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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2009 4:58 AM

Jules lamond:

I am not a defender for anyone, but you make the point for Jefferson that you do not understand the text for which you confidently assert so much knowledge about (1 Tim 1:7). 

If he reads this post, he must me praying that you be swift to hear and slow to speak (James 1:19)

Instead of trying to belittle, examine truthfully what he said. As a matter-of-fact, examine what I have said before so being quick to respond.

Cheers

Brilliant exegesis i could not fault it, it was well argued & logically put together, much appreciated. However i think you should have allowed your exegesis to do the talking for you. What was objectionable was your above quote, it was not necessary your exegesis made the point, your point well.

Your in Christ

Sir T.

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2009 7:27 AM

Jules lamond:
I was watching this post and I just realized that we have been misunderstanding what Jefferson said and implied.

I have been seriously struggling with what he (Jefferson) said and he drives home the point that God has said "the how, the who, the where, the when and the what" of singing in worship to Him. I find it difficult to argue against this simple common sense approach.

Jules lamond:
I will honestly concede that we are in error to use musical instruments in praise to God.

I must say that I am very impressed. In just a few days you have developed a theological viewpoint that would take, most people, years of catechism in the Church of Christ denomination to develop. Very impressive indeed...

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 3854
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2009 7:30 AM

A request -

This thread has moved far afield from the request for a NASB interlinear Bible - the theological discussion and such is not about LOGOS but about individual concerns and concerns.  Can I ask all participants to refrain from needing to make "one more comment".  Much has been said.  It is time to stop if we are to going to ask others to adhere to the forum policies of being about the Libronix and Logos tools.

Perhaps we need a separate forum to which we can move these kinds of discussions.  Those that want to participate in theology, exegesis, etc., can subscribe, those who want to discuss Libronix/Logos can ignore it.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2009 7:30 AM

Jules lamond:
we are in error to use musical instruments in praise to God

This is not a command from God, or Christ. Take Spurgeon for example, he spoke about that he loved the simplicity of a capella, and he believed that simplicity was a sign of maturity. But one thing he loved more was freedom in Christ, as in his words about musical instruments:

"We do not need them, they would hinder than help our praise but if others are otherwise minded, are they not living in gospel liberty?"

To look at it inductively, Scripture never says not to use instruments, on the contrary, God's specifically states, in several places, in his Holy Words, to use instruments, or that instruments are being used. To try and infer otherwise by proof texting, is reading theology into the text.

Galatians 3:23-25 (NIV)
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2009 7:38 AM

Floyd Johnson:
This thread has moved far afield from the request for a NASB interlinear Bible

My apologies to all, I have gotten carried away.

In Christ,

Paul

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2009 7:44 AM

Wouldn't a interlinear be more useful for a popular translation that isn't quite as literal (ie. NIV, HCSB, NLT, etc)?

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 2745
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2009 8:25 AM

Paul Golder:

Wouldn't a interlinear be more useful for a popular translation that isn't quite as literal (ie. NIV, HCSB, NLT, etc)?

 

Good, safe landing in the original subject Smile

Bohuslav

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2009 8:27 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

I come from a very strict Christian background originally. On one hand I fully respect that, in a sense, clear-cut way of approaching the Scriptures, however I have seen on the other hand, unfruitful and divisive tendencies in the Body of Christ, when that approach is applied, also in many other matters. It is not only a matter of instruments, but many other things like head coverings etc. It touches IMHO whole way of how we do our hermeneutics. IMHO we would have to define clearly what we understand with the term of "worship". Is it that time in our services we use or not use our voices and instruments? Is it also my everyday attitude of obedience to God? Is it done with my physical voice or "in Spirit and Truth"? Can we, or even should we, apply also such scriptures as  Rom 14:5 and 22? How can we fulfill the commands from verses like the following: 2 Tim 4:13? Literally? By making a pilgrimage? Or by trying to understand the spirit of the scripture in more complex way? Is really our singing and praising of the Lord so much different from what David did? Why God would so much change his attitude to the instruments? Isn't it similar matter to our approach to buildings? In the OT the Temple was a building, in our case buildings are just a "roof over the heads of the real Temple of the Holy Spirit" as I believe Bible defines our church buildings today. But it does not mean we are not allowed to use buildings in a proper understanding of their role. IMHO, I believe we can have the same approach to the instruments. If they help us to just sing from the bottom of our hearts in all sincerity and humility and honor and understanding that it is not our pleasure, what is the goal, but God who is the receiver of our praises, what wrong it could be? But again, I respect the other way of seeing the thing and I am open to change my understanding if I see the message of the Scripture showing that direction. IMHO all the arguments given here so far (and all of them I have heard from other sources on the subject) have not convinced me so, but, let us stay Brothers.

6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since she gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For tnone of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, uwhether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 14:6-8). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

 

...  amen  .....  What he said ........

Now if I only had a NASB Reverse Interlinear in Logos I could possibly determine if the harps in heaven are more or less symbolic than the tree of life.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2009 9:18 AM

Ted Hans:
I think if you read her in context where she explains in the body of her exegesis her meaning.
She means that the" harp" = "praise" see below. Some say it refers to worship, praise or to prophesy. 

 

  QUESTION—What does a κιθάρα ‘harp’ symbolize?

 

A harp is a symbol of the worship of God [EC, Wal]. In Revelation it is always associated with the praise of God [TNTC]. In Psalm 33:2 the harp is associated with praise [Ld, NIC]

Trail, R. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of Revelation 1-11 (2nd ed.) (140). Dallas, TX: SIL International

I've long thought there was something fundamentally wrong with SIL.  This proves the point.  He's way off base.  My statement still stands.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 18 2009 11:09 PM

George Somsel:

Ted Hans:

I think if you read her in context where she explains in the body of her exegesis her meaning.
She means that the" harp" = "praise" see below. Some say it refers to worship, praise or to prophesy. 

 

  QUESTION—What does a κιθάρα ‘harp’ symbolize?

 

A harp is a symbol of the worship of God [EC, Wal]. In Revelation it is always associated with the praise of God [TNTC]. In Psalm 33:2 the harp is associated with praise [Ld, NIC]

Trail, R. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of Revelation 1-11 (2nd ed.) (140). Dallas, TX: SIL International

 

I've long thought there was something fundamentally wrong with SIL.  This proves the point.  He's way off base.  My statement still stands.

George,

slow down

A better familiarly with the resource quoted would have avoided an unnecessary criticism of a very helpful tool

the Exegetical Summary series as its name indicates merely summarizes exegetical conclusions from various commentaries and grammars

if you have a problem, it is not will SIL, it is with Morris' TNTC, Mounce's NICNT, Ladd's Revelation, Thomas' WEC, and Walwoord's commentary

True, those esteemed scholars from various theological traditions could be all wrong and you the only one seeing the light, but SIL cannot be blamed for it

as to the exegetical point, people might need more convincing that a mere George said so

Alain

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 12:45 AM

Alain Maashe:

A better familiarly with the resource quoted would have avoided an unnecessary criticism of a very helpful tool

the Exegetical Summary series as its name indicates merely summarizes exegetical conclusions from various commentaries and grammars

if you have a problem, it is not will SIL, it is with Morris' TNTC, Mounce's NICNT, Ladd's Revelation, Thomas' WEC, and Walwoord's commentary

True, those esteemed scholars from various theological traditions could be all wrong and you the only one seeing the light, but SIL cannot be blamed for it

as to the exegetical point, people might need more convincing that a mere George said so

Alain

A reading of the text cited will reveal that the cithers were used in the act of worship.  They were not symbols for worship just as the singing is not a symbol of worship but constitutes a part of the very act of worship.  The cithers are thus real instruments (in the scene) .  If you wish to talk of symbolism, then you might talk of Re 14.2

καὶ ἤκουσα φωνὴν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ὡς φωνὴν ὑδάτων πολλῶν καὶ ὡς φωνὴν βροντῆς μεγάλης, καὶ ἡ φωνὴ ἣν ἤκουσα ὡς κιθαρῳδῶν κιθαριζόντων ἐν ταῖς κιθάραις αὐτῶν.

I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of a multitude of waters and like mighty thunder.  The sound I heard was like cither-players cithering on their cithers.  Even here, however, the symbolism is not simply that of worship.  It is the heaven's great "Amen" to the fulfillment of the number of the 144,000 as they suffered martydom.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2855
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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:23 AM

Alain Maashe:

the Exegetical Summary series as its name indicates merely summarizes exegetical conclusions from various commentaries and grammars

if you have a problem, it is not will SIL, it is with Morris' TNTC, Mounce's NICNT, Ladd's Revelation, Thomas' WEC, and Walwoord's commentary

Great to hear from you i was just wondering i have not seen Alain's post lately & i get this. I trust you are well, do take care.

Every Blessings

Ted 

 

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:19 PM

After reading all of the fascinating responses and trying to understand how people develop doctrine; I am astounded at what is determined by what the Bible does not say, verses what it actually says.

