Lexham Bible Guide: Ephesians

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Whyndell Gizzard | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Oct 24 2012 3:23 AM

Received this resource yesterday- looked at it last night, was left wanting. Anyone competent with Logos and notes can compile the same information.

This resource is useful, but is it is way out of line with its pricing.

Posts 737
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2012 3:30 AM

Whyndell Grizzard:

Received this resource yesterday- looked at it last night, was left wanting. Anyone competent with Logos and notes can compile the same information.

This resource is useful, but is it is way out of line with its pricing.

I have to agree. I am considering canceling the prepubs of this series. I don't think there is anything in there that I don't yet have. It just has a nicer layout. But for this price it is not worth it.

Armin

Posts 1073
Martin Folley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2012 11:20 AM

Initial impressions ...

I have no scholarly training with respect to seminary, and have found myself curious about how others have looked at the texts in a different way. In a sense, I may be one of the target audiences here. It is true that I could compile this from my resources but the time involved for any given passage is far beyond that which I have available. Like many people, I suspect, I have many resources but find myself returning to a favoured few ... often 'chosen' by author to reflect my evangelical viewpoints [uncomfortable honesty coming through here] ... so a resource that points me to other views with reasonable speed is very welcome indeed.

BUT ... 

I have a large library (and a generous wife Big Smile) yet I am finding that many of the links in this resource are locked to me. (Zondervan, Anchor Yale Bible, ICC etc.) This is mainly due to the high costs of these resources, and my not being in full time ministry etc. It seems to me that a quick sentence followed by a single locked link does not develop the viewpoints sufficiently.

For this to be a truly useful resource then I would need a very large and expensive library; but if I had that sort of library then I would also expect to be a seminary trained, full time, pastor -  at least more than a passionate layman with a family could commit to in a pure $ sense. If I were trained then I would have less need of this resource since (I presume) that I would be more familiar with many of the issues. Not being trained tends towards greater need but a cheaper library where the usefulness of the supplied links is greatly reduced.

I wonder if Logos has actuallymatched the sales of various resource (number of owners) with the number of links in the resource, to see, on average, how many links will be unlocked for different users. (I wonder if that were available on the website ... since our personal resources are known and their links are also known ...)

A second observation is my desire to trace down some of the links. I have just clicked on a locked link and a tab opened with 'you do not have a license ..' and with a link to the website ... which was a broken link (ICC-EPH) .... I wonder if a) Logos intends to make these resources available singularly; b) will they be discounted in any way in conjunction with owning this resource.  It seems to me that the resource price is excessive for the limited functionality included (subject to your library). If it were considerably cheaper (read 'loss leader') then it could generate more sales through opening up the huge Logos catalogue in a different way ... some of the linked resources I would not have previously considered (finance aside) since I could not easily discern a different viewpoint from an existing viewpoint that is more or less covered already in my resources.

Is the Lexham bible guide going to be updated or simply maintained (I have come across a couple of broken links so far)? In other words will additional links be supplied ... is there any room for crowd-sourcing additional links here? I suspect that further development will not occur as the author moves on to the next book in the canon Wink, although maintenance will take place, as it always does with Logos (A BIG THANK YOU TO LOGOS! Cake).

I do have the Exegetical Summary of Ephesians to compare it with. I find the Exegetical summary to be a little terse and technical (at first reading), but it actually make more sense after reading the corresponding passage in the Lexham Bible Guide, so in a way, for me, they compliment each other, especially in the quest for further links.

Will I cancel my other pre-pubs and ask for a refund? ... the jury is out on that one ... more reading to do first ... if only they were not so expensive!

2010 17" MBP with High Sierra, iPad4 with iOS10.

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2012 11:24 AM

Whyndell Grizzard:

Received this resource yesterday- looked at it last night, was left wanting. Anyone competent with Logos and notes can compile the same information.

This resource is useful, but is it is way out of line with its pricing.

