Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive ... no longer sold?
Hi.
I noticed on my wish list that Mark Driscoll's Sermon Archive is no longer sold.
Has anybody heard anything about this? Or is this a site error?
Thanks.
2017 15" MBP, iPad Pro
Comments
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If you do a quick Google search for "mark driscoll sermons disappearing", you'll get an idea of what is going on.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Hmm, not trying to get anything started, but could it be related to his plagiarism in the past? Maybe some of those sermons contained material that was not originally his. Who knows! Personally, I could care less. Everybody uses someone else's material anyway. We use the Bible which is from God, and we use commentaries, illustrations, etc. that someone else wrote. Oh well!
DAL
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God doesn't mind if you use him as a source as long as you give credit: "Thus saith the Lord"
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Martin Folley said:
I noticed on my wish list that Mark Driscoll's Sermon Archive is no longer sold.
Has anybody heard anything about this? Or is this a site error?
I didn't notice this but I have considered getting this. I would like to know more too.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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William Gabriel said:
God doesn't mind if you use him as a source as long as you give credit: "Thus saith the Lord"
Nobody uses that expression anymore. We use the equivalents, "The Word of God says" or in simple terms "The Bible says" or even "Jesus said" or to your surprise, "The Apostle Paul said" (knowing he was inspired and that his words came from God).
The only time people say "Thus saith the Lord" (old English) is in illustrations to "illustrate" the point that we must speak God's Word and not ours.
Just an observation [;)]
Ps. The way I give credit to the sources is by listing them in the foot notes, but I don't say, "Let me give you an illustration I got from the book '1001 Illustrations that Connect' page 28, by author Larson and Ten - Zondervan Publications copy right 2008." That'd be ridiculous for a preacher to state all that information before giving an illustration. Besides, there are some topics that may seem plagiarized but are not because if you ask the question: "Why do people sin?" Many of the answers by different people are the same because it's common sense. I could have my list of ten reasons why people sin and it may very well be the same 10 reasons author so and so published in his book and now am I a plagiarizer just because he published them in a book and I didn't but I still use them because I came up with the same ideas on a topic that's pretty much going to yield the same results? There may be things you shouldn't plagiarize but there are others where things you "come up with" are just common sense and others will "come up with" them no matter what.
Anyway, just my 2 cents on that.
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I'm just surprised Protestant pastors treat each other similar to priests (just missing a pope or two). Pastors apparently like to manage each other, demand proper apologies, and require bowing down with appropriate obsequiousness. Whatever happened to the NT-ish thing? All Driscoll needs to do is quote Apostle Paul 'I do not lie!' Works great.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
I'm just surprised Protestant pastors treat each other similar to priests (just missing a pope or two). Pastors apparently like to manage each other, demand proper apologies, and require bowing down with appropriate obsequiousness. Whatever happened to the NT-ish thing? All Driscoll needs to do is quote Apostle Paul 'I do not lie!' Works great.
Well, as one Spanish version says, "Some think religion is a business" 1 Timothy 6:5 or as the usual says, "Some think godliness is a way of gain." Or as the Amplified version says, "...who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a source of profit [a moneymaking business, a means of livelihood]. From such withdraw."
The Amplified Bible. (1987). (1 Ti 6:5). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
Reminds me of an old preacher who once was told by one of the members that the sermon he had preached was not his because the member said he had read it in "Brother so and so's book." To that the old preacher replied, "Nope, that sermon is mine. I paid $2.50 for it, so it's mine." Or as another preacher said, "The key to originality is to forget where you got it from." [:P]
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haha.
I don't want to revel in the defeat (under siege?) of a brother.
However DAL, the way I heard that was in regards to sermon illustrations. First time you use it, you're careful to cite Spurgeon for his story verbally and in the bulletin, the second time, there is an asterisk in the bulletin, and size 6 font source attribution. The third through 10th times, an old friend once told me, and finally from eleven into eternity "so this one time, I was...".L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Sounds like if you don't do it my way you must be wrong. All of these people complaining about Mark have nothing to do with what he wrote. Just trying to use his notoriety to gain notoriety for themselves.
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A disobedient child always finds a parent.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
All of these people complaining about Mark have nothing to do with what he wrote. Just trying to use his notoriety to gain notoriety for themselves.
And you know this how? Sounds like an the uncharitable fallacy to me. Which is why on the forums we generally try to keep a positive tone, so that everyone feels welcome. Note: I know next to nothing about Driscoll.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I know this how, I have been following this story for over 6 months. Right after you challenge me you say we try to keep a positive tone, I'm not feeling your positive tone MJ. And you make an opinion about me and the story and you admit that you nothing about it.
But I think a Reformation Package would be a good idea!!
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Mathew - you mean something different than the "Reformed" base packages they currently offer?
