Logos Updates and Upgrades and Ebooks and Data Sets

This is an attempt to clarify our terminology, and will be the basis of a definitive web page on the subject. Your comments/feedback welcome!

Logos Bible Software is a product that consists of code and content.

Long ago, we sold the product and sold periodic upgrades to the product, with revised code and new content. The code was essentially a reader for the content, which was exclusively ebooks -- content with a direct equivalent to a paper book.

This created some awkward situations, though:

Sometimes an operating system upgrade would be incompatible with our code and users would be unable to read their content without an update. We would either have to go back and patch an old version of the code, or the user would have to upgrade the product to get the latest code (and maybe some content they didn't care about), just to keep reading the content they had already paid for.

Sometimes we would release a new ebook for sale that would require features in the latest code. Some users just wanted to buy this new ebook without paying for an upgrade to the newest version of the product.

Some users were reluctant to buy ebook content because they worried that they would be stuck on a perpetual treadmill, being forced to buy periodic upgrades to the entire product every few years, just to maintain access to what they had already purchased, as operating systems and computers changed over time.

To better serve our users, we decided to separate code and content in the upgrade process. We announced that updates to the code required to read the content you purchased would be free in the future, ensuring continued access to your purchased content at no additional cost.

There was a subtle distinction between these code updates and product upgrades, since code was just what was required to read your content, and the product was a mix of code and content. Sometimes this distinction was lost in conversation, or streamlined in messages, or simply not understood.

But the point has always been to ensure continued access to purchased content through various platform and operating system upgrades, at no additional cost.

In recent years Logos has begun creating content specifically for digital use. This content does not have a direct equivalent to a paper books. To distinguish this content from ebooks, we have begun calling it data sets.

For example, an ebook might have readable text, designed for humans, like:

AHAZ — possessor. (1.) A grandson of Jonathan (1 Chr. 8:35; 9:42). ...

A data set is designed for a computer. It would have:

#Ahaz, Type=Man, Related Concepts=%Ahaz_Person, Family Relation=#Ahaz_Child_#Jotham is_childmanparent_of #Jotham ...

Some new features in the product are highly integrated with these data sets, just as in the past some features were integrated with specific ebooks. Where the code might once have retrieved the definition of a term by opening an ebook and extracting the text of the article whose headword matched the term, now it retrieves information from a data set and does special processing and presentation of this content.

Over time, more and more of the new features of the product are a mix of highly specialized code and these new data sets. Some new features have no value or usefulness without the data sets. And these data sets are, like ebook content, not part of the free code update, but are part of the paid product upgrades.

This is no different than in the past, when a feature that required a specific ebook only worked if the ebook content was purchased and installed. (You could not see Greek text and morphological analysis in the Exegetical Guide if you had not purchased a Greek text with morphological analysis.)

This describes the situation as it is now, and explains the difference between a free update and a paid upgrade to the product.

What follows is a discussion about the future...

We believe there are diminishing returns for innovating purely in the code that reads ebooks. Our software can already search, display, analyze, slice and dice that content every which way. We will continue to keep the code up to date and functioning on new versions of the platform operating systems (Mac and Windows), and we'll continue to implement and support code that reads the ebooks on iOS, Android, etc. These updates and basic readers will be free.

But the most exciting and interesting features of future versions of Logos Bible Software the product will most likely involve a combination of code (for presentation and manipulation) and unique, hand-edited and curated data sets, which are the modern/future format for much of the content/intellectual-value previously delivered in paper books, and their ebook equivalents.

These data sets will continue to be sold, either as stand-alone content you can add to your digital library, like ebooks, or bundled into products you can buy or upgrade to.

To make it easy to price products, pay royalties, and retain the distinction between code and content, Logos has described and sold data sets much like ebooks. They are line items in comparison charts, sometimes have individual prices, and are unlocked internally just like ebooks.

In the future, this will create logistical and technical frustration: because a data set is not exactly like an ebook. When a book is written and sold it is essentially a complete resource to which a price can be assigned. The author is paid for the completed work, and has no future obligation to expend more effort or write more words. (The occasional typo fix, or corrections in a future printing, can be delivered as a free update digitally, but this is a trivial enhancement.)

The Logos data sets, however, are potentially never-finished projects on which unending resources can be expended. Descriptive limits can deal with some of this -- we can split the reverse interlinearization of every Bible into separate databases, organized by Bible, and account/charge for the work on each Bible separately. We can even count whole new "lines" of content on a Bible (referent analysis, contextual word senses, etc.) as separate data sets.

But what to do with a timeline data set containing 8,000 items? This unique data set, the equivalent of many paper books (e.g. "The Timeline of Church History"), was compiled at significant expense. We label and sell it as a data set and get paid for that work.

But what if we want to add 3,000 more items to the timeline before the next upgrade of the product? In the paper book world you would either revise the book, and sell the 2nd edition at full price as a new product, or create a new volume. ("The Timeline of Church History: Volume II" or "The New Timeline of Church History"). Either way this would be a salable product from which production costs could be recovered.

It seems silly to create a "More Timeline Events" data set and charge for and deliver it separately. The whole point of the data set is to make for smoother integration into the timeline feature.

But if the data set is simply updated with 3,000 more events, and there is no way to collect money for that enhancement, Logos will not long be able to afford to make these enhancements.

(What if we want to create just three new thematic maps to add to the existing set of 60+? How do we cover costs?)

We have a similar project with our enhancements to ebooks. We are continually revisiting ebooks and adding tagging to their content. Much of this work is done by hand at significant expense, but we never charge again for the same ebook content. But in many cases the book is becoming more valuable because of the new tagging, and many new features we would like to offer in the future will require new tagging to be hand-applied to old ebooks.

What is the best way to monetize enhancements / additions to content already sold?

- Deliver it for free and make up the revenue on other sales. We do this now for some enhancements, but it doesn't scale well and limits our budget for improvements. We put more energy into things we can explicitly sell.

- Describe enhancements as data sets and 'lock' them in the user interface for users who don't purchase them. There is a "More Timeline Events" data set in the product configuration, but it really just enables the next 3,000 events in the existing timeline data set. A resource might be fully tagged with new metadata, but it doesn't get used if you haven't upgraded to a product containing the "Enhanced Resource Metadata Volume I" data set.

- Sell data sets by subscription, not as discrete content items. Don't sell the timeline data set or Bible People or Bible Places data sets for a one-time price. Sell them only by subscription, so that a smaller, but continual, revenue stream can fund continued improvement and addition to the data sets.

I welcome your ideas!

-- Bob

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Comments

Bruce Dunning

Bob, thanks for opening up to help us better understand the behind the scenes thinking of Logos. I knew that it was complicated but I now have a window into the fact that it is much more complicated than I ever thought.

If I understand what you are saying I'm not opposed to paying for some locked elements of future developments for Logos. I would assume that they would probably also be sold in an upgrade like you are doing now. Of course it would be nice to have it for free but the complexity of when data sets become resources in themselves is complicated indeed.

Thanks again for inviting input.

Mark Barnes

Thanks, Bob, for this very helpful post.

What is the best way to monetize enhancements / additions to content already sold?

Definitely, absolutely, certainly not a subscription, which has never worked for Logos (think the original Personal Book Builder licence, or the current FSB). Users hate this model for anything that they intend to use over a long period of time - unless the product is very expensive and a subscription makes it affordable. Logos 5 Portfolio for $100/month would be attractive to some, but probably only those who wanted something for college but didn't intend using it much afterwards.

Personally, I would suggest using the Collections Model, which we're already used to. When you update the Timeline, create a collection called Timeline (2 vols), and include two datasets to that collection: Timeline 2012 and Timeline 2013. When you next bring out a new Timeline, create a new collection called Timeline (3 vols), and retire Timeline (2 vols). Give users dynamic pricing options, so that users who already own the 2 volume collection, and upgrade to the 3 volume collection at 66% off.

Jason Saling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434513#Comment_434513

I like it how the system already works. Want upgraded features? Then buy the upgraded product with the new features.