Martin Folley:

I have a large library (and a generous wife Big Smile) yet I am finding that many of the links in this resource are locked to me. (Zondervan, Anchor Yale Bible, ICC etc.) This is mainly due to the high costs of these resources, and my not being in full time ministry etc. It seems to me that a quick sentence followed by a single locked link does not develop the viewpoints sufficiently.

For this to be a truly useful resource then I would need a very large and expensive library; but if I had that sort of library then I would also expect to be a seminary trained, full time, pastor -  at least more than a passionate layman with a family could commit to in a pure $ sense. If I were trained then I would have less need of this resource since (I presume) that I would be more familiar with many of the issues. Not being trained tends towards greater need but a cheaper library where the usefulness of the supplied links is greatly reduced.

 

 

This is why I think that the real intent is to inflate the value and then include the resources as part of upper level collections in Logos 5.

I just cannot believe that Logos would so grossly misjudge the audience and think that anyone would want to fork that much for  a fancy aggregator

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2012 12:23 PM

I bought the Ephesians edition to see if I would like it.  I did, but not at the current price point.  

I had most of the resources that it refers to aside from Anchor Bible Commentary and one other resource, but I could see how people who had not invested in a number of resources outside of base collections would not like it.  It did not strike me as a very strong stand alone resource.

My decision?  I can take the money I would have spent on the rest of the series and put it into some things I know will give me a bit greater bang for the buck.  

If a good package deal could be had once the series is done, I might consider it if it is better than what we are currently seeing in terms of price per volume.

Nice concept as I'm sure it will meet some people's needs if one is willing to pay this much and have the linked resources, but no thanks for now from me. I'm deleting my prepubs.

Posts 640
Into Grace | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2012 2:31 PM

Yes

Donovan R. Palmer:

I bought the Ephesians edition to see if I would like it.  I did, but not at the current price point.  

I had most of the resources that it refers to aside from Anchor Bible Commentary and one other resource, but I could see how people who had not invested in a number of resources outside of base collections would not like it.  It did not strike me as a very strong stand alone resource.

My decision?  I can take the money I would have spent on the rest of the series and put it into some things I know will give me a bit greater bang for the buck.  

If a good package deal could be had once the series is done, I might consider it if it is better than what we are currently seeing in terms of price per volume.

Nice concept as I'm sure it will meet some people's needs if one is willing to pay this much and have the linked resources, but no thanks for now from me. I'm deleting my prepubs.

 

Posts 128
Simon Pleasants | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 1:38 AM

The Lexham Bible Guide for Ephesians is cheap compared to those for other books: Galatians is $35, Luke is $75, and Genesis is a whooping $110 (all pre-pub prices). Other products produced by Logos are also expensive; for example, the Lexham Methods Series is $250 for four volumes. Purchasing them on pre-pub requires a big step of faith since they are all new resources. The only safety net is the return policy. 

"Upon a life I did not live, Upon a death I did not die, Another's life, another's death, I stake my whole eternity"

Horatius Bonar

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 3:59 AM

Simon Pleasants:
Luke is $75, and Genesis is a whooping $110

I agree. These are eye watering prices.

I do like the concept as it is does complement the exegetical series and does some 'pre-work' for you in connecting up passages to a number of quality resources in your library (if you own them), but still the price... yikes.  Let's say for example the average price per volume is $50, if you bought the entire series covering the Bible you would be looking at a total cost greater than $3,000 just for this resource in series in prepub prices.  OK, you don't have to buy every one of them, but it does put it in perspective when you weigh it up against the series prices such as Anchor Bible, base collection upgrades, etc.  I can buy quite a number of things on my wish list for this amount.

Posts 737
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 6:04 AM

I really hope that Bob is reading this thread. To charge such a high price for a resource that only works if you have other very expensive resources makes this very expensive. Donovan estimated a cost of $3,000 for the entire set of Lexham Bible Guides. But then, this set is only helpful if you have Anchor  ($1,900), WBC ($700), ICC ($1,750), Pillar ($500), Baker Exegetical Commentary ($700),... This means to use a $3,000 commentary set, you need to invest an additional $5,550. This is EXPENSIVE.

