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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:33 PM

John McComb:

George Somsel:

Actually, it is not a harp but a cither which is the forerunner of the guitar.  Did you know they found an old composition written around 300 BC which I have heard on the radio which uses a cither?  Interesting.

I once heard Bach's "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" played on a guitar. It was wonderful. Much better than listening to it played on an organ (an experience that has been ruined by Hollywood horror movies). Now I want to hear it played on a cither. Maybe it needs to be a cither duet. How many strings does a cither have?

Also "Classical Gas", unplugged of course.  I wonder if Mason Williams owns a cither. I'll bet Neil Young does. Maybe we can get Neil to lend his to Mason.

Yours in Christ

John

I like Bach in almost any form (excepting played on a saxophone -- yikes!.  That having been said, I am in hog heaven when I'm alone and can dig out my Complete Bach Organ Works, crank up the volume and let it rip!  As the poet said, "A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and Bach . . . Ah wilderness were Paradise enow."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:43 PM

JeffersonMarshall:
The NASB accurately rules out the false use of mechanical instruments in worship

I know I shouldn't, I know I shouldn't ... I think that was the trains refrain. But I can't resist asking what is the true use of mechanical instruments in worship? Devil

For those who may not know it, I've adapted the phrase from the children's book "The Little Engine that Could", I'm in trouble for leading the forum off topic AND I'm a stickler for logic - requiring both halves of the true/false dichotomy ... 3 strikes earns the devil emoticon.

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 4:45 PM

KenAvery:

Oh yeah, keeping with the thread; I would rather have an Interlinear Greek-English with the various Greek texts; most people forget that some of us still use the KJV and are still up in the air about whether or not the 1,000 received text NT should be overridden by basically three older texts (including one found with Gnostic writings).

Really good point Ken. It would probably be  more effective in showing the divergences each translation has from the original. Still I wish for a NASB RI first.

 

George Somsel:

One must weigh the evidence.  You should note that

1. The "Big 3" texts are older than the Byz Maj texts (not always determinative, but something to consider).
2. The "Big 3" and related texts are found all over whereas the Byz Maj are limited to one geographical area (Copied form one basic text?)
3. In many cases the readings of the Byz Maj text can be seen to be an effort to smooth out the grammar or even theological problems of the text and are therefore suspect.

I suggest you take a course in Textual Criticism [the process of establishing the best text].

I know you won't agree George, but this is precisely why I would like to have a NASB reverse interlinear among others. It is the same reason I want The Samaritan Pentateuch, Babylonian Talmud and the LXX.  The more, the better. I promise, I won't go running to the kitchen to mix up a consensus  Bible in the cookie batter bowl.

 

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Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 5:15 PM

George Somsel:

I suggest you take a course in Textual Criticism [the process of establishing the best text].

 

Thank you for the suggestion; though, I am very comfortable with my current position.

 

As far as interlinears go; I would prefer the original texts that were used to produce the various translations, I am not convinced this is possible with the KJV.  

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 5:48 PM

KenAvery:

George Somsel:

I suggest you take a course in Textual Criticism [the process of establishing the best text].

 

Thank you for the suggestion; though, I am very comfortable with my current position.

 

As far as interlinears go; I would prefer the original texts that were used to produce the various translations, I am not convinced this is possible with the KJV.  

 

Of course, the question isn't regarding your comfort level, but regarding which is correct. 

If you want the text behind the AV [KJV] then you want the Stephens text [stephens.lbxlls] on the ftp site.  This is probably the worst possible text you could use since it even has "back translations" from the Vulgate rather than being based on any Greek text; for understanding what King Jimmy's boys were doing, however, that is it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 5:55 PM

George Somsel:

KenAvery:

George Somsel:
I suggest you take a course in Textual Criticism [the process of establishing the best text].

 Thank you for the suggestion; though, I am very comfortable with my current position.

 As far as interlinears go; I would prefer the original texts that were used to produce the various translations, I am not convinced this is possible with the KJV. 

 Of course, the question isn't regarding your comfort level, but regarding which is correct. 

If you want the text behind the AV [KJV] then you want the Stephens text [stephens.lbxlls] on the ftp site.  This is probably the worst possible text you could use since it even has "back translations" from the Vulgate rather than being based on any Greek text; for understanding what King Jimmy's boys were doing, however, that is it.

Again, I am comfortable with my position and the all the errors in the KJV (approximately 98); your suggestion still does not get to a KJV interlinear and I am still not convinced that we have all of the texts to complete a KJV interlinear.