I really dislike the subscription idea. Perhaps that could be another option in your marketing for some users who might like that idea, but I sure hope you don't get rid of "base packages." I would rather own the license all paid for, than have to pay a monthly or annual subscription. Especially since I can transfer my license to someone else. It would be pointless to transfer a "subscription." I would rather have all features paid for in full. If that means a NEW or ENHANCED feature costs more money, then so be it. I could either pay for it or go without it, but would not get a subscription.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434513#Comment_434513

Definitely, absolutely, certainly not a subscription, which has never worked for Logos (think the original Personal Book Builder licence, or the current FSB). Users hate this model for anything that they intend to use over a long period of time - unless the product is very expensive and a subscription makes it affordable. Logos 5 Portfolio for $100/month would be attractive to some, but probably only those who wanted something for college but didn't intend using it much afterwards.

Personally, I would suggest using the Collections Model, which we're already used to. When you update the Timeline, create a collection called Timeline (2 vols), and include two datasets to that collection: Timeline 2012 and Timeline 2013. When you next bring out a new Timeline, create a new collection called Timeline (3 vols), and retire Timeline (2 vols). Give users dynamic pricing options, so that users who already own the 2 volume collection, and upgrade to the 3 volume collection at 66% off.

I'm with Mark about all he says.

It isn't straightforward, though, unless you get very specific about what is and isn't in a dataset so a buyer can make an informed decision. Just listing a dataset and giving no detailed info won't work under a purchase or upgrade system. People know what they are getting with an ebook. Your datasets are unknowns. In fact even today we don't know how much data and functionality is actually going to be included in Timelines, Clause Searching, Roots, and the Bible Sense Lexicon. If I had to buy those separately I'd want a very clear idea of what I was getting.

In addition, I wonder with the way Logos releases new upgrades whether you can wait to get all your datasets and the features that use them finalized before you want to release new product. You could promise a certain amount of data or additional functionality, but there was an awful long wait for promises to be fulfilled after L4 was released and I wouldn't like to see you do that again.

So some things have to be run differently if you are going to start selling datasets and upgrades to datasets as discrete products. I understand the need for it, but I wonder if you can do it.

Erwin Stull, Sr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434519#Comment_434519

My vote is NO to subscription based services (other than the magazine). Although a subscription based product will pretty much ensure a continued cash flow on a currently owned/licensed product, is it really necessary to consider? I have never liked subscription based software, as if the funds are no longer available to continue the subscription, the investment is lost, because the software no longer function.

The current model for purchases is good, as one has a choice whether to upgrade/add additional resources or not, without losing their current investment.

As for me, and the reason for my votes/suggestions, my cash flow is erratic. I may have a certain amount of cash this quarter, and another amount next quarter. So, if I am not able to afford more resources or upgrades, and my current investment was lost, it would be tragic. Payment plans can be a curse to some, but they are a blessing to me, as they keep my payments for the resources to a manageable level, and I know that one day it will be paid off and I can still study God's Word with this great software.

Edwin Bowden

What is the best way to monetize enhancements / additions to content already sold?

- Deliver it for free and make up the revenue on other sales. We do this now for some enhancements, but it doesn't scale well and limits our budget for improvements. We put more energy into things we can explicitly sell.

- Describe enhancements as data sets and 'lock' them in the user interface for users who don't purchase them. There is a "More Timeline Events" data set in the product configuration, but it really just enables the next 3,000 events in the existing timeline data set. A resource might be fully tagged with new metadata, but it doesn't get used if you haven't upgraded to a product containing the "Enhanced Resource Metadata Volume I" data set.

- Sell data sets by subscription, not as discrete content items. Don't sell the timeline data set or Bible People or Bible Places data sets for a one-time price. Sell them only by subscription, so that a smaller, but continual, revenue stream can fund continued improvement and addition to the data sets.

I welcome your ideas!

Bob,

Thanks for sharing this info about your publishing decisions.

I spent over 20 years in Christian publishing so I have some insight to some of the difficulties and understand the dramatic differences in digital publishing. Too many critics see Logos as merely a reader of content. Logos does a terrific job on both the engine and making a wealth of content available.

When I began using L5, I realized that Logos had made giant leaps in the way that it enhances our Bible study.

I don't think there is a single solution to the whole problem.

Although I understand the costs involved in updating current ebooks, the fundamental principle that Logos users are not willing to budge on is that we do not have to buy a resource more than once. Users feel like there is a contractual obligation on that. At the same time, I see that users also want tagging updated in existing titles (Exegetical Summaries, etc.).

I agree with Mark Barnes (who I think speaks for the majority of users) that subscriptions are another hot button.

L5 introduced us to a better understanding of data sets and their value. Once users have experienced the value that those represent, it will be easier to use this model for future enhancements.

BTW--I noticed that after 4 weeks, the information available about the L5 enhancements and customized upgrade pricing has finally matured to the point that it should have been originally. As much as I love Logos, both as a company and a product, clear communication with users has always been the weakest aspect of Logos. If the marketing of L5 had at its current status on Day 1, there would not have been nearly the uproar.

Users (and Logos staff) were spending a good deal of their time explaining to other users what Logos failed to make clear on its website. Having the information on the upgrade page is much preferable to digging through hundreds of forum posts. Before upgrading, I spent a week utilizing charts others had posted to analyze my upgrade options. The current version of the custom upgrade page would have saved me many hours. It took 2 weeks to get the info out about the MC. I made my upgrade decision not knowing for sure how the MC would affect my decision.There are still problems with people who upgrade to MC and find that it now costs them more to upgrade to a base package.

I thought one of the biggest blunders Logos made on the upgrade page was not making clear the awesome values available on the CUSTOMIZE button. Logos should have been getting additional multiple sales on those add-on titles.

In reflection, at least the problems this time were primarily marketing and communication. L4's introduction complaints were primarily about the product. We still don't have all the details about the free L5 engine. . The introduction of both upgrades appear to be the result of releasing product without being fully prepared.

I do appreciate your frequent posts on the forums and dealing directly with some of the problems.

Randy W. Sims

I like the subscription model IF:

1. you are talking about a subscription to updates as opposed to a subscription to the data set. In other words, if a user cancels the subscription they keep what they have, but no longer receive updates;

2. and IF there is also an option to pay a one time subscription for all future updates of the current product version. I.E. Pay $5 a month OR pay a one time $100 to receive all updates to Logos version 5.

Also, I think it will be important to be explicit about updates. From what I understand, some of the existing data sets are not finished and there is at least an implied promise that those data sets will be completed as part of the original Logos 5 product at no additional cost. I suspect people will be unhappy if the find out that they will have to pay to get the complete product they think they already purchased. What is an update? What is already paid for?

I have no problem paying for updates. Not that I have much money; I certainly don't. But, I do believe in paying for quality products and services that have value.

Anon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434526#Comment_434526

Definitely, absolutely, certainly not a subscription, which has never worked for Logos (think the original Personal Book Builder licence, or the current FSB). Users hate this model for anything that they intend to use over a long period of time - unless the product is very expensive and a subscription makes it affordable. Logos 5 Portfolio for $100/month would be attractive to some, but probably only those who wanted something for college but didn't intend using it much afterwards.

Personally, I would suggest using the Collections Model, which we're already used to. When you update the Timeline, create a collection called Timeline (2 vols), and include two datasets to that collection: Timeline 2012 and Timeline 2013. When you next bring out a new Timeline, create a new collection called Timeline (3 vols), and retire Timeline (2 vols). Give users dynamic pricing options, so that users who already own the 2 volume collection, and upgrade to the 3 volume collection at 66% off.

I'm with Mark about all he says.

It isn't straightforward, though, unless you get very specific about what is and isn't in a dataset so a buyer can make an informed decision. Just listing a dataset and giving no detailed info won't work under a purchase or upgrade system. People know what they are getting with an ebook. Your datasets are unknowns. In fact even today we don't know how much data and functionality is actually going to be included in Timelines, Clause Searching, Roots, and the Bible Sense Lexicon. If I had to buy those separately I'd want a very clear idea of what I was getting.

In addition, I wonder with the way Logos releases new upgrades whether you can wait to get all your datasets and the features that use them finalized before you want to release new product. You could promise a certain amount of data or additional functionality, but there was an awful long wait for promises to be fulfilled after L4 was released and I wouldn't like to see you do that again.

So some things have to be run differently if you are going to start selling datasets and upgrades to datasets as discrete products. I understand the need for it, but I wonder if you can do it.

Agreed.

Justin Cofer

I vote no subscription. I concur with Mark Barnes.

Justin Cofer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434540#Comment_434540

I also believe that Logos needs to start generating a lot more content like Runge's work and the EEC and start packaging it in their packages. Since it is Lexham, you don't need to fight with the publishers to include the content in your packages. Logos is clearly in the business of generating content, whether that be data sets or ebooks.