Armin

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 6:43 AM

I have been reading this for a couple of days since it came out, and I have to say I like it and I think it will be useful.  The points about the reliance on quite a few other resources is a good point, but this really is a resource to summarize, organize, and get me thinking about this book and what "is out there" in the Logo library world, maybe in my world. I have a number of these resources, and the more we all get over time, the more we will appreciate better tools to get the big picture before we dive in to analyze.  If you review the forum posts, there are many, many more posts about the inability to get arms around the resources in a library than there are the opposite. It seems this challenge thaat we all face is exactly what this series attempts to address.

I love the help in getting some context and big picture view of how my library may be able to help me in researching the Bible before I jump in to the same Commentary or Collections out of habit.

I suspect this series will only get better, I hope many buy this and offer comments and suggestions. We need more help using our libraries, libraries that will continue to grow in the next 5-10 years.

Posts 10115
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 7:41 AM

Armin ... are you really being fair. Take for example 'Luke'.  If you even 'tried' to purchase this outside of Logos, you'd be putting down $125.

Now your price is 40% off of retail for the Lexham Bible Guide. Some of them are 50% off!!  We're talking a BIG savings.

(I don't want to point out the humor in the percent-off since a couple days ago I was criticizing a gentleman for questioning Logos' ethical behavior. Trying to stay positive here.


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Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 7:43 AM

I haven't had a chance to read it yet, so I must reserve judgement. I'm sure that the authors and editor have worked hard on it. I am eagerly looking forward to reading it through.

I did skim through it several times, and like many, the first thing I noticed was references to a lot of commentaries that I don't have. That in itself is not a bad thing as my hopes for the Guide where that it would be 1) immediately useful on its own, and 2) sell me on other references that I don't have and that I possibly haven't even considered. My hope for the guide is that it be like talking to an expert on Ephesians who has read every commentary, every book, every obscure reference to Ephesians and thoroughly summarize and point me to further references on the most common viewpoints and references on differing and/or controversial viewpoints. At first glance, that doesn't appear to be the case. They don't seem to pull from a varied and broad enough base of references. But, again I need to reserve judgement until I've had time to sit down and study.

I've also noticed that the few synopses of commentaries do not seem to give enough information from the commentary to adequately explain the viewpoint or to sell me on any particular commentary.

My last observation is that there are many types of links juxtaposed often within the same paragraph. Links that 1) open a resource, that is 1a) in my library or 1b) not in my library; 2) jump to section within the book; and 3) pop up a definition(?). It probably wouldn't be as noticeable if they didn't occur so close together. There is no way to tell from looking at the link or hovering over it what kind it is.

Link types (1a) and (2) pop up text, but one type (1a) takes you to place in a different window and the other takes you to a different place in the same window; if you blink, it may take a second to figure out where to look-it's a bit jarring. Web pages use identical looking links for internal and external links without problem, but that's because it all happens in the same window. Some type of **subtle** visual indicator to make it less jarring would be appreciated.

Link type (1b) doesn't pop up anything, which is immediately noticeable and inconsistent. Maybe a popup with book title and author and some type of small graphic that identifies it as a link to a resource that is not in my library?

Link type (3) would benefit greatly from a simple dotted underline or similar.

Those are just observations. I'm still looking forward to reading and studying the resource, and I fully intend to examine several more NT & OT guides before making any kind of personal judgement on their quality as a whole.

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 7:54 AM

Dominick Sela:
I suspect this series will only get better, I hope many buy this and offer comments and suggestions. We need more help using our libraries, libraries that will continue to grow in the next 5-10 years.

I agree. The concept, presentation and strategy is sound. Particularly if I am in a rush and don't have time to do my own research, it can be a great launch pad or starting point.  It reminds me of the passage guide, but some of the work done for you in selecting some things you might want to look at.

