BWS: some observations and suggestions
Observed in Logos 5 (probably true for Logos 4).
In the Lemma section (of a Hebrew or Greek word), the mini column chart shows the number of times this original language word occurs in a manuscript used by an english bible (OT/NT). I have noticed that this number in the chart does not always agree with the number in the chart of the Translation section. An example is shown below. What causes the discrepancy?
Click on the column chart in the Lemma section and it launches the Graph Bible Search Results. I now see that this Graph tool is based on how many times the language word occurs in the interlinear or manuscript supported by my highest prioritized bible (NIV):
Note1: In the Graph Bible Search Results, I am not able to select another bible that has the language interlinear; it is locked to the highest prioritized bible that has the corresponding interlinear, NIV in my example. I would have to change my bible priority (in Library tool) to reflect a different bible in the Graph tool.
Note2: In the Translation section, the mini column chart shows the number of times the language word occurs in the interlinear or manuscript of the bible that I used to launch the BWS (in example, ESV). The number of occurrences is NOT based on my highest prioritized bible with corresponding interlinear. If I launch the BWS (using a Greek or Hebrew word) from my highest prioritized bible, then the mini column charts will agree.
Suggestion 1: The mini column chart in the Lemma
section should be based on the bible that I use to launch the BWS. This should make both mini column charts agree in the number of word occurrences.
Suggestion 2: if, for whatever reason, the mini column chart needs to be based on my highest prioritized bible having the corresponding language interlinear, then allow the user to select another bible in the Graph Bible Search Results
Maybe I am not understanding the relationship between a mini column chart and the Graph tool. Does Logos have a reason for why the BWS and Graph tools behave this way?
Comments?
David
Comments
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DBailey said:
Suggestion 1: The mini column chart in the Lemma
section should be based on the bible that I use to launch the BWS. This should make both mini column charts agree in the number of word occurrences.I would agree if it is a RI because the Translation section has to be an RI. Logos' thinking would be that you always know the result in your prioritized RI.
DBailey said:Suggestion 2: if, for whatever reason, the mini column chart needs to be based on my highest prioritized bible having the corresponding language interlinear, then allow the user to select another bible in the Graph Bible Search Results
The Prioritized RI would have to be used in both sections if source was a non-RI, or you manually input the word. This keeps the results in sync; which is what you wanted from Suggestion 1.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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DBailey said:
I have noticed that this number in the chart does not always agree with the number in the chart of the Translation section. An example is shown below. What causes the discrepancy?
I'm struggling to find any NT that only has 316 results for logos. Do you know what resource is producing those results?
<edit>That's a bug. The spark graph for NIV84 and NIV2011 shows the number of verses, nor the number of occurrences.</edit>
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
I'm struggling to find any NT that only has 316 results for logos.
NIV 2011/NIV 84 actually have 330 results in 318 verses. But NIV 2011 translates only 316 of these and this is the basis of results quoted in the Lemma and Translation sections.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
But NIV 2011 translates only 316 of these and this is the basis of results quoted in the Lemma and Translation sections.
Correct and explained in detail on the other thread. Note that verses containing the lemma is the count actually shown in the bar graph.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DBailey said:
What causes the discrepancy?
This is explained on the other thread. The count is the number of verses that include the lemma in the Lemma section. In all the translation style sections, the count is the number of verse in which the lemma has a specific translation. If the lemma is translated by two different words in a single verse, this results in double counting.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DBailey said:
Note1: In the Graph Bible Search Results, I am not able to select another bible that has the language interlinear; it is locked to the highest prioritized bible that has the corresponding interlinear, NIV in my example. I would have to change my bible priority (in Library tool) to reflect a different bible in the Graph tool.
This is at least partially because the Graph Bible Search results are based on a lemma search you did not run. Without the Search open, there is no way to modify the Search.
DBailey said:Does Logos have a reason for why the BWS and Graph tools behave this way?
See the other thread or the Q&A in the wiki for the explanation of their behavior. I think with the modifications I've made this evening, it's all there.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
which other thread?
This one: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/61455.aspx (should have linked it higher up, sorry)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Thanks Mark, I should have sought the link out but I was in a hurry. Somehow much of my time was spent trying to balance counts and time ran out.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
This is explained on the other thread. The count is the number of verses that include the lemma in the Lemma section. In all the translation style sections, the count is the number of verse in which the lemma has a specific translation. If the lemma is translated by two different words in a single verse, this results in double counting.
The count is not a number of verses. It is number of occurrences that are translated in the RI. See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61455/436024.aspx#436024
e.g. NRSV - not translated at Lk 23.9, Act 20.24. Therefore 330 - 2 = 328 count in Lemma section
ESV - not translated at Phil 4.15. Therefore 330 - 1 = 329 count in BWS.
NIV - not translated 14x. Therefore 330 - 14 = 316 count in BWS
NIV84 - not translated 12x. Therefore 330 - 12 = 318 count in BWS
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I agree with you that the RI omits cases that are not translated. You are correct that I misspoke on the counts ... go with what I wrote in balancing not what I said off the top of my head.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dave Hooton said:MJ. Smith said:
This is explained on the other thread. The count is the number of verses that include the lemma in the Lemma section. In all the translation style sections, the count is the number of verse in which the lemma has a specific translation. If the lemma is translated by two different words in a single verse, this results in double counting.
The count is not a number of verses. It is number of occurrences that are translated in the RI. See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/61455/436024.aspx#436024
e.g. NRSV - not translated at Lk 23.9, Act 20.24. Therefore 330 - 2 = 328 count in Lemma section
ESV - not translated at Phil 4.15. Therefore 330 - 1 = 329 count in BWS.
NIV - not translated 14x. Therefore 330 - 14 = 316 count in BWS
NIV84 - not translated 12x. Therefore 330 - 12 = 318 count in BWS
I'm thinking the same. For the histogram (mini column chart) in the Lemma section, is the software counting strictly the occurrence of the Greek lemma (exact match of logos)?
David
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DBailey said:
I'm thinking the same. For the histogram (mini column chart) in the Lemma section, is the software counting strictly the occurrence of the Greek lemma (exact match of logos)?
The column chart from both Lemma and Translation sections repeats a strict Search count (330) ...misleading.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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