Erwin Stull, Sr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434535#Comment_434535

I like the subscription model IF:

1. you are talking about a subscription to updates as opposed to a subscription to the data set. In other words, if a user cancels the subscription they keep what they have, but no longer receive updates;

2. and IF there is also an option to pay a one time subscription for all future updates of the current product version. I.E. Pay $5 a month OR pay a one time $100 to receive all updates to Logos version 5.

Also, I think it will be important to be explicit about updates. From what I understand, some of the existing data sets are not finished and there is at least an implied promise that those data sets will be completed as part of the original Logos 5 product at no additional cost. I suspect people will be unhappy if the find out that they will have to pay to get the complete product they think they already purchased. What is an update? What is already paid for?

I have no problem paying for updates. Not that I have much money; I certainly don't. But, I do believe in paying for quality products and services that have value.

This is like a support contract. I have seen this done with success. I have subscribed (if that word can be used) to these in the past, and felt pretty good about it. [:)]

I agree with this model, and would vote for it.

Marty Brownfield

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434535#Comment_434535

I think that the only way a subscription service will be attractive is if the customer is assured of frequent updates (perhaps monthly). If we pay a certain amount each month, it could get frustrating if several months go by and we see nothing from our investment. I guess it depends on how often these data sets will be updated. Will it be (assuredly!) frequent updates? Then perhaps a subscription service makes sense. Will it be huge changes once or twice a year? Then an upgrade pricing might be better.

Even if a subscription model is available, I would like the option to have an upgrade instead. Of course, the upgrade price should not be lower than what the subscribing users have been paying! The upgrade price should (in all fairness) be somewhat higher than the collective cost of what the subscribers have already paid. But this would allow users to still gain the value of those updated data sets in one fell swoop, as it were, perhaps after 6 months or a year of updates have been applied.

I hope I'm being clear here! One thing I have refrained from doing is to criticize Logos for their marketing communication, because I feel rather vulnerable throwing stones while standing in my glass house.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434582#Comment_434582

"What is the best way to monetize enhancements / additions to content already sold?"

It seems to me that significant database updates would be best sold as a upgraded version of the software. Right now logos is offer the minimal crossovers, which the customer can purchase to get all the new features. If the software can now do more things with our books, then that would justify the cost of the upgrade. That is my perspective...

I know it changes the free software idea, maybe it means cheaper books? A guy can be hopeful ..

Alan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434608#Comment_434608

Thanks for a very informative post.

On any pricing model please take into account users who do not have the luxury of dollars. Many of the users live in countries where the currency exchange rate severely penalizes them. As such I would also not recommend a subscription as many of these markets are volatile and I wouldn't make a commitment ahead of time without knowing what it would actually be costing me. By way of example I ordered a book which I returned within a week - the exchange rate varied to such an extent that I was refunded R50 (about $6) less than what I paid. (Of course if it went the other way I would have had a little bonus, but it rarely goes that way!)

I know that I cannot expect resources/datasets for free just because I'm in Africa, but please do think of us when prices are set.

Armin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434657#Comment_434657

I also would like to vote against subscription. But I am willing to pay for upgrades to datasets if my wallet allows.

Armin

Charlene

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434513#Comment_434513

Definitely, absolutely, certainly not a subscription, which has never worked for Logos (think the original Personal Book Builder licence, or the current FSB). Users hate this model for anything that they intend to use over a long period of time - unless the product is very expensive and a subscription makes it affordable. Logos 5 Portfolio for $100/month would be attractive to some, but probably only those who wanted something for college but didn't intend using it much afterwards.

Personally, I would suggest using the Collections Model, which we're already used to. When you update the Timeline, create a collection called Timeline (2 vols), and include two datasets to that collection: Timeline 2012 and Timeline 2013. When you next bring out a new Timeline, create a new collection called Timeline (3 vols), and retire Timeline (2 vols). Give users dynamic pricing options, so that users who already own the 2 volume collection, and upgrade to the 3 volume collection at 66% off.

[Y][Y]

Graham Criddle

Hi Bob

Many thanks for the post - greatly appreciated.

In addition to what Mark has said:

Personally, I would suggest using the Collections Model, which we're already used to. When you update the Timeline, create a collection called Timeline (2 vols), and include two datasets to that collection: Timeline 2012 and Timeline 2013. When you next bring out a new Timeline, create a new collection called Timeline (3 vols), and retire Timeline (2 vols). Give users dynamic pricing options, so that users who already own the 2 volume collection, and upgrade to the 3 volume collection at 66% off.

how about using the Prepub model to introduce new datasets into collections?

This would allow users to "sign up" to purchasing new timeline events, verb tagging in the BSL, introduction of new maps, etc.

This should provide a mechanism for covering up-front development costs and then ongoing revenue as these new datasets are added to expanded collections as per Mark's suggestion.

I appreciate it might introduce complexity when an individual "user feature" utilises capabilities from multiple datasets!

Graham

toughski

I vote for option2 below

- Describe enhancements as data sets and 'lock' them in the user interface for users who don't purchase them. There is a "More Timeline Events" data set in the product configuration, but it really just enables the next 3,000 events in the existing timeline data set. A resource might be fully tagged with new metadata, but it doesn't get used if you haven't upgraded to a product containing the "Enhanced Resource Metadata Volume I" data set.

I am definitely against a subscription

Ward Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434734#Comment_434734

As always, Mark Barnes' perspective is one that I can harmonize to.

I've often wondered why Logos didn't sell version of it's reading engine, accompanied by options for capability plug-ins...when I work with sound/video/photo-processing software, it often works that way.

When I work with Microsoft corporately, I have options to purchase software and then to add software assurance for a recurring fee. Of course, for me the S/A has always been a losing proposition...but great for them because it normalizes base cash flow. If I don't get S/A, then I just get critical patches for a few years.

It is important to me to know that I'll keep having what I've paid for to date (at least until technology makes that not work anymore).

I'm always concerned that Logos has a future-day time bomb in it's sales model...how to keep the lights on once you've saturated the market?? Once again, I am concerned that I could see all the "reach-back" features suddenly go away someday if Logos hits a cash flow problem. I dont even know how well the stand-alone code would function if there wasn't a Logos to call home to...the product is increasingly dependent on back-end support/services.

I'm OK with paying for a substantial upgrade to capability--like a data set (aka enhanced plug-in), but agree with Mark that I'd understand it better if it was explained in familiar language like collections. The danger I see in this is that what good is half of a data set? It would be like selling a resource with the vowels removed... consider the case where a data set may be found to have substantial error/flaw and needs to be wholly revamped. Is that a "patch" or a "new volume"? Why would someone want to pay for the "old volume"?

(‾◡◝)

I wouldn't mind annual or semi-annual updates at minimal cost. Sort of like Apple does with its OS and MS is planning with Windows Blue (or so it is speculated - cf. http://www.pcworld.com/article/2017470/windows-blue-how-it-could-reinvent-windows-or-sink-windows-8.html ). I wouldn't even mind prepaying for the next update just to keep the cashflow wheels greased.

But I wouldn't want to commit to a subscription/contract.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

- Describe enhancements as data sets and 'lock' them in the user interface for users who don't purchase them. There is a "More Timeline Events" data set in the product configuration, but it really just enables the next 3,000 events in the existing timeline data set. A resource might be fully tagged with new metadata, but it doesn't get used if you haven't upgraded to a product containing the "Enhanced Resource Metadata Volume I" data set.

+1 [Y] for newer dataset edition(s) being locked until the edition has been purchased. Possibly could include notification in a feature about a locked edition being available with expanded information.

Wonder about adding Type:Dataset so could "see" dataset editions in my Library ?

Clicking on a dataset would open a feature that uses that content; if more than one feature, then clicking could be like FSD (Facilitate Serendipitous Discovery) to randomly open a feature.

Seems "More Timeline Events" is Timeline Events Edition 2. The planned number of editions for Timeline Events is unknown. A Logos Timeline feature for showing a Stack of Events on a map could require edition 2 of Timeline Events dataset since edition 1 did not have geographical information tagging with Events. A fascinating Timeline idea is integrating political boundaries in time with events so could use a slider to watch boundaries change and have icons appear on map with events so could click icon for more information.