It's the cost that has got my attention though. (e.g. $110 for Genesis) This is a premium resource that you gotta want really badly and some probably will. I would like it, but not at the cost of bumping some of the other stuff off of my wish list.  Even at $2K for the series, is still a bit eye watering when you compare it to INT, NICNT/OT, AB, ICC and HERM.  OK, this is not apples to apples in terms of categorical comparisons, but it does have to factor in when you don't have an unlimited book budget.

Anyhow, it's a free market economy.  Each to his own and this looks like a resource that has some good uses if you got the bucks for it.

Posts 737
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2012 11:35 PM

DMB:

Armin ... are you really being fair. Take for example 'Luke'.  If you even 'tried' to purchase this outside of Logos, you'd be putting down $125.

Now your price is 40% off of retail for the Lexham Bible Guide. Some of them are 50% off!!  We're talking a BIG savings.

I am reluctant to compare print editions with e-editions. Sure, e-editions are cheaper unless you are talking about popular reading. However, e-editions also have their disadvantages: You cannot lend a book to somebody else. Also, if Logos goes bust in a few years (hopefully this will never happen), you lost your investment while print editions can be enjoyed by generations to come.

I still believe that having to pay thousands of dollars for a resource that only works when you have even more thousands of dollars invested in other resources is asking for a lot.

Armin

 

Posts 3173
Whyndell Gizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 27 2012 3:13 AM

Armin:

DMB:

Armin ... are you really being fair. Take for example 'Luke'.  If you even 'tried' to purchase this outside of Logos, you'd be putting down $125.

Now your price is 40% off of retail for the Lexham Bible Guide. Some of them are 50% off!!  We're talking a BIG savings.

I am reluctant to compare print editions with e-editions. Sure, e-editions are cheaper unless you are talking about popular reading. However, e-editions also have their disadvantages: You cannot lend a book to somebody else. Also, if Logos goes bust in a few years (hopefully this will never happen), you lost your investment while print editions can be enjoyed by generations to come.

I still believe that having to pay thousands of dollars for a resource that only works when you have even more thousands of dollars invested in other resources is asking for a lot.

Armin

 

Good observation. I still say that this resource is useful- but not at this price, I do basically the same thing myself already, this is the main reason I will not purchase this series. 

As to paper libraries- never got rid of mine, and actually have started building it again because of the cost. To find out you have spent thousands of dollars (in excess of 20k, I'm not embarrassed to say it)  on books, and then cannot just let someone have it when you die, well rubs me the wrong way as well, you have to make sure you will it to them specifically, but alas I digress into petty issues.

The money for this series could be better spent, those who are taking on ministry and scholarly pursuit of it- need to learn these disciplines themselves, by one example then practice it till you do it second nature, if you do not have a mentor to guide you.. 

Posts 10115
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 27 2012 7:10 AM

Obviously I need to go to humor-class. As far as I know, the Lexham series aren't available 'outside' and certainly aren't available before they're even created.

But for Logos marketing, they ARE still available outside at a far higher price!! What a deal. I'd like to share a beer and see what other great ideas Logos marketing has in the works!

And Whydell ... if I'm reading your message correctly, I wouldn't describe loaning/giving others religious books for their benefit as a 'petty issue'. I know you're trying to be nice. But you'd 'think' religious books are indeed for learning and sharing. I always think it's funny how some pastors think their sermons are the cats meow, and not what they themselves benefit from.


Posts 9
Scott Lamb | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2012 7:40 PM

One thing that I would like Logos to do is to list the bibliography for each of the Bible Guides on its website. I like the short summaries of the various commentaries but many times I like to delve deeper and access that particular resource. If I know what resources are quoted in the guide before I purchase the guide then I can determine if my library will support a significant portion of that particular guide.