I find it interesting that you are uncomfortable with the Vulgate considering that one of the "Big 3" come from the Vatican Wink

 

Posts 129
John McComb | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 6:06 PM

George Somsel:

I like Bach in almost any form (excepting played on a saxophone -- yikes!.  That having been said, I am in hog heaven when I'm alone and can dig out my Complete Bach Organ Works, crank up the volume and let it rip!  As the poet said, "A loaf of bread, a jug of wine and Bach . . . Ah wilderness were Paradise enow."

Saxophone eh? Why not? I'd like to hear that. I love the sound of a sax.

I think I mentioned here before that I am a big fan of plainsong. Well, I have a music cd called "Officium" that is a calaboration by Jan Garabek and the Hilliard ensemble. It sounds like a jazz saxophonist wandered into a monastery church while a group of monks were singing vespers and decided to sit in a corner and play along. Wonderful stuff, very haunting.

Anyway, don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to Bach on the organ. Just Toccata and Fugue in D Minor. The toccata has been used as background music for so many spooky castle scenes that it's almost impossible to listen to it (on the organ) without it conjuring up images of Frankenstein's monster lurking in the shadows. Hardly a proper intro to the fugue which is a thing of astonishing beauty and completely un-gothic. Actually, truth be told, my favorite arrangement of that piece is symphony version done by Leopold Stokowski for the original Fantasia film.

Organ music? Eh, it's o.k. Not my favorite. When you grow up in Canada like I did organ music has a habit of reminding you of  hockey games. If I'm going to listen to Bach keyboard music my preference is Glenn Gould on the piano. Magnificent!!!

Yours in Christ

John

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 6:36 PM

KenAvery:

Oh yeah, keeping with the thread; I would rather have an Interlinear Greek-English with the various Greek texts; most people forget that some of us still use the KJV and are still up in the air about whether or not the 1,000 received text NT should be overridden by basically three older texts (including one found with Gnostic writings).

Now that's a whole other debatable can of worms...

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 6:41 PM

Matthew C Jones:

KenAvery:

Oh yeah, keeping with the thread; I would rather have an Interlinear Greek-English with the various Greek texts; most people forget that some of us still use the KJV and are still up in the air about whether or not the 1,000 received text NT should be overridden by basically three older texts (including one found with Gnostic writings).

Really good point Ken. It would probably be  more effective in showing the divergences each translation has from the original. Still I wish for a NASB RI first.

 

George Somsel:

One must weigh the evidence.  You should note that

1. The "Big 3" texts are older than the Byz Maj texts (not always determinative, but something to consider).
2. The "Big 3" and related texts are found all over whereas the Byz Maj are limited to one geographical area (Copied form one basic text?)
3. In many cases the readings of the Byz Maj text can be seen to be an effort to smooth out the grammar or even theological problems of the text and are therefore suspect.

I suggest you take a course in Textual Criticism [the process of establishing the best text].

I know you won't agree George, but this is precisely why I would like to have a NASB reverse interlinear among others. It is the same reason I want The Samaritan Pentateuch, Babylonian Talmud and the LXX.  The more, the better. I promise, I won't go running to the kitchen to mix up a consensus  Bible in the cookie batter bowl.

 

 

Thank you, Matthew, it is obvious you get it; I would love to have all of the texts you mention. We tend to be at the mercy of translators and their particular doctrinal prejudices.

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 7:05 PM

KenAvery:
I find it interesting that you are uncomfortable with the Vulgate considering that one of the "Big 3" come from the Vatican Wink

Well, both Regan and Obama are from Ilinois too, but there is a vast difference between them so what does their location in the Vatican have to do with the matter?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 7:10 PM

John McComb:
Organ music? Eh, it's o.k. Not my favorite. When you grow up in Canada like I did organ music has a habit of reminding you of  hockey games. If I'm going to listen to Bach keyboard music my preference is Glenn Gould on the piano. Magnificent!!!

Oh no!  Bach didn't write for the piano and he shouldn't be played on the piano.  The advocates of playing Bach on the piano say that you can't get the dynamics on the harpsichord that you can get on the piano.  The problem is that Bach was not a romantic composer and doesn't sound right when played as a romantic composer.  I think any pianist who plays Bach outside of a practice room should have his head stuck in a piano case with a big strong guy playing John Cage over and over as loudly as he can.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 7:13 PM

KenAvery:

Thank you, Matthew, it is obvious you get it; I would love to have all of the texts you mention. We tend to be at the mercy of translators and their particular doctrinal prejudices.

Not if you really work at learning the original languages and have good tools.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 7:42 PM

But George,

I remember you also want to buy the Samaritan Pentateuch.   Probably for the same reason.

 

Bach should be listened to on harpsicord. That's why I buy from the Musical Heritage Society. They use period instruments. I must confess I do have the "complete" works of Bach with piano used....Embarrassed

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Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 8:05 PM

 

George,

I take it from your answer that you are comfortable with Codex Vaticanus and not the Vulgate?