- Sell data sets by subscription, not as discrete content items. Don't sell the timeline data set or Bible People or Bible Places data sets for a one-time price. Sell them only by subscription, so that a smaller, but continual, revenue stream can fund continued improvement and addition to the data sets.

Personally prefer one time pricing for dataset editions, which includes option for Logos payment plan.

Potentially, a set of dataset editions could be offered at a pre-publication price like => http://www.logos.com/product/7565/evangelical-exegetical-commentary and => http://www.logos.com/product/6786/lexham-discourse-hebrew-bible-bundle with editions being delivered later.

When the set of dataset editions expands, offer an upgrade, similar to several commentary series (e.g. Pillar).

Keep Smiling [:)]

Rich DeRuiter

Thanks for your thorough and detailed explanation of the program, product, resources and data sets. You explained this well, and a reference to your post here may help users understand what we are paying for and what it means when we hear that "the program is free."

As regards pricing models, there has to be an understanding at the time of purchase whether upgrades/updates will be included in the original price. Until now, that has been the assumption, even if it has not been explicitly stated. So any of the three options you mention is likely to get some user disapproval. It's good that you're talking about this with us now, and asking for input, rather than simply announcing a strategy, as this brings us on board as partners in solving the problem.

Personally, I like the idea of periodic (semi-annual or quarterly) paid updates to data sets, that would unlock new content. I'm concerned that you would have to sell us on the value of the updates each time, and then decide how to handle the situation where someone missed one or more update because the advertised data didn't seem interesting, and then wanted what was available in a secondary or tertiary update, without wanting to pay for the other updates. I'd suggest simply not allowing that scenario. Pricing would also be an issue. Too high and users won't want them. Too low and you won't cover your costs (and a lot of users won't buy them either - because a lot of users only buy at the time of version upgrades).

From a business perspective I can see how a subscription strategy would be attractive; you know what your income is and can spend accordingly. But many users don't like them (as is evident in this thread). Another issue to resolve is what happens to a user who does not subscribe for a year (e.g.), and then decides to subscribe. What would happen to him regarding the data he didn't subscribe to? Would he get an automatic upgrade? Would he have to 'buy in' before he could subscribe? Would he be unable to subscribe until the next version release?

That said, it seems reasonable that we users should pay for content, including content found in data sets. I would personally be open to a subscription type of arrangement, provided: (1) I keep whatever comes to me during the length of my subscription, (2)it is not economically disadvantageous to me (i.e., it's not a lot cheaper to wait for an annual data set update and/or a program upgrade to get the data), and (3) the data coming to me is not merely trivia - that is, it adds genuine scholarly/research value to me as a pastor/preacher.

Regarding my statement above about a subscription not being economically disadvantageous, I realize that in some way, to subscribe to such a service will, in effect, fund a project others might benefit from for less overall cost (either by waiting for base package upgrades, or data set upgrades). That doesn't bother me (unless their wait is too short), since I'll be able to use the data as soon as it's released - which also has value. But if a subscription service is accompanied by paid quarterly upgrades that are noticeably lower in cost than the subscription rate, I would quickly abandon a subscription. If semi-annual paid updates were made available, I would be slightly more interested in a subscription. If only annual upgrades were made available, in addition to a subscription service, I'd be much more interested. I would also want to know that at the end of the year, when I add up my subscription costs and compare them to a data set upgrade cost, that I didn't spend more than about one month's rate by subscribing. For instance, if a subscription was $10/mo., I wouldn't want to see a data set upgrade cost less than about $100. I know you'd want to sell data set upgrades, periodically, even if there is a subscription service, and you will want to create incentive to buy. One way to continue to incentivize subscriptions, even if you do sell data set upgrades, would be to lock the data in the data set upgrade at one month (or more) prior to release of the upgrade - so subscribers still have new data the annual buyers don't, even at the time of release.

I would also suggest that subscriptions be annual, and all start on the same date. Logos would have to work out what to do with people who want to subscribe mid-year, have never upgraded a data set, but now want to do so, and perhaps subscribe at the same time. That gets messy, very quickly. But all the models have messy aspects to them.

Graham Owen

- Describe enhancements as data sets and 'lock' them in the user interface for users who don't purchase them. There is a "More Timeline Events" data set in the product configuration, but it really just enables the next 3,000 events in the existing timeline data set. A resource might be fully tagged with new metadata, but it doesn't get used if you haven't upgraded to a product containing the "Enhanced Resource Metadata Volume I" data set.

This seems like a good way forward, I think that the biggest challenges would be:

Articulating the benefits of the different datasets so that existing users purchase them rather than wait for a major upgrade.
How to package the 'interim' datasets, I see a couple of options:
1. Market them individually, challenge here is that you could end up with a website full of dataset upgrades that is confusing for users.
2. Create packages based on areas of interest and version them as each feature is added, increasing the package price and offering upgrades based on the price difference between the version the user owns and the current version.

Assuming that you retain a 3 year major release cycle whichever approach you take it would probably make sense to level the base packages at the mid point the issues that I see here are:

If you don't do it then over 3 years the base package plus dataset upgrades could become complex and confusing.
If you price this too attractively then all existing users will simply wait for this option unless they have a compelling reason to purchase a specific dataset.

An alternative could be to consider the datasets as 'editions'. Using timelines as and example I currently own the 2012 edition and if this was a book when you published the 2013 edition with an extra 3,000 events I would have to the new edition if I want the extra detail. I know that for books you have offered special pricing for existing owners when new editions are published if you took this approach then the only difference would be that whereas I end up with both editions of a book I would only expect to have a single copy of the dataset (I can't see any reason why I would need both).

Whilst the edition concept works well for timelines I'm not sure how well it works for enhanced tagging as there would be an updated edition of a 'search' dataset but the improvements are realised through a book that has not changed edition. Not sure that this is a show stopper just a case of ensuring that the value of datasets is understood by users.

Presumably you would refresh the packages periodically i.e. when there have been a number of dataset upgrades. Again these could be a chargeable option for existing owners of that package whereas historically these package updates have been delivered free of charge.

Personally I'm not convinced by a subscription model but would probably pay for dataset upgrades if there is a clear value being offered.

James Hudson

Definitely, 100000% against any type of subscription model.

I'll pay up front, a one-off payment (even if it works out more than subscribing!!) for logos goodies.

Please don't go down the subscription route for anything!

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434513#Comment_434513

Thanks, Bob, for this very helpful post.

What is the best way to monetize enhancements / additions to content already sold?

Definitely, absolutely, certainly not a subscription, which has never worked for Logos (think the original Personal Book Builder licence, or the current FSB). Users hate this model for anything that they intend to use over a long period of time - unless the product is very expensive and a subscription makes it affordable. Logos 5 Portfolio for $100/month would be attractive to some, but probably only those who wanted something for college but didn't intend using it much afterwards.

Personally, I would suggest using the Collections Model, which we're already used to. When you update the Timeline, create a collection called Timeline (2 vols), and include two datasets to that collection: Timeline 2012 and Timeline 2013. When you next bring out a new Timeline, create a new collection called Timeline (3 vols), and retire Timeline (2 vols). Give users dynamic pricing options, so that users who already own the 2 volume collection, and upgrade to the 3 volume collection at 66% off.

[Y]

NetworkGeek

Thanks Bob for the explanation. Very well thought out, no surprise there!

Of the three choices you mention, it really comes out to:

1. Give it away for free and make it up elsewhere - probably appeases more users who see the word FREE related to Logos, and assume most everything is. As you mention, bad for Logos, and ultimately bad for users who (like myself) want to see Logos grow in its capability).

2. Enhance data sets, charge for them - I assume this would be largely bundled into upgrades (Logos 6 - enhanced timeline tagging, enhanced x, enhanced y...). I like this because users can evaluate cost vs. feature they are getting, Logos gets paid for what they do.

3. Subscription model - I am not against this as much as most are, but it does present a big scary unknown of a future expense that I may not be able to pay for forever, and then I lose something. Given how many users complain about prices I doubt this will fly, and that will limit Logos as well.

So I vote for Logos charging for the investment in the feature. Keep[p it seamless. Keep growing the functionality. I think more and better datasets is a great thing! I hope this doesn't mean more minor work on enhancing datasets can't continue through the life of a version, as that keeps us all excited and there is a lot of money coming in for upgrades, resources, etc. Maybe the model can make that happen.

Phil Gons (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434831#Comment_434831

Wonder about adding Type:Dataset so could "see" dataset editions in my Library ?

