Printing out of Logos for Mac

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David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 6 2010 3:47 PM

In fact, I'm working on the design and architecture for the Mac version of this feature right now. As stated earlier, we didn't feel that a lack of printing support was enough to hold up the release of the product, but that doesn't mean we won't ever add it.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 6 2010 9:08 PM

Pat,

I still don't get it.

Pat Flanakin:
There is a huge push in the environmental conservation and other secular movements to go "paperless."  However, this is simply unrealistic since the paramount purpose of God's Word is to get it communicated to the lost, as well as believers.  Logos helps to do this definitely, but it is not the sole source of this communication and should make every effort to provide as many avenues of communicating the word, most of all the printed word, to its customers who are those trained, training or seeking to understand and communicate God's Word better to the lost and growing believers.

From what I understand from the paragraph above you are making the case for the contents of the Bible to be promulgated by written explanation in printed format?

To do this effectively it needs to be well presented, attractive to the eye and draw the reader into wanting to continue beyond the first couple of words of text. All this takes time, planning, and a capable word processing suite.

Any 'busy pastor' who hasn't got time to cut and paste hasn't time to do the job at all.

Even in the notes for sermons that I prepare the number of cuts and pastes are legion!

Logos' print engine may indeed do a good job at rendering the ancient languages but what you see on the screen is not necessarily what you get on the printed page. Word processors are the tools for the job. Logos' print engine will be rendering the letters in a similar way to that which a word processor does otherwise you will get no control over font size.

That said, unless the print facility allows you to top and or tail your Hebrew extract it will sit lonely and unexplained on the page.

All rather pointless it seems to me.

On the other hand if the Developers are sitting there devising a fully fledged word processing panel to sit in the Logos Box then I will be very disappointed - after all how fast will it scroll?

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 492
R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 6 2010 9:39 PM

Okay, Logos 4/Mac doesn't have the ability to print yet, and that is what it is. 

However, I believe it's a bit patronizing to completely downplay the need or desire to print natively from an application. The ability to copy text and paste it into a word processor is a good and reasonable interim solution while we wait for the feature to be added, but obviously, it's not ideal.

Personally, I print in the traditional means very rarely these days, regardless of the application. But I tell you what I do instead--I create PDF files. Often it's to send an article or a passage to my iPad (keep in mind that not every Logos title is available for iOS yet), or maybe I simply want to file an isolated selection of text separately. Maybe I need to share (within reasonable fair use limits, mind you) an article with someone else.

The Mac OS has had a PDF layer built into the OS and accessible through the system print dialogue box since the OS X beta in 2000. This may not be normal practice yet for recent switchers from Windows, but for those of us who've been using the Mac for a while, PDF creation is regular practice. If I send a document to a class or to a committee at church, I never send it in something like a .doc file, even though I would assume that anyone would be able to open it if I did. Rather, I send a PDF. Again, this is standard practice for Mac users for the past decade. 

Thus, while it's not the most pressing issue around, and I'm thankful there are reasonable workarounds for it, I do find it odd that Logos/Mac cannot perform this very basic function that's built into the OS itself. Printing and PDF creation are features of OS X; I'm no programmer, but it seems to me they shouldn't be features that have to be added to an application running in OS X. 

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Jesse Frame | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 5:53 AM

i understand all the possible ways and uses for printing/exporting to pdf.

but neither of the "answers" have really said WHAT you print and why it  is more useful to do it straight out of L4. i guess i just dont see the point of extracting text from L4 to put into pdf just for the sake of having it by itself??? doesnt that defeat the purpose of all of the amazing features and usefulness of L4? and what would you be printing from L4 that any church committee would need?

the time factor - like maybe 10 seconds saved?

greek/hebrew fonts - i dont have an issue with this and im using an old version of pages

pdf reading on other devices - so far the only valid (if kinda weak) point

im still with you mr. binks, i just dont get it.

Jesse FrameNew Mission Systems International, Australia

Posts 1246
David Mitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 6:55 AM

R. Mansfield:
Thus, while it's not the most pressing issue around, and I'm thankful there are reasonable workarounds for it, I do find it odd that Logos/Mac cannot perform this very basic function that's built into the OS itself. Printing and PDF creation are features of OS X; I'm no programmer, but it seems to me they shouldn't be features that have to be added to an application running in OS X. 

Here's what I've already said with respect to this in another thread:

David Mitchell:
Just a few things to consider that can be involved: finding out what printers are connected to the system, discovering what paper sizes are available, determining whether any attached printer supports fun stuff like double-sided printing, ensuring that margins are large enough that nothing gets clipped as a result of the physical limitations of the printer, paginating content so that lines of text aren't clipped near page boundaries, ensuring that images and other visual elements are printed at an acceptable DPI (what looks good on the screen will look blurry on the page)…

So Cocoa does give you something in the way of printing, but it's far from the drop-in feature that you make it out to be.

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Posts 492
R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 7:06 AM

David Mitchell:

So Cocoa does give you something in the way of printing, but it's far from the drop-in feature that you make it out to be.

