Query to find words that occur in NT but not in LXX

Page 1 of 2 (29 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 28 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Dec 27 2009 7:14 PM

Ok. This might seem obscure but I actually have an immediate need for this.

A chapter of my dissertation is on the Paraclete passages in John.

Parakletos occurs 5 times in the NT but not at all in the LXX.

It would be helpful to me to know how many other theologically significant words occur in the NT but do not occur in the LXX.

Can anyone think of a way to construct a query that would find all the words that occur in the NT but not the LXX?

I'm not sure how to search for all words nor how to compare the results from two different resources.

 

 

Posts 27852
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 27 2009 9:20 PM

Russ,

I'm handicapped by not having access to L3/L4 at this time. For starters you won't be able to accomplish this in L4! Maybe in L3 because you can construct Word Lists (of lexemes). But where do you get your list of theologically significant words that occur in the NT? Probably from TDNT. And then you need a lexicon of Septuagint words.

  • Construct a word list from the LXX Lexicon (this isn't as simple as it sounds)
  • Construct a Graphical Query  - a single term using the Word List & searching on the head terms in TDNT (Field = lemma from memory, but check About this resource for its Fields).
  • Theoretically, the words in TDNT that are not search hits is what you want!

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 2765
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 12:51 AM

could you not extract the LXX word list thru a Logos Greek Morph search? @N [OR @morph]..

repeat [ ] section for each criteria ie V,B,C,D,I,J,N,P,R,T,X and maybe others, it will take an eon (3 mins on mine) to search >530,000 hits, then use analysis (a long time maybe 30+ mins) and then export to spreadsheet

do same with NT, and then use excel or access to compare/analyse further

I would use small groups maybe 3 filters per search based on my trials..

@V OR @N returns >231,000 hits alone, see the yellow 10000 warning, I dont know it that affects the export.

 

 

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 2765
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 1:32 AM

:( it only exports the first 10000 as well, rather than the full dataset, hopefully Logos will change this in the future

 EDIT

And again the analysis view pulls out more info than requested, its really starting to annoy me.

Why when you have specified "Logos Greek Morphology" is it extracting the Hebrew AF lemmas??

if you're gonna cap the analysis, at least let it pull out ONLY what WE specify...

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 27852
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 2:39 AM

That's why I discounted L4 because we need to work with Word Lists (especially NT words of theological significance) and not search hits with multiple occurrences of each word. If the Graphical Query fails then we can compare two exported Word Lists in Excel or Access.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 7:40 AM

Thanks guys.

You've given me some angles to work. I was concerned that this might require Word Lists.

I'll work on some of these ideas and let you know what I find.

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 8:20 AM

Alas I've run into a show stopping problem with working in L3.

My search windows are exhibiting a strange behavior. All of my Results screens are restricting the scrollable area to a small section at the very top.

I'm afraid troubleshooting my L3 install is more than I have time to address with my defensible draft due at the end of January.

Thanks again for the suggestions. I plan on revisiting the issue at a more opportune time.

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 9:39 AM

One more try with L4 on this. Here is where I am now.

I've limited a search in GNT to John for all nouns and got the following results:

And a query for all nouns in the LXX with the following results:

I thought I might be able to use Basic or Bible search to compare the hits from NA27 with the hits from LXX but both queries I built above resolve to the same thing: 
([field bible] <lbs-morph+el ~ N????>)

Is there a way to modify this string to limit the results to a particular resource? I am envisioning something like this:

This is obviously the wrong syntax but is something like this possible?

 

Posts 2765
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 9:42 AM

I see you are in simple rather than morph, might that be why?

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 9:51 AM

Russ Quinn:


 


 

Is there a way to modify this string to limit the results to a particular resource? I am envisioning something like this:


 

Russ,

yes....just make a collection with nothing but the LXX and NA27 in it...do a search and rank "by book"

 

I did that and found that it was easier to to compare the results using two separate searches....

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 10:28 AM

DominicM:

I see you are in simple rather than morph, might that be why?

Dominic,

Perhaps something similar could be done in Morph search along these lines?

I'm not sure that what I want to achieve with "bible:lxx" is even possible but hopefully you can see what I am trying to do.

The crux of my question boils down to two issues:

1. Are there query operators that allow specifying the passage limits, source text, and morphology apart from the drop down menus of the search tool?

2. If so, is there an operator that allows comparing the results between sources? I tried NOTEQUALS above but am not sure that is what it would do.

If these things are not currently possible, I wonder if the implementation of Word Lists in a future update will allow me to achieve the results I am seeking.

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 10:35 AM

Robert Pavich:

Russ,

yes....just make a collection with nothing but the LXX and NA27 in it...do a search and rank "by book"

 

I did that and found that it was easier to to compare the results using two separate searches....