FWIW, you can see a list of all your datasets under Help > About Logos Bible Software:

Bible Facts

DB:BIBLICAL-EVENTS2012-10-30T23:24:10ZBiblicalEvents.lbsevt

DB:BIBLICAL-PEOPLE2012-11-20T18:34:29ZBiblicalPeople.lbsbpd

DB:BIBLICAL-PEOPLE-DIAGRAMS2012-10-30T16:52:56ZStaticPeopleGraphs.lbsspd

DB:BIBLICAL-PLACES2012-11-20T18:43:56ZBiblicalPlaces.lbsplc

DB:BIBLICAL-PLACES-MAPS2011-02-17T20:33:14ZBiblicalPlacesMaps.lbsmps

DB:BIBLICAL-REFERENTS2012-11-21T00:36:07ZBiblicalReferents.lbsbrd

DB:BIBLICAL-THINGS2012-11-20T20:08:26ZBiblicalThings.lbsthg

Bible Sense Lexicon

DB:WORD-SENSES2012-10-30T23:15:38ZWordSenses.lbswsd

Bible Word Study

DB:GRAMMAR-AF-ARC2010-04-07T18:15:45Zgrammar-af-arc.lbsgrm

DB:GRAMMAR-AF-HE2010-04-07T22:37:47Zgrammar-af-he.lbsgrm

DB:GRAMMAR-LBS-EL2010-02-09T00:13:12Zgrammar-lbs-el.lbsgrm

DB:GRAMMAR-LBS-EL-CSGNT2012-08-24T23:31:06Zgrammar-lbs-el-csgnt.lbsgrm

DB:PHRASE-CONCORDANCE2012-11-08T01:00:17ZPhraseConcordance.lbspcd

Clause Search

DB:CLAUSES-LGNTISBL2012-10-31T01:59:09ZClauses-LGNTISBL.lbscls

DB:CLAUSES-LHB2012-10-31T00:40:25ZClauses-LHB.lbscls

Compare Pericopes

DB:PERICOPESETS2012-10-17T17:52:22ZPericopeSets.lbspsd

Excerpts

DB:EXCERPTS2012-11-08T22:52:38Zexcerpts.lbsexc

Morph Search

DB:LEMMA-AF-ARC-HOT-DSS2012-10-17T01:02:20Zdss-morph-arc-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-AF-ARC-OT2012-10-17T01:01:56Zaf-morph-arc-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-AF-HE-HOT-DSS2012-10-17T01:02:18Zdss-morph-he-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-AF-HE-OT2012-10-17T01:01:53Zaf-morph-he-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-CAL-ARC-TARG2012-10-17T01:02:02Zcal-morph-arc-targ.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-FR-EL-NT2012-10-17T01:02:32Zfr-morph-el-nt.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-IN-ARC2012-10-17T01:02:36Zin-morph-arc.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-IN-SE2012-10-17T01:02:34Zin-morph-se.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-JS-EL-NT2012-10-17T01:02:48Zjs-morph-el-nt.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-ARC-HB2012-10-31T23:35:24Zlbs-morph-arc-hb.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-GAF2012-10-17T01:03:08Zlbs-morph-el-af.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-GIL2012-10-17T01:04:37Zlbs-morph-el-iliad.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-GWJ2012-10-17T01:03:43Zlbs-morph-el-gwj.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-GWP2012-10-17T01:04:18Zlbs-morph-el-gwp.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-LXX2012-10-17T01:05:18Zlbs-morph-el-lxx.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-NT2012-10-31T23:38:25Zlbs-morph-el-nt.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-EL-OTP2012-10-17T01:06:38Zlbs-morph-el-otp.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LBS-HE-HB2012-10-31T23:39:18Zlbs-morph-he-hb.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LLS-ARC-OT2012-10-17T01:07:57Zlls-morph-arc-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LLS-ARC-QSM2012-10-17T01:07:10Zlls-morph-arc-qsm.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LLS-EL-NT2012-10-17T01:07:22Zlls-morph-el-nt.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LLS-HE-OT2012-10-17T01:07:44Zlls-morph-he-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LLS-HE-QSM2012-10-17T01:07:54Zlls-morph-he-qsm.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-LPI-SYR-PESH2012-10-17T01:07:59Zlpi-morph-syr-pesh.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-S3-SYR-PESH2012-10-17T01:08:01Zs3morph-syr-pesh.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-SESB-ARC-OT2012-10-17T01:08:09Zsesb-morph-arc-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-SESB-HE-OT2012-10-17T01:08:07Zsesb-morph-he-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-WIVU-ARC-OT2012-10-17T01:08:12Zwivu-morph-arc-ot.lbslem

DB:LEMMA-WIVU-HE-OT2012-10-17T01:08:33Zwivu-morph-he-ot.lbslem

Sermon Starter Guide

DB:PREACHINGTHEMES2012-11-27T23:32:26ZPreachingThemes.lbsptd

DB:THEMATIC-OUTLINES2012-10-31T00:19:28ZThematicOutlines.lbstod

Speaker labels

DB:REPORTED-SPEECH2012-11-26T23:43:54ZReportedSpeech.lbsrsd

Syntax Search

DB:SYNTAX-AFAT2012-06-16T01:04:30ZAndersenForbesHebrewOT.lbssyn

DB:SYNTAX-CSGNT2012-10-04T15:04:00ZCSGNT.lbssyn

DB:SYNTAX-CSGNTSBL2012-10-04T15:05:35ZCSGNTSBL.lbssyn

DB:SYNTAX-LEXHAMSGNT2010-11-02T22:57:48ZSyntacticGNT.lbssyn

DB:SYNTAX-LEXHAMSGNTSBL2011-06-15T23:47:48ZLSGNTSBL.lbssyn

DB:SYNTAX-OPENTEXTGNT2011-08-30T15:50:41ZOpenText.lbssyn

Timeline

DB:UNIVERSAL-TIMELINE2012-10-31T00:02:53ZUniversalTimeline.lbsut

Topic Guide

DB:LCV2012-10-31T00:12:36ZLCV.lbslcv

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435073#Comment_435073

Wonder about adding Type:Dataset so could "see" dataset editions in my Library ?

FWIW, you can see a list of all your datasets under Help > About Logos Bible Software:

Appreciate About insights. If could show Type:Datasets in Library, could also "see" Last Updated, ratings, community tags, my tags, ...

The about list includes date and time of Dataset revision, but does not show when dataset was added/updated in my Library. Also, the About list is a bit challenging to count number of Datasets while grouping by Type in Library quickly shows resource count.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Jack Caviness

Thank you, Bob for that insight. I agree with Mark, Mark, and Graham.

(‾◡◝)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435097#Comment_435097

... just coming up for some air after spending the afternoon on Heb 9.16-17. [H]

While I don't think anyone wants Logos to sputter and cough along because of unpredictable cashflow and revenues, it also is impractical to think that everyone wants to jump into any sort of a subscription plan. And yet, it also is not right to simple say, "Gimme. Gimme. Gimme. I need. I need." and expect Logos to make it up somewhere else. This company deserves the support for the excellent work and services they provide ... don't want to muzzle the oxen while they are threshing. Consequently, it occurs to me that Bob's desire to charge for Dataset upgrades could be easily accommodated by using a tiered system.

At the very least expensive end of the scale would be those who are willing to allow Bob to tap their credit card automatically on a regular basis for the Update Service. All of the Datasets that they presently own would be updated on a continual basis until the end of the subscription period. IOW, a subscription plan.

Slightly more expensive (but still a 'significant' discount) would be those who are willing to prepay for upcoming updates. Not a subscription, per se, but desirous of assisting the Logos cashflow while keeping their L5 up to date. These Users can pick and choose which datasets they want to have updated and will get their updates as soon as they are released.

At the high cost end would be those who wish to upgrade after development/publication of the upgrade. These Users can also pick and choose which datasets they want to have updated ... and when. IOW, the most flexibility but the most cost.

Seems to me that something of this sort might be a good middle ground serving the needs of both Logos and Users. .

Armin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435126#Comment_435126

One other reason against subscription is that some of us have very varying incomes. I am sure I am not the only one who buys Logos resources when I have money not necessarily when I need them. But there might come a time when I need those resources but won't have the income. A subscription model would be very disadvantageous in this case.

Armin

Andy

I also agree with Mark and Graham.

My concern regarding a subscription model is less to do with the continuing cost (although this is a factor) and more to do with the fact that I want to own the functionality associated with the software. I am obviously prepared to pay for this functionality.

Lee

I believe Dataset is a term confusing for many. One complaint I seem to be hearing is "I had that data or that search capability all along, you're scamming me".

I would suggest calling it "Meta-Reference Engine" or something that sounded as tangible as code, then you could have your various levels and/or versions.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435192#Comment_435192

I believe Dataset is a term confusing for many.

I don't think confusion is the issue with many of the complainers. It is the "I want everything that I want, but I also want someone else to pay for what I want" mentality that has come to dominate the US. Can't speak for the rest of the world, but I see it increasing to dangerous levels in this country.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435215#Comment_435215

I believe Dataset is a term confusing for many.

I don't think confusion is the issue with many of the complainers. It is the "I want everything that I want, but I also want someone else to pay for what I want" mentality that has come to dominate the US. Can't speak for the rest of the world, but I see it increasing to dangerous levels in this country.

[Y][Y][Y]

Luuk Dondorp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435120#Comment_435120

And I agree with Jack, Mark, Mark and Graham.

No subscriptions!

Thank you, Bob for that insight. I agree with Mark, Mark, and Graham.

Alexander

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435234#Comment_435234

I'm in agreement with Mark especially. Two small things were also mentioned I don't think should be glossed over, although may not be completely related - more Lexham products in core packages (makes up for some of the weaknesses and cost control as it's a Logos generated product) and a "pre-pub" like system to help cover cost. I'd pay a one time fee for an upgrade but would welcome the opportunity to pre-pub it to save me a little money and help you cover the cost ahead of time.

DMB

1. No subscriptions.

2. I wonder about the requirement for inclusion of datasets in the collections (as the L5 rollout began), instead of separately purchasable (as L5 ended up).

Do the costs support separately purchasable datasets?

If so, that's my preference. I have a large Logos investment, but don't need fluffy books. But I am willing to pay 'premium' for the datasets.

However, having watched the OT Discourse prepub (which is really a dataset overlaying a text), sufficient purchasers to break-even is a question, and I assume matching the datasets to collections might be unavoidable?

Philip Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434513#Comment_434513

[Y]

Jon

The Logos data sets, however, are potentially never-finished projects on which unending resources can be expended.

This sounds like the heart of your dilemma.

If I were you I would:

1) Stop giving the software away for free... biblia.com negates the problem of digital obsolescence that the free upgrade approach addressed.

2) Sell the software updates with the new features and data with each major release, and charge a cost that reflects the costs involved (I guess ~$150 like the L5MC). In the marketing, give users this upgrade price and then offer the opportunity for cheap book bundles on top of that. (Having the first thing a user sees when looking at the L5 upgrade page be a large 4 figure number is not a great idea).

3) Offer a mid-cycle update to existing datasets for ~$50 and version them, I guess kind of like Adobe does with its CS release cycle. Something like $50 to update to Timeline, BSL, Topics etc v5.5. I think that this approach would give you some of the advantages of a subscription model with less anxiety for people who don't like subscriptions. If you could streamline your major release cycle down to two years, this would work even better [:)]

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435273#Comment_435273

Interesting post Bob, Thanks for letting us know and for the concern to ask.

Personally I never buy an “upgrade” till after –at the least- the first year. But from what I am reading, again, an upgrade was offered and sold that, well let’s face it, was chock full of issues[at least that’s what it appears from many a forum post]

So my return question is along the lines of:

Are you asking us if we would rather “subscribe” to the get product updates/upgrades that would originally be paid for with the understanding that the product was a viable working product with data sets that functioned and were complete[but some were not/?]?

-OR-

Are you asking us if we would rather continue to pay for an upgrade to a product that we originally bought as an “upgrade” thinking that it was working, and continue to do so until it gets done right, knowing that any and all updates would be an association that makes Logos what Logos is?

It seems that the bush got beat more than usual by your long winded approach, I am not sure…..and by the way what about those "under development" books/data sets that are in Pre-pub, will they no longer be applicable to L4 or will one have to upgrade to L$ to use them?

But I am willing to read a reply.

R4m.

fgh

Bob, I certainly understand your dilemma. However, I have to say what I always say in discussions like this (or think, when I never find the time to post): issues like this should be discussed and finalized before you launch, advertise and sell, not after. Once you've done that, you're bound to deliver what you've already sold. Two examples to illustrate:

The comparison chart shows the XYZ NT Reverse Interlinear as included. There is no line for an XYZ OT RI. This is perfectly clear and unambiguous. If/when an OT RI is produced, it will have to be bought and paid for in some other way.
The comparison chart shows the Bible Sense Lexicon as included, and you advertise it as "See what sense any English, Greek, or Hebrew word is used in with the Bible Sense Lexicon" (my bold). The customer then finds out only nouns are currently included. That is already deceptive and upsetting. Morally, and presumably legally, if you don't put in footnotes stating that this and that will be delivered later, you're obligated to deliver it upon purchase. Unfortunately, we've become so used to these things that we're no longer surprised by them, but if now, on top of that, you were to suddenly say "actually, coming to think of it, we'll release the verbs as a separate dataset, for which you'll have to pay extra", that would be extremely upsetting. (Not implying you're thinking about that; just using it as an example.)

It all comes down to what you've already promised, and what we have already paid for. You've promised free updates to the engine, so you've got to deliver free updates, at least for existing users. You've sold us the whole BSL, without any restrictions, so you've got to deliver the whole BSL. You've sold us Biblical Facts, so you've got to deliver Biblical Facts for the whole Bible. -- But if, after that, you want to create a 'Second Temple add-on' or an 'Anti-Nicene add-on' to Biblical Facts, then you certainly have every right to charge extra for that. Any dataset that's clearly not included in what we've already paid for, you can charge for (though I share [just about] everyone's objection to a subscription model).

This, as you have already noted, puts you -- and us -- in a rather awkward position when it comes to something like the Timeline. If you were in the habit of having things finished at launch, it would be simple: L5 includes version 1 of the Timeline, v 2 will come later and cost extra (similar to what you do with map sets). But since you're not in the habit of finishing things on time, there is no 'v 1'. No natural and for us understandable break. No way for us to know if we've bought something less than a 'complete' Timeline. Any division between a v 1 and a v 2 would be a completely unilateral decision by you.

So, for now I'd say you're bound by your own marketing. Once you've delivered on that, you can start charging extra, provided you make it clear what we get and what we don't get for our money.

Oh, and corrections to existing databases should always be free.

Our software can already search, display, analyze, slice and dice that content every which way.

Not quite. Not this way for example.[:)]

And although I haven't seen the L5 Timeline in action yet, I get the impression it's not quite up to my dreams in http://community.logos.com/forums/p/43428/324614.aspx#324614.

This is also a great idea:

A fascinating Timeline idea is integrating political boundaries in time with events so could use a slider to watch boundaries change and have icons appear on map with events so could click icon for more information.

(I have a few other ideas up my sleeve as well that I've never had time to post on.)

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434657#Comment_434657

By way of example I ordered a book which I returned within a week - the exchange rate varied to such an extent that I was refunded R50 (about $6) less than what I paid.

Ouch! The only time I've asked for a refund, they kept the money as a credit. Sounds like you should ask them to do that next time.

Kolen Cheung

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435688#Comment_435688

Thanks for listening. And since the day 1 you post this I've been thinking "outside the box" about things other than you've suggested. Because the three options you provided are quite trivial. For example option 1 will always be an option, regardless if option 2-3 are used or not. The only room remain for discussion is if other options can help simultaneously with option 1. Option 3 the subscription model sounds not doable at first glance, except that one suggestion seems more doable: once unsubscribed the user keeps what they have so far. But this is not having a problem of their own (room for more discussion). Option 2 seems like the only viable solution left, seemingly quite mandatory. And this is the approach you're using in Logos 5. The problem is not if you should use this approach but how to. Many others made a lot of suggestions on how to make it sound better for the customer (marketing, communicating).

so I actually suggests all the readers here think about the alternatives, in addition to suggestions on the way Logos should market and communicate.

I'm not good at this, just sharing what I'm thinking: collaborative effort (I don't know the exact word to use).