I don't doubt that, David, and my real point was with the patronizing attitude that some of the users (not directed at developers) have had toward those who want to print.

Really, I shouldn't have even included that last paragraph. I have no doubt that printing is a complex issue, but regardless, Logos/Mac is the only program (from my immediate recollection) on my computer that involves text and graphics that does not print. That's odd to me, regardless, but I agree that you made the right decision to release the software even though this functionality wasn't ready as many will never directly use it anyway.

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R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 7:18 AM

Jesse Frame:

i understand all the possible ways and uses for printing/exporting to pdf.

but neither of the "answers" have really said WHAT you print and why it  is more useful to do it straight out of L4. i guess i just dont see the point of extracting text from L4 to put into pdf just for the sake of having it by itself??? doesnt that defeat the purpose of all of the amazing features and usefulness of L4? and what would you be printing from L4 that any church committee would need?

the time factor - like maybe 10 seconds saved?

greek/hebrew fonts - i dont have an issue with this and im using an old version of pages

pdf reading on other devices - so far the only valid (if kinda weak) point

im still with you mr. binks, i just dont get it.

This is exactly the kind of patronizing attitude I was talking about. The fact that you don't get it and the fact that you don't need to print and the fact that you're happy copying and pasting doesn't diminish the value of printing (or creating PDFs) for other users.

You sit in judgment of my desire to print and scratch your head as to why I'd want to create PDFs of articles, but you know nothing of my workflow. 

Maybe I've read a good article on stewardship and want to send just that to the Finance Committee at church.

For my dissertation, I keep a virtual file cabinet of articles in DEVONthink Pro. In the old days, the fact that I had an entire journal in print and ready access to it anytime I wanted to in a brick and mortar library did not preclude me from making photocopies of just the article I needed and storing it in a physical filing cabinet. Even now, I often may narrow a topic down to a handful of articles which might be in electronic form, and choose to store them separately in DEVONthink in my dissertation database. It's helpful to have them separate from the whole for my purposes. 

As for the time factor of copying and pasting, a supposed ten seconds, over and over throughout the day adds up, especially when it's often more than ten seconds when text and/or margins have to be readjusted. Again, copy and paste is a very handy temporary solution, but native printing is obviously ideal or more programs would neglect it. 

If you don't need it, that's fine. If you still don't get it, well, I don't think there's any more I can say on the subject.

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 7:52 AM

Printing and exporting is on its way to L4 Mac.

Individuals work different ways and that needs to be recongnized.

When a feature is not available currently, others should try and help them with work arounds for the time being. Perhaps, as I do not know, attempts to understand and offer a temporary or permanent work around can be misconstrued as patronizing. Perhaps the benefit of the doubt would be in order given the obvious weakness in communicating in this format.

With that said, printing should be a part of this program and is on its way.

I apologize for butting into this discussion as I in no way intend to offend anyone.

Posts 492
R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 8:05 AM

John Fidel:

When a feature is not available currently, others should try and help them with work arounds for the time being. Perhaps, as I do not know, attempts to understand and offer a temporary or permanent work around can be misconstrued as patronizing. Perhaps the benefit of the doubt would be in order given the obvious weakness in communicating in this format.

John, thanks for your thoughts. This isn't as large of an issue for me as what it probably looks like. I came to the defense of the original poster because of the way I felt some were responding to him. Offering a temporary or permanent workaround is great as are genuine attempts to understand the issue. But the actual downplaying of his need to print with statements like "Any 'busy pastor' who hasn't got time to cut and paste hasn't time to do the job at all" and "it all seems pointless" and "I just don't get it" moves beyond the realm of charitable helpfulness to mere condescension and best and unnecessary judging at worst. 

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 8:08 AM

I agree the replies could have been worded better. I understand your concern and am offering a "work around" to the communication issue. Perhaps there was intent to patronize, perhaps just poor communication. I find most people posting are trying to help and perhaps you are correct in your assessment of the matter.

 

PS,  I need to quit using perhaps... more coffee!

Posts 45
Jesse Frame | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 8:21 AM

please let me apologize if i came across as condescending or patronizing - i meant neither.

i sincerely was looking for some examples of real world uses of printing from logos, not just "it doesn't print? why not?" with the explanation of your collection of information for a dissertation, and how and why you would want to do that via another software i now have a concrete reason and a real world use for printing by a normal, non-hypothetical, user.  i was simply trying to peak into your (and others who think printing is vital to any software) workflow.

one of the most important and useful features of a forum like this, besides just troubleshooting, is the ability to share workflow ideas and options. you may have a really great system of organizing and using your digital library that maximizes Logos - if so, i want in on that! im not trying to put down or belittle anyone, i just want to make sure im getting the most out of my Logos experience and even more, the most out of my bible study and preparation for preaching/teaching.

the only way to get answers is to ask questions - and if i dont ask, you probably wouldnt tell

ps - thanks for the tip on DEVONthink, ive never even heard of it and it looks pretty interesting

Jesse FrameNew Mission Systems International, Australia

Posts 492
R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 8:30 AM

Apology accepted. Thanks, Jesse. 