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Books written in his name (with some unknown amount of contribution by Driscoll) are being flagged for "plagiarism", and by that I mean a sentence here or there as I understand it - sometimes re-worded.MJ. Smith said:Mathew Haferkamp said:All of these people complaining about Mark have nothing to do with what he wrote. Just trying to use his notoriety to gain notoriety for themselves.
And you know this how? Sounds like an the uncharitable fallacy to me. Which is why on the forums we generally try to keep a positive tone, so that everyone feels welcome. Note: I know next to nothing about Driscoll.
His books made him famous. The plagiarism has made him infamous. He issued an apology not for plagiarism, but for using the company that (he implies) plagiarized.
The backlash has been significant. His church seems to be standing by him.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Well I think he was a little famous before his books. Are the attacks really about plagiarism?? Maybe some of his strong opinions I believe have made him a subject of attack, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the funny thing is all the people he has "plagiarized" against aren't the ones complaining, it's the people with an axe to grind.
And yes I did mean the Reformed base packages.
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I do not know a thing about Driscoll. I am too old, I suspect to know him well. I do recall that when Catherine Marshall published the sermons of the late Peter Marshall there was controversy over things that he had "borrowed" from other preachers. Of course, Catherine was unaware of the problem when she published.
I do know this: I have never heard a preacher, no matter how famous or highly regarded, that did not borrow illustrations. Occasionally, that happens by coincidence - two people read the same book or were similarly impressed by some event. More often, it happens because they heard it in someone's sermon - who, by the way, heard it in someone else's sermon.
Using an illustration is, in my humble opinion, far different from using someone's ideas - taking their sermon and preaching it as your own, without giving credit. That is inexcusable. And you need to be aware of your own preaching style. Not every story can effectively be told by every preacher.
One thing that does bug me is when preachers tell a story as true without verifying the facts - like the sweet story of Alexander Fleming saving young Winston Churchill from drowning, Churchill's father paying for Fleming's medical school, and Churchill's life being saved by the penicillin that Fleming discovers. (Did not happen! Yet I hear it frequently. Always verify facts. Your listeners will.)
Of course, publishing has a somewhat higher standard than just preaching, but most Christian books have illustrations that I have heard or used before.
If someone tells me they do not borrow illustrations, I watch them closely, suspecting they might tell me another lie. And I certainly wouldn't listen to such a person preach.
All of which reminds me of the story - I borrowed this illustration - of the preacher who complained that Billy Graham stole one of his sermons. "Billy Graham must have read my sermon. He preached it practically word for word, and hundreds came forward to receive Christ." Someone asked him, "Really, what was the response when you preached it?". He replied, "Oh, not much. It was an ordinary Sunday, what can you expect?" The other man said, "Better let Billy have that sermon. He can do more with than you can."
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Well, this is where I'm just going to have to come down hard on Pastor Driskoll. His plaegerism matches the sudden appearance of 'theologians' in the late 2nd century. Tertullian,being the ringleader, with all the rumors of him living in Montana. Quoting writings from the 1st century without direct attribution. No mention of authors, chapters, verses. No credit for the manuscript copyists (maybe being merciful; hard to say).
Now compare to real Christian writers of the early 2nd century and of course the 1st century. Scholars are literally hunting everywhere for any hint of copying (some dastardly liberals suggesting the early writings weren't there to copy). In fact, the early writers were so virtuous, they destroyed their own manuscripts to prevent anyone later being accused of copying. Now that is true virtuousness.
Maybe an exception or two. Matthew, Mark, Luke. Again, hard to say.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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iMathew Haferkamp said:I'm not feeling your positive tone MJ. And you make an opinion about me and the story and you admit that you nothing about it.
I very carefully said nothing about you or about the story. I commented only on your post. What I intended to convey is that when we come out against resources available in Logos, we are implying a negative about the Logos users who love the resources. That is not appropriate in the forums because it makes those who love the resources feel unwelcome in some cases. That makes them less willing to come to the forums to learn to use Logos effectively - that's my really concern. Then again, I hate bad logic so when you claim to know others' motives ...[:^)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Disappearing now?
I lost interest in him a while ago, so perhaps this may be the right time to sell my license to his sermons.
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I think his comment was not about the Logos resource, but instead was about those detracting from the works of Driscoll. Thus casting a positive light on Driscoll and disparaging Driscolls detractors.MJ. Smith said:
iMathew Haferkamp said:I'm not feeling your positive tone MJ. And you make an opinion about me and the story and you admit that you nothing about it.
I very carefully said nothing about you or about the story. I commented only on your post. What I intended to convey is that when we come out against resources available in Logos, we are implying a negative about the Logos users who love the resources. That is not appropriate in the forums because it makes those who love the resources feel unwelcome in some cases. That makes them less willing to come to the forums to learn to use Logos effectively - that's my really