 

For example; Revelation has several songs song by different groups of people and most of the time the heavenly beings sing the choirs only, they do have a song they sing in Revelation 14 that only the 144,000 Jews can learn.

 

Back to the song that the 24 elders sing; the verses give a hint of who they are, just like the rest of the songs that are sung in Revelation, it is a fascinating study if you are so inclined. For this discussion I will only highlight Revelation 5:9, 10; we know they were ransomed by with the blood of the lamb from every tribe, language and nation and they were made kings and priests.

 

I do not believe we can call these folks heavenly beings in the sense of angles because they come from the nations and are ransomed with the blood of the lamb; note, there are only three kings and priests in the entire Bible, Melchizedek king of Salem, Jesus Christ and the Body of Christ.

 

Notice that the heavenly beings only sing the choirs in Revelation 5:11-12 and then in Revelation 5:13-14 every creature in heaven and on earth and under the sea join in for the last part of the song.

 

As far as the harp goes; according to the Greek, it is a harp!      

 

Posts 3854
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:50 PM

KenAvery:
For example; Revelation has several songs song by different groups of people and most of the time the heavenly beings sing the choirs only, they do have a song they sing in Revelation 14 that only the 144,000 Jews can learn.

This is off topic - thank you for refraining from furthering this discussion.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 3:55 PM

KenAvery:
Back to the song that the 24 elders sing; the verses give a hint of who they are

My personal opinion in light of the rest of the Apocalypse is that they are the combined Patriarchs of Israel and the Apostles from the Church. 

KenAvery:
I do not believe we can call these folks heavenly beings in the sense of angles because they come from the nations and are ransomed with the blood of the lamb; note, there are only three kings and priests in the entire Bible, Melchizedek king of Salem, Jesus Christ and the Body of Christ.

No, they're not Angles, they're Saxons.  Stick out tongue  You forgot David.

KenAvery:
As far as the harp goes; according to the Greek, it is a harp!   

Actually, it is not a harp but a cither which is the forerunner of the guitar.  Did you know they found an old composition written around 300 BC which I have heard on the radio which uses a cither?  Interesting.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:01 PM

George Somsel:
No, they're not Angles, they're Saxons.    You forgot David.

I am pretty sure King David is from the tribe of Judah, not the tribe of Levi  Wink

 

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:07 PM

Oh yeah, keeping with the thread; I would rather have an Interlinear Greek-English with the various Greek texts; most people forget that some of us still use the KJV and are still up in the air about whether or not the 1,000 received text NT should be overridden by basically three older texts (including one found with Gnostic writings).

Posts 129
John McComb | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:08 PM

George Somsel:

Actually, it is not a harp but a cither which is the forerunner of the guitar.  Did you know they found an old composition written around 300 BC which I have heard on the radio which uses a cither?  Interesting.

I once heard Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" played on a guitar. It was wonderful. Much better than listening to it played on an organ (an experience that has been ruined by Hollywood horror movies). Now I want to hear it played on a cither. Maybe it needs to be a cither duet. How many strings does a cither have?

Also "Classical Gas", unplugged of course.  I wonder if Mason Williams owns a cither. I'll bet Neil Young does. Maybe we can get Neil to lend his to Mason.

Yours in Christ

John

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:19 PM

KenAvery:

George Somsel:
No, they're not Angles, they're Saxons.    You forgot David.

I am pretty sure King David is from the tribe of Judah, not the tribe of Levi  Wink

 

But he wore the Ephod which was a priestly garment.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:29 PM

KenAvery:

Oh yeah, keeping with the thread; I would rather have an Interlinear Greek-English with the various Greek texts; most people forget that some of us still use the KJV and are still up in the air about whether or not the 1,000 received text NT should be overridden by basically three older texts (including one found with Gnostic writings).

You could use "Compare Parallel Bible Versions" to have the texts side by side.  Of course, this wouldn't be an interlinear with the English in there, but I say "So much the better."  As to the number of Byz Maj texts compared to the main witnesses used in the Critical Text, one does not simply count heads.  One must weigh the evidence.  You should note that

1. The "Big 3" texts are older than the Byz Maj texts (not always determinative, but something to consider).
2. The "Big 3" and related texts are found all over whereas the Byz Maj are limited to one geographical area (Copied form one basic text?)
3. In many cases the readings of the Byz Maj text can be seen to be an effort to smooth out the grammar or even theological problems of the text and are therefore suspect.

I suggest you take a course in Textual Criticism [the process of establishing the best text].

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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