Listed below are the resources for the Ephesians Lexham Bible Guide:

 

Dictionary of Paul and His Letters (part of the Essential IVP Reference Collection)

Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels (part of the Essential IVP Reference Collection)

http://www.logos.com/product/8588/the-essential-ivp-reference-collection-version-3

 

Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible

http://www.logos.com/product/7841/eerdmans-dictionary-of-the-bible

 

The New Bible Dictionary, Third Edition

http://www.logos.com/product/310/the-new-bible-dictionary-third-edition

 

Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament: Ephesians

http://www.logos.com/product/26719/zondervan-exegetical-commentary-on-the-new-testament-ephesians

 

Anchor Yale Bible: Ephesians (part of the Anchor Yale Bible collection)

http://www.logos.com/product/5743/anchor-yale-bible-new-testament

 

A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on Ephesians

http://www.logos.com/product/4182/a-critical-and-exegetical-commentary-on-ephesians

 

Word Biblical Commentary: Ephesians (part of the WBC collection)

http://www.logos.com/product/8006/word-biblical-commentary#046

 

Pillar New Testament Commentary: The Letter to the Ephesians

http://www.logos.com/product/3447/pillar-new-testament-commentary-the-letter-to-the-ephesians

 

NIV Application Commentary: Ephesians (part of the NIVAC collection)

http://www.logos.com/product/5459/niv-application-commentary-new-testament

 

Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament: Ephesians (part of the BECNT collection)

http://www.logos.com/product/9781/baker-exegetical-commentary-on-the-new-testament-upgrade

 

NICNT: The Epistles to the Colossians, to Philemon, and to the Ephesians (part of the NICNT collection)

http://www.logos.com/product/23991/the-new-international-commentary-on-the-new-testament

 

Interpretation: A Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching Ephesians, Colossians, & Philemon

http://www.logos.com/product/15688/interpretation-a-bible-commentary-for-teaching-and-preaching-ephesians-colossians-and-philemon

 

Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible

http://www.logos.com/product/5798/baker-encyclopedia-of-the-bible

 

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT)

http://www.logos.com/product/8491/theological-dictionary-of-the-new-testament

 

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (4 vols.)

http://www.logos.com/product/5463/new-international-dictionary-of-new-testament-theology

 

The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament (part of the AMG Bibles Essentials collection)

http://www.logos.com/product/9438/amg-bible-essentials#002

 

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (3 vols.)

http://www.logos.com/product/5791/exegetical-dictionary-of-the-new-testament

 

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)

http://www.logos.com/product/3878/a-greek-english-lexicon-of-the-new-testament-and-other-early-christian-literature-3rd-ed

 

Dictionary of the Later New Testament and Its Developments

http://www.logos.com/product/4892/dictionary-of-the-later-new-testament-and-its-developments

 

The Expositor's Bible Commentary (EBC) (12 vols.)

http://www.logos.com/product/5457/the-expositors-bible-commentary

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2012 8:18 PM

Whyndell Grizzard:
and then cannot just let someone have it when you die,

i'm not sure what you mean.  i think a transfer fee of $20 allows you to do just that, doesn't it?  Bob had some stuff to say on it, too.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 737
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 31 2012 10:43 PM

The problem with the description of the Lexham Bible Guides on the Logos website is the following sentence:

"The Lexham Bible Guide gives you the tools you need to find fast answers. It summarizes content from your books and organizes it in an easy-to-follow format. It gives you the direction to begin your study."

The issue is the "your books". This made me initially believe that it really only uses the resources that I already have. However, this is not the case. The Lexham Bible Guides also summarize contents from books that I do not yet have.

Armin

Posts 3173
Whyndell Gizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 1 2012 2:38 AM

Dan DeVilder:

Whyndell Grizzard:
and then cannot just let someone have it when you die,

i'm not sure what you mean.  i think a transfer fee of $20 allows you to do just that, doesn't it?  Bob had some stuff to say on it, too.

Had a friend who passed wife was going to give his library to someone- but because ti was not willed she could not. 

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