I believe that Logos creating so many Lexham resources and the new human input data set is to do market differentiation, to make Logos unique and valuable to the customers. But at the same time people want things free (see the tremendous success of Wikipedia killing some commercial alternatives for example). Logos should be more seriously providing tools and platforms for something like this. And this will also do the market differentiation for Logos. And actually open a door for users aiming at free product first (something like "The Word" with Logos engine?)

e.g. PPB. That should have great potential. But where's the platform? Logos should help to create a centralized place for these resources. I understand if Logos provide the bandwidth then it actually costs Logos a lot more. But what I'm suggesting might be something like a forum but tailored for PPB. Types, titles, languages, etc are organized, something like the way Logos resources are searched. And allow users to paste their web link for files. Yes this is an ugly solution that may lead to dead links, but at least it cut the costs. And for the same title, different users can submit different "versions" of their own, and let room for brief description (like OCRed, or proof read, or like with headings and verse link, etc.) and allow users to rate the condition of these different versions (actually all these ideas are from an online open effort of scanned music sheets).

Well, PPB seems not quite related to data sets, and now I'll relate to it: interlinear. I've been asking Logos to release a way for users to create interlinear, but no response so far, not even email response. I wanted to create my own Chinese-original language reverse interlinear as well as original language-Chinese interlinear. And Logos is not doing it either (I guess Logos don't have the resource to do this, so this is a great idea of letting the collaborative effort to do what Logos can't do and at the same time increase the value of Logos.) One of the elder brother I know is actually encouraging people all over the world to make their own interlinear. If my memory is correct the Indonesian Christians are doing it. Anyway, just saying a platform for open source interlinear would be of interest for many. You don't see them here in Logos because usually this people want to make them free. If Logos let it happen then they would use it. And logos earns the popularity, which would later be monetized (e.g. Some Christians using the Chinese interlinear will then look at other offerings in Logos that would help them e.g. The BDAG).

And even more, Logos can allow us to sell it, pretty much like what iBook Authors allow people to sell iBook in iBook store. That's the famous successful ecosystem Apple has been famous for.

And more data set like example: timeline. If users can create their own timeline and share like PPB, that would be awesome. Of course Logos still need to do the hard work tagging all their resources to have the time tag, but the timeline database can be expanded tremendously and dynamically.

More and more examples are trivial, e.g. Bible facts, maps, media. You got the idea.

My point is people want it free. Logos want market differentiation. And collaborate effort help to bridge these. This should not be the only way to do. Logos should do something unique and professional and charge for it (or put it in a base package), with the budget they have. But Logos should use this budget partially to fund providing tools for user input content at the same time. Both way would market differentiate Logos. And offering complementary alternatives to each other.

A few notes:

providing a way to provide user input content can also be complicated. Examples like PPB and iBook Authors are a good reference. Other example are the SDK released for programming. I guess PPB builder might be very costly to make since Logos want users to use it painlessly. But e.g. An interlinear builder need not be that painless to use. In fact those things are more technical. People creating them will expect some hard work. And some of the very contributing people wanting/creating things for free are excellent programmers. To get/deliver something free or even selling content make the barrier of painfully input code so low.

User created free contents should have a central platform to efficiently deliver it. Otherwise it will just be limited to small circles. User created charged contents can be allowed to sell in the Logos store, or at least in the platform I mentioned but downloaded from Logos' server.

There might be a concern of network traffic stress on Logos' server and customer service. But a model other softwares are using is that free users download it NOT from their servers but a third party, free, slow servers. And customer support is NOT available to these free users.

There will be many little details that might be problematic but I think the big picture is more important at this stage.

Kolen Cheung

Sorry that the iPad indentation are lost:

Thanks for listening. And since the day 1 you post
this I've been thinking "outside the box" about things other than you
has suggested. Because the three options you provided are quite trivial. For
example option 1 will always be an option, regardless if option 2-3 are used or
not. The only room remains for discussion is if other options can help
simultaneously with option 1. Option 3 the subscription model sounds not doable
at first glance, except that one suggestion seems more doable: once
unsubscribed the user keeps what they have so far. But this is not having a
problem of its own (room for more discussion). Option 2 seems like the only
viable solution left, seemingly quite mandatory. And this is the approach
you're using in Logos 5. The problem is not if you should use this approach but
how to. Many others made a lot of suggestions on how to make it sound better
for the customer (marketing, communicating).

So I actually suggest all the readers here think
about the alternatives, in addition to suggestions on the way Logos should
market and communicate.

I'm not good at this, just sharing what I'm thinking:
collaborative effort (I don't know the exact word to use).

I believe that Logos creating so many Lexham
resources and the new human input data set is to do market differentiation, to
make Logos unique and valuable to the customers. But at the same time people
want things free (see the tremendous success of Wikipedia killing some
commercial alternatives for example). Logos should be more seriously providing
tools and platforms for something like this. And this will also do the market
differentiation for Logos. And actually open a door for users aiming at free
product first (something like "The Word" with Logos engine?)

E.g. PPB. That should have great potential. But
where's the platform? Logos should help to create a centralized place for these
resources. I understand if Logos provide the bandwidth then it actually costs
Logos a lot more. But what I'm suggesting might be something like a forum but
tailored for PPB. Types, titles, languages, etc. are organized; something like
the way Logos resources are searched. And allow users to paste their web link
for files. Yes this is an ugly solution that may lead to dead links, but at
least it cut the costs. And for the same title, different users can submit
different "versions" of their own, and let room for brief description
(like OCRed, or proof read, or like with headings and verse link, etc.) and
allow users to rate the condition of these different versions (actually all
these ideas are from an online open effort of scanned music sheets).

Well, PPB seems not quite related to data sets, and
now I'll relate to it: interlinear. I've been asking Logos to release a way for
users to create interlinear, but no response so far, not even email response. I
wanted to create my own Chinese-original language reverse interlinear as well
as original language-Chinese interlinear. And Logos is not doing it either (I
guess Logos don't have the resource to do this, so this is a great idea of
letting the collaborative effort to do what Logos can't do and at the same time
increase the value of Logos.) One of the elder brother I know is actually
encouraging people all over the world to make their own interlinear. If my
memory is correct the Indonesian Christians are doing it. Anyway, just saying a
platform for open source interlinear would be of interest for many. You don't
see them here in Logos because usually this people want to make them free. If
Logos let it happen then they would use it. And Logos earns the popularity,
which would later be monetized (e.g. Some Christians using the Chinese
interlinear will then look at other offerings in Logos that would help them
e.g. The BDAG).

And even more, Logos can allow us to sell it, pretty
much like what iBook Authors allow people to sell iBook in iBook store. That's
the famous successful ecosystem Apple has been famous for.

And more data set like example: timeline. If users
can create their own timeline and share like PPB, that would be awesome. Of
course Logos still need to do the hard work tagging all their resources to have
the time tag, but the timeline database can be expanded tremendously and
dynamically.

More and more examples are trivial, e.g. Bible facts,
maps, media. You got the idea.

My point is people want it free. Logos want market
differentiation. And collaborate effort help to bridge these. This should not
be the only way to do. Logos should do something unique and professional and
charge for it (or put it in a base package), with the budget they have. But
Logos should use this budget partially to fund providing tools for user input
content at the same time. Both ways would market differentiate Logos and
offering complementary alternatives to each other.

A few notes:

Providing a way to provide user input content can
also be complicated. Examples like PPB and iBook Authors are a good reference.
Other examples are the SDK released for programming. I guess PPB builder might
be very costly to make since Logos want users to use it painlessly. But e.g. an
interlinear builder need not be that painless to use. In fact those things are
more technical. People creating them will expect some hard work. And some of
the very contributing people wanting/creating things for free are excellent
programmers. To get/deliver something free or even selling content make the
barrier of painfully input code so low.

User created free contents should have a central
platform to efficiently deliver it. Otherwise it will just be limited to small
circles. User created charged contents can be allowed to sell in the Logos
store, or at least in the platform I mentioned but downloaded from Logos'
server.

There might be a concern of network traffic stress on
Logos' server and customer service. But a model other software are using is
that free users download it NOT from their servers but a third party, free,
slow servers. And customer support is NOT available to these free users.

There will be many little details that might be
problematic but I think the big picture is more important at this stage.

Nathan Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435924#Comment_435924

It's good to see Bob posting this and asking us about this prior to executing future plans. I'll give a few thoughts on the subject...

