AM
I’m also a bit dismayed to discover that the First Reading in the Office of Readings is only a link to the verses in the preferred Bible. I assume that this is also due to restrictions but it feels like an unfinished product. I would have bought Verbum 9 anyway so I’m not clamoring for a refund. But if I had bought it separately, I would have been annoyed.

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 9:22 AM

Here’s an example. The text of the First Reading for today is entirely absent except for the link.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 2:43 PM

David Wanat:
I’d like something like what you did with the Lectionary:

The Missal is a closer match to the functionality required to make a "coherent" LOTH. An equivalent homepage card for LOTH would most likely be a link to the starting point for each each of the hours and for the offeratory.

David Wanat:
First Reading in the Office of Readings is only a link to the verses in the preferred Bible.

I am certain that the copyright for the Bible text is a separate copyright than that for the LOTH. The contract for the rights to the LOTH probably did not include rights to the Bible text. I am toying with possibilities that can be shared that would make the LOTH behave more like the Universalis version ... it is one of those "almost simple" problems where most of it is easily done and then there are the thorny, rally thorny, parts.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 2:50 PM

MJ. Smith:

David Wanat:
I’d like something like what you did with the Lectionary:

The Missal is a closer match to the functionality required to make a "coherent" LOTH. An equivalent homepage card for LOTH would most likely be a link to the starting point for each each of the hours and for the offeratory.

David Wanat:
First Reading in the Office of Readings is only a link to the verses in the preferred Bible.

I am certain that the copyright for the Bible text is a separate copyright than that for the LOTH. The contract for the rights to the LOTH probably did not include rights to the Bible text. I am toying with possibilities that can be shared that would make the LOTH behave more like the Universalis version ... it is one of those "almost simple" problems where most of it is easily done and then there are the thorny, rally thorny, parts.

Yes, I assume this was due to restrictions. I recall that the “Divine Office“ app ran into problems.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 17 2021 9:34 PM

The current implementation makes the same demands on the user as purchasing the four volumes in dead tree format. It is reasonably easy to set up bookmarks as if they were ribbons ... and where we any of us be in the Missal or LOTH without ribbons? I have a couple of ideas as to how to make them more novice friendly without running into copyright issues as I am not Faithlife.  But I'm in the middle of some other things so I won't be getting to it immediately ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 5:31 AM

MJ. Smith:
 I am certain that the copyright for the Bible text is a separate copyright than that for the LOTH. 

It might also be nice if we could set one Bible to link with the LOTH and another as our "favorite" one without having to reset "favorite bible" every time we use LOTH

[[and maybe also link Bibles to other resources. Again with out having to reset "favorite bible" every time]]

[[or Just give us a command that sets ""favorite bible" making it real easy to change as maybe what we want is "favorite bible"  for this resource]]

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 5:34 AM

MJ. Smith:
An equivalent homepage card for LOTH would most likely be a link to the starting point for each each of the hours and for the offeratory.

There is no Offertory in LotH.

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 5:40 AM

David Ames:

MJ. Smith:
 I am certain that the copyright for the Bible text is a separate copyright than that for the LOTH. 

It might also be nice if we could set one Bible to link with the LOTH and another as our "favorite" one without having to reset "favorite bible" every time we use LOTH

[[and maybe also link Bibles to other resources. Again with out having to reset "favorite bible" every time]]

[[or Just give us a command that sets ""favorite bible" making it real easy to change as maybe what we want is "favorite bible"  for this resource]]

I‘m a bit perplexed about the decision to release the set this way. If the Bible readings are just links to our preferred Bible, instead of the approved ICEL text, then I don’t think it can be considered a complete product or one approved  for official use. Unless I’m overlooking something.

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Kevin Clemens | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 5:48 AM

David Ames:
It might also be nice if we could set one Bible to link with the LOTH and another as our "favorite" one without having to reset "favorite bible" every time we use LOTH

Would creating a custom layout for LOTH with the desired Bible work? On said Bible, you could set "Send Hyperlinks Here"

Posts 269
Kevin Clemens | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 5:58 AM

David Wanat:
If the Bible readings are just links to our preferred Bible, instead of the approved ICEL text, then I don’t think it can be considered a complete product or one approved  for official use

Agreed, this seems like it will be a hang-up for those who are obligated to pray the hours. 

I'm hoping that the same licensing issues will be avoided when it comes to the Liturgia Horarum

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 6:12 AM

Kevin Clemens:

David Wanat:
If the Bible readings are just links to our preferred Bible, instead of the approved ICEL text, then I don’t think it can be considered a complete product or one approved  for official use

Agreed, this seems like it will be a hang-up for those who are obligated to pray the hours. 