To be completely honest the New Testament is not as interesting to me as the Tanakh; this was the Christian Bible for 200 years after Meshach made the ultimate sacrificed and sold everything he had for us. I consider the NT to be more of a Midrash on the Tanakh with the addition of the 8 mysteries that Sha’ul had the privilege of reveling and the view to the eternal kingdom that was revealed to Yochanan.

From my perspective, the Tanakh looking forward, the writers of the predominate texts got it right and all the new discoveries of documents found in garbage heaps in Egypt do not change my mind.

I would prefer to have interlinears using the original texts for the various translations, new and old translations, instead of interlinears where the only thing that changes is the English and not the original texts (NA27, MT). I want to know which texts are being used at what times to produce the given English inline with the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic/Latin … etc.

As far as the Vulgate goes; I do not believe we have the Greek text used for the NT, that does not make it unreliable.      

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 8:14 PM

George Somsel:

KenAvery:

Thank you, Matthew, it is obvious you get it; I would love to have all of the texts you mention. We tend to be at the mercy of translators and their particular doctrinal prejudices.

 

Not if you really work at learning the original languages and have good tools.

 

Now you are starting to get it; what is really interesting is to add in studying the history and learning where the different doctrines originate from; the translation decisions will make a lot more sense, why the translators made the particular translation decisions, in an effort to promote their own personal beliefs.

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 8:42 PM

Matthew C Jones:

But George,

I remember you also want to buy the Samaritan Pentateuch.   Probably for the same reason.

 

Bach should be listened to on harpsicord. That's why I buy from the Musical Heritage Society. They use period instruments. I must confess I do have the "complete" works of Bach with piano used....Embarrassed

What does wanting the Samaritan Pentateuch have to do with an interlinear?  

BTW:  There are texts found at Qumran with readings which are like those of the Samaritan Pentateuch (also LXX).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 9:05 PM

George Somsel:

What does wanting the Samaritan Pentateuch have to do with an interlinear?  

BTW:  There are texts found at Qumran with readings which are like those of the Samaritan Pentateuch (also LXX).

Tell me why you want the Samaritan Pentateuch and it is most likely the same reason I want interlinears. Surprise

I also like the Dead Sea scrolls Stick out tongue

I also like reading posts by George.Hmm

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 9:42 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Tell me why you want the Samaritan Pentateuch and it is most likely the same reason I want interlinears. Surprise

I also like the Dead Sea scrolls Stick out tongue

I also like reading posts by George.Hmm

There is no relation between my wanting the Sam Pent and any interlinear.  The Sam Pent provides a copy of the reading followed in the Samaritan community and also found in some places in the DSS.  An interlinear only gives you the illusion that you are dealing with the original text whereas you are simply relying on a crutch.  I say unto you, "Pick up your bed and walk."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 129
John McComb | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 10:09 PM

George Somsel:

Oh no!  Bach didn't write for the piano and he shouldn't be played on the piano.  The advocates of playing Bach on the piano say that you can't get the dynamics on the harpsichord that you can get on the piano.  The problem is that Bach was not a romantic composer and doesn't sound right when played as a romantic composer.  I think any pianist who plays Bach outside of a practice room should have his head stuck in a piano case with a big strong guy playing John Cage over and over as loudly as he can.

Ah, so that's a great big "No" vote for Glenn Gould, is it?

Didn't you say earlier that you liked Bach in any form except played on a saxophone? I gotta tell you, hearing you now say that pianos are also a no-no is a bit surprising. It kind of makes me wonder if we've really seen the end of the "exceptions" list. For instance, is it o.k. for Yo Yo Mah to play a Bach organ piece on his cello?

How many forms are included in "any form"? Are jug bands still o.k.? How about kazoos?

You are a funny guy George.

Yours in Christ

John

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2009 10:11 PM

George Somsel:

Matthew C Jones:

Tell me why you want the Samaritan Pentateuch and it is most likely the same reason I want interlinears. Surprise

I also like the Dead Sea scrolls Stick out tongue

I also like reading posts by George.Hmm

 

There is no relation between my wanting the Sam Pent and any interlinear.  The Sam Pent provides a copy of the reading followed in the Samaritan community and also found in some places in the DSS.  An interlinear only gives you the illusion that you are dealing with the original text whereas you are simply relying on a crutch.  I say unto you, "Pick up your bed and walk."

That's funny George. ......I only have one leg. ....For real. Big Smile

Anyhow, What I am saying is you are interested (curious a better word?) in reading it, discoveing what the others read, and said, and how it may have formed their lives. I believe interlinears do have something in them to be pondered. I am also interested in the lives of Wescott & Hort but NOT because I think they were Godly men. I'm just curious. Besides, my life expectancy is not long enough to master everything I woulld like to study.Time

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