1. I could go for a subscription if the subscription was "done right". If A. Logos gave us "all access" to every Logos resource out there, or even B. Access to high end base collections at a lower cost then the upgrade fees, I could go for it. If financially it made more sense to subscribe then to shell out a hefty amount of funds from the start, I could go for it. It's how Logos markets Proclaim today, and I do see the value in it in over hefty upgrade fees (at times).

Or on the subscription level, Logos could bundle the FSB and any future datasets into a subscription package and offer it. Provided Logos is frequently updating the FSB and datasets and keeping them fresh and current, it'd be worth paying a subscription for them. Additionally, I agree with the others, that if Logos went this route, if someone cancelled their subscription, they would not lose what they already own in the datasets. They would simply not receive any further updates to them. That way they're not "renting" the datasets and lose anything if they cancel. They simply stop receiving new content if they stop paying but get to keep what they paid for.

2. Another way I see that Logos could do it is specifically state "versions" of their datasets and specifically state what is included in each "version". For example, the Logos Timeline could be called the "Timeline v5". In Logos 6, Logos could release a new Timeline version called "Timeline v6" and specifically state what new content is included in the new "version". If I want the new content in "Timeline v6", I'll pay to upgrade to it. If I don't, I can download the L6 engine for free, and still use "Timeline v5"'s content inside L6, I just don't get the new data.

Then Logos could (as they're doing now) bundle these with each upgrade's base packages, as well as release a Minimal Crossgrade. So come time for L6, Logos would release "Dataset Names v6", tell me what new data I'm getting, and I can choose if I want the new data or not. If I want it, I'll get a Minimal Crossgrade. If I want it and the new books Logos wants to offer me at a discount, I'll upgrade to a new Logos base collection, just like today.

3. Logos could take the "versions" and still go a different route, using the prepub program. For example, I buy "Timelines v5". Logos then wants to release "Timelines v6". They could put it on prepub, and allow us to purchase it off the prepub program. It's similar to some book collections today. For example, I own the collection Preaching the Word. I have all the books that came in it when I bought this collection. Logos is now working on adding additional books to Preaching the Word. If I want them, I simply purchase the Preaching the Word "upgrade" off of prepub.

4. I agree that Logos' marketing team needs to be more specifc on what we actually get in datasets, and also be careful not to overpromise and underdeliver. Logos doesn't need to "wow" us. We're not a bunch of hip fadsters that are always chasing the "next big thing". We're seasoned and loyal Logos customers, and will continue to be for a while. Just give us the facts. Show us what these datasets can do for us and tell us why they're going to take our Bible study to another level, and if we want them, we'll buy them. Tell us what we're getting and why we want to purchase them.

Personally I think the best idea is to go to "versioned" datasets and offer them either on prepub or with each upgrade as I mentioned. Subscription could work if done right, and Logos may even want to embrace subscriptions later, but I don't think we're quite there yet.

David Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434540#Comment_434540

Fully agree. I don't use proclaim nor recommend faith life study Bible because they are subscription based.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/436168#Comment_436168

faith life study Bible because they are subscription based.

Worth mentioning that the FSB is now included in L5 base packages.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/434824#Comment_434824

As always, Mark Barnes' perspective is one that I can harmonize to.

I've often wondered why Logos didn't sell version of it's reading engine, accompanied by options for capability plug-ins...when I work with sound/video/photo-processing software, it often works that way.

When I work with Microsoft corporately, I have options to purchase software and then to add software assurance for a recurring fee. Of course, for me the S/A has always been a losing proposition...but great for them because it normalizes base cash flow. If I don't get S/A, then I just get critical patches for a few years.

It is important to me to know that I'll keep having what I've paid for to date (at least until technology makes that not work anymore).

I'm always concerned that Logos has a future-day time bomb in it's sales model...how to keep the lights on once you've saturated the market?? Once again, I am concerned that I could see all the "reach-back" features suddenly go away someday if Logos hits a cash flow problem. I dont even know how well the stand-alone code would function if there wasn't a Logos to call home to...the product is increasingly dependent on back-end support/services.

I'm OK with paying for a substantial upgrade to capability--like a data set (aka enhanced plug-in), but agree with Mark that I'd understand it better if it was explained in familiar language like collections. The danger I see in this is that what good is half of a data set? It would be like selling a resource with the vowels removed... consider the case where a data set may be found to have substantial error/flaw and needs to be wholly revamped. Is that a "patch" or a "new volume"? Why would someone want to pay for the "old volume"?

Thanks for taking the time to clarify your terminology.

“Logos Bible Software is a product that consists of code and content.” That is a clear and concise statement.

“But the point has always been to ensure continued access to purchased content through various platform and operating system upgrades, at no additional cost.” That is also a clear and concise statement and probably the better of the two. Moreover it’s the one I hold on dearly to when I hear an upgrade is coming out.

While these statements and other do clarify your terminology, from the other side of the purchasing counter they may not be understood in the same way as they are internally. Here is the rub, it is apparent that the same confusion and concerns have risen to the top with the roll-out of L5 as there was the L3 to L4 upgrade and these types of clarifying post, statements, and web pages come out after the roll-out instead of before.

Now I know Mr. Pritchett that you and your staff have strived to be as clear as possible.

Nevertheless the choice of explanatory vocabulary and timing (marketing/communication) seem to be relevant negative factors. What may be internally clear to you and your team doesn’t necessary communicate very clearly to your average user. I’m not a marketing wiz and I may even lack the necessary skills to explain this well enough but when the issue is the same with two Logos version roll-outs it’s time to look at the choice of explanatory vocabulary, communication timing and marketing approach and equally or even more so with the comprehension of these with your purchasing base. Very much what I think you are attempting here, although belated. Clearly what is understood internally to you and your staff isn’t necessary communicate very clearly to your average purchasing base (though some do understand, notice what segment of your purchasing base they are. Are they longer term users who have made it through an upgrade or two? Perhaps power users who have been on the forums for years.).

If I understand you correctly I like what you have communicated.

The adopted scenario for software buyers is primarily functionality. I.E. If I only need some smaller portion of functionality I might buy Adobe Photoshop Elements. If perhaps I need something more I might buy Adobe Lightroom. Still further Adobe Photoshop or Photoshop Extended. Or even a suite of Adobe tools. What an Adobe purchaser is buying is functionality not code-Semitics? -Subjective point of view? Certainly but well adopted by the software consumer. All things being equal this would apply 100%.

Though they may not agree with everything I have said I do agree with both Mark Barnes and Ward Walker and a few others with what they have communicated as concerns going forward. Nevertheless, while Logos is unique because of the content, when I buy software I buy for functionality just like I buy any other software.

Further thoughts from the other side of the purchasing counter:

I like buying books with functionality.

I like the concept of buying functionality.

I like the ideal that the books have the functionality built into them.

I like that I have access to that functionality based on the level of functionality (Silver, Gold, etc.,) that I would purchase. In other word that functionality is only release by the “data set” level I have purchased.

I know what books I want and what books I don’t want. Discounted or not, paying for books I don’t want so that I can gain functionality is, to be mild, irritating.

Books have a price tag. Functionality has a price tag. I understand

I have bought books and I want to maintain a certain level of functionality with those books.

“But the point has always been to ensure continued access to purchased content through various platform and operating system upgrades, at no additional cost.”

Unfortunately “continued access” does NOT always mean “continued functionality” when moving to a new upgrade.

Simplification would be a boon. Books and functionality.

Anthony H

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/435680#Comment_435680

Bob, I certainly understand your dilemma. However, I have to say what I always say in discussions like this (or think, when I never find the time to post): issues like this should be discussed and finalized before you launch, advertise and sell, not after. Once you've done that, you're bound to deliver what you've already sold. Two examples to illustrate:

It all comes down to what you've already promised, and what we have already paid for. You've promised free updates to the engine, so you've got to deliver free updates, at least for existing users.

If you were in the habit of having things finished at launch, it would be simple: L5 includes version 1 of the Timeline, v 2 will come later and cost extra (similar to what you do with map sets). But since you're not in the habit of finishing things on time, there is no 'v 1'. No natural and for us understandable break. No way for us to know if we've bought something less than a 'complete' Timeline. Any division between a v 1 and a v 2 would be a completely unilateral decision by you.

So, for now I'd say you're bound by your own marketing. Once you've delivered on that, you can start charging extra, provided you make it clear what we get and what we don't get for our money.

Oh, and corrections to existing databases should always be free.

[;)]