I'm hoping that the same licensing issues will be avoided when it comes to the Liturgia Horarum

I imagine it could be easier as they wouldn’t have to deal with the ICEL permissions, which I seem to recall are more difficult.

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David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 8:27 AM

I cannot understand why hyperlinks couldn't have been made, for example, selecting the DATE then being brought to a choice of the Ordinary for the Hour wished to pray, then (as in today, to the Tuesday for the 7th Sunday of Easter) to the Morning Prayer, then and this is most annoying, the lack of a hyperlink on CANTICLE OF ZECHARIAH and be able to pray the Hours easily, not flipping around as is just needed in paper, but with electronic resources, it can be done, and should be done to have hyperlinks to eliminate bookmarks and ribbons. Right now, I find paper and ribbons easier than what I'm seeing as a real mess of what so far is nearly useless to me.  If this is the result of others not licensing Logos/Verbum/Faithlife what they nee need to produce this, they shouldn't have refused, they should have joined in to make this a good thing and an improvement to our prayer life.

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 8:38 AM

Yes, I gave it a try, but until these things get resolved, I’ll have to stick with the Divine Office app.

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Kevin Clemens | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 10:56 AM

For the past few years, I've used the Breviario Digitale edition of the Liturgia Horarum (scroll down on this page for a sample of the navigation pages). Each volume is a separate pdf file, where each page of the physical text is represented in identical form along with a simple navigation bar along the right side (see below).

Liturgia Horarum Sample Page

These nav bar headings take you to fairly basic pages from which one can easily navigate around the text to the desired section. This doesn't do a whole lot more than the Table of Contents view of LOTH in Verbum, but perhaps something similar with quick access links to high-frequency places in the text (e.g. Canticle of Zechariah, Canticle of Mary, etc) would make for easier use. 

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 11:13 AM

David Wanat:
If the Bible readings are just links to our preferred Bible, instead of the approved ICEL text, then I don’t think it can be considered a complete product or one approved  for official use.

Correct. No one obligated to pray the LotH, or who intends to pray the LotH properly, can use the present edition.

David Wanat:
I imagine it could be easier as they wouldn’t have to deal with the ICEL permissions, which I seem to recall are more difficult.

Notice what is missing, and look at the copyright statements included in LotH itself. The NAB isn't ICEL, for example.

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 12:08 PM

SineNomine:

Notice what is missing, and look at the copyright statements included in LotH itself. The NAB isn't ICEL, for example.

Yeah, I was probably too vague, and perhaps I went off on a tangent. I was thinking more about the ICEL permissions for what countries were allowed to  dIstribute  their translations. There have been complaints about that in the past.

My thought was the Latin would not be under their limitations.

Sorry for the imprecision.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 1:24 PM

SineNomine:
Correct. No one obligated to pray the LotH, or who intends to pray the LotH properly, can use the present edition.

What?! Can you explain why you think this is true?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 1:56 PM

As I understand it, the official use does require use of the approved Bible translation in a country. The imprimatur for the US apparently involves these sections:

if true, then the FL version, providing links to the preferred Bible instead of the NAB 1970, seems to indicate that the imprimatur does not apply. That won’t impact private use of course.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 18 2021 2:45 PM

David Wanat:
if true, then the FL version, providing links to the preferred Bible instead of the NAB 1970, seems to indicate that the imprimatur does not apply. That won’t impact private use of course.

Hmmm ... since the NAB (and NABRE) are easily made the preferred Bible, this appears to me to be a non-issue. However, if FL makes a "harness" that pulls in the readings, it should provide an option to state the preferred translation.  However, the imprimatur has little to do with the legitimacy of the prayers and whether or not they meet an individual's obligations. This information appears in the General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours (the equivalent of the GIRM for the Missal).

For example, one may change the scriptural reading:

46. There is freedom to choose—especially in a celebration with the people—a longer Scripture reading, either from the Office of Readings or the Lectionary for Mass, particularly texts which for some reason have not been used. In addition, there is nothing to prevent the use from time to time of a more suitable reading, in accordance with the rules laid down in nos. 248–249 and 251.

International Commission on English in the Liturgy, The Liturgy of the Hours with Supplement, vol. 1 (New York: Catholic Book Publishing Corp., 1975–1992), 44–45.

In some parts of the country, one sees a mingling of the Mexican and American LOTH - especially in the hymns which must (theoretically) be approved.

David Wanat:
official use does require use of the approved Bible translation in a country

There are often multiple translations -- and one can appeal to the practice of the cathedral which in my part of the country is heavily influenced by the Canadian practices.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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