As for DEVONthink, you're welcome! I imagine that it would be especially beneficial to pastors and teachers. I commented a bit more on it yesterday in this thread. I increasingly find new ways to use it by itself and with other programs. 

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 2:10 PM

Thank you!

R. Mansfield:

For my dissertation, I keep a virtual file cabinet of articles in DEVONthink Pro. In the old days, the fact that I had an entire journal in print and ready access to it anytime I wanted to in a brick and mortar library did not preclude me from making photocopies of just the article I needed and storing it in a physical filing cabinet. Even now, I often may narrow a topic down to a handful of articles which might be in electronic form, and choose to store them separately in DEVONthink in my dissertation database. It's helpful to have them separate from the whole for my purposes. 

As for the time factor of copying and pasting, a supposed ten seconds, over and over throughout the day adds up, especially when it's often more than ten seconds when text and/or margins have to be readjusted. Again, copy and paste is a very handy temporary solution, but native printing is obviously ideal or more programs would neglect it. 

If you don't need it, that's fine. If you still don't get it, well, I don't think there's any more I can say on the subject.

Now I have one answer to the question that I thought that was reasonably posed towards the beginning of this thread.

Perhaps it was wrong to ask what people would actually do with the results of printing rather than why they wanted it included.

It certainly has led to a good deal of misunderstanding.

And now 'I do get' how you would practically use printing.

It is a use that had not occurred to me and now you have improved my education. For that I am much obliged. 

 

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 119
Ross Durham | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 11 2010 7:13 PM

I am looking forward to being able to print.  For NT Greek I want to cut and paste so I can create a grammatical flow, but what I loved in Logos 3 PC was printing BHS and ESV in parallel versions on the same page, working with the text and then bring this to the pulpit.  This saved time, gave me neat clear fonts and layout.  I can't wait for Logos 4 Mac to enable me to do this again.  I switched from PC to Mac so I am out of luck till it is enabled in Mac.

Posts 302
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 11 2010 7:30 PM

Mike Binks:

Now I have one answer to the question that I thought that was reasonably posed towards the beginning of this thread.

Perhaps it was wrong to ask what people would actually do with the results of printing rather than why they wanted it included.

It certainly has led to a good deal of misunderstanding.

And now 'I do get' how you would practically use printing.

Something I have used the print/export feature on the windows side that is pretty cool is exporting verses that I have marked up and highlighted as I studied through a text.  Or if I make a visual filter that also exports over into word.  Then I have it in a document i can easily print and take with me.  

Posts 302
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 11 2010 7:32 PM

Mike Binks:

Now I have one answer to the question that I thought that was reasonably posed towards the beginning of this thread.

Perhaps it was wrong to ask what people would actually do with the results of printing rather than why they wanted it included.

It certainly has led to a good deal of misunderstanding.

And now 'I do get' how you would practically use printing.

Something I have used the print/export feature on the windows side that is pretty cool is exporting verses that I have marked up and highlighted as I studied through a text.  Or if I make a visual filter that also exports over into word.  Then I have it in a document i can easily print and take with me.  

Posts 73
Brian Wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 2 2010 2:15 AM

I am looking at getting a kindle and hope to be able to export some of my books from logos 4 mac to the kindle to read while traveling. 

The spirit of a pilgrim greatly facilitates praying. An earth-bound, earth-satisfied spirit cannot pray.--E. M. Bounds

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 2 2010 12:03 PM

Brian Wilson:

I am looking at getting a kindle and hope to be able to export some of my books from logos 4 mac to the kindle to read while traveling. 

Welcome Big Smile

Logos 4 Mac does not yet have printing/exporting capability for Resources.  Wiki page shows PC capabilities => http://wiki.logos.com/Print$2fExport

Logos 4 Mac does have option to copy and paste text - create *.txt file - download to Kindle for reading.  Also can copy and paste into Textedit, save as RTF, email attachment to free kindle conversion - then download converted document to Kindle.

Living and learning - Kindle can use computer to download documents to device.  Appears Kindle wireless delivery is $ 0.15 per MB.

By the way, iPad can run Kindle application as well as Logos (choose Library resources for offline use).

For future reference, starting a new Post with new Topic is OK - forum does not have limit on number of post topics.  Replying to existing post has potential to be missed.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 45
Jesse Frame | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 3 2010 8:31 PM

i've discovered a reason that i would personally want to be able to print/export - clippings

what a useful tool, only problem is that it's hard to put to use right now without some sort of export feature. 

Jesse FrameNew Mission Systems International, Australia

Posts 1875
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 4 2010 5:06 AM

Jesse Frame:

i've discovered a reason that i would personally want to be able to print/export - clippings

what a useful tool, only problem is that it's hard to put to use right now without some sort of export feature. 

Yes Absolutely agree, Jesse. It's what I raised the other day in this thread: Help with Clippings please.

Good to hear in that thread that it's on its way! Big Smile

Every blessing

Alan

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8

MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8

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