Robert,

Thanks for the suggestion.

What I am after is one result list that contains the verses in the NT (or just the Gospel of John really) that contain words that are not used in the LXX.

Do you see a way of finding those words by comparing the results of the two separate searches?

I think this would effectively be the same as opening up the New Testament and the LXX in two different panes.

Posts 27852
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 4:39 PM

Russ Quinn:

1. Are there query operators that allow specifying the passage limits, source text, and morphology apart from the drop down menus of the search tool?

2. If so, is there an operator that allows comparing the results between sources? I tried NOTEQUALS above but am not sure that is what it would do.

If these things are not currently possible, I wonder if the implementation of Word Lists in a future update will allow me to achieve the results I am seeking.

1. No (you can initiate a search from Command bar but I don't think this is what you are after)

2. No search compares two resources - it always looks for results in one resource.

3. I know that big Word Lists in L3 are possible but time-consuming. I think that an L4 implementation should be faster & more convenient (but not in time for you!).

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 28 2009 4:58 PM

Thanks, Dave, for your help on this. Sorry for being so dense. I am just not very familiar with how search works in Logos.

Dave Hooton:

2. No search compares two resources - it always looks for results in one resource.

I really hope there is future development on this. It would be great to be able to compare hits from discreet searches.

Dave Hooton:

3. I know that big Word Lists in L3 are possible but time-consuming. I think that an L4 implementation should be faster & more convenient (but not in time for you!).

I figured out my problem with my installation of L3. It was a fresh install that just needed updating to 3.0g.

So I am back in the game on trying to use it.

If I create a word list of unique lemmas from the Greek text of John and a similar word list from the LXX, I think I can then create a new word list that includes the words from John but excludes the words from the LXX. Is that right?

So far I have created a Word List from the Greek text of the Gospel of John.

My first problem with that is that I can't seem to find a way to restrict the word list to unique lemmas instead of unique lexical forms. Is that possible?

Posts 27852
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2009 1:22 AM

Russ Quinn:

If I create a word list of unique lemmas from the Greek text of John and a similar word list from the LXX, I think I can then create a new word list that includes the words from John but excludes the words from the LXX. Is that right?

So far I have created a Word List from the Greek text of the Gospel of John.

My first problem with that is that I can't seem to find a way to restrict the word list to unique lemmas instead of unique lexical forms. Is that possible?

I just got my laptop back again (power supply went AWOL) and it is harder than I thought.

Vocabulary List get the lemmas from Bibles but Word Lists get the surface text. So you have to create a Vocab List, select all, copy and paste into a Word List. The sort order means you can easily eliminate the numbers and English glosses. I did this for some text from the LXX and duplicate words are eliminated. then I constructed a Graphical Query on the TDNT  using Field = Lemma and the results show that is a possible route if one can get all the words from LXX!

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 27852
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2009 2:34 AM

We need a more intelligent Word List in L4, one that can take words from any source (not just bibles) and specify whether lemmas or surface text are required from a bible. We should also be able to use a word list in a Search.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 27852
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2009 2:53 AM

Russ Quinn:

Dave Hooton:

2. No search compares two resources - it always looks for results in one resource.

I really hope there is future development on this. It would be great to be able to compare hits from discreet searches.

I use Verse Lists in L3 to compare two (bible) searches. If we can populate Word Lists the way I suggested (eg. directly from two lexicons) then we should request that Logos allow us to compare them. Putting words from search results into a Word List might also be possible.

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 13428
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2009 4:08 AM

Russ Quinn:

My search windows are exhibiting a strange behavior. All of my Results screens are restricting the scrollable area to a small section at the very top.

Wasn't that a problem with 3.0e that was fixed in 3.0f? Anyway, we're on 3.0g now, so it's worth checking you have the latest version.

This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2009 7:44 AM

Mark Barnes:

Wasn't that a problem with 3.0e that was fixed in 3.0f? Anyway, we're on 3.0g now, so it's worth checking you have the latest version.

Thanks, Mark. That was the problem. I hadn't used L3 in quite awhile. This was a recent clean install on a virtual machine from a DVD. I forgot to do the appropriate updates. 

Dave,

Thanks for the tips. I am going to work on them later today.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2009 9:20 AM

Russ, I think I have a potential start for you.

I ran @N ANDNOT <LN~93> in the Gospel of John with Analysis. I figured names wouldn't be useful for your dissertation. Then I exported to Excel and trimmed the file just to lemmas. I used Excel to eliminate duplicate values/lemmas and have a list of nouns in John minus the names.Here is an excel file of 235 nouns. I figure you could hand trim it to what you would consider to be theologically significant.

I'm working on a way to figure out how to get a lemma list from the LXX.

0410.Nonname Nouns in John.xlsx

Page 1 of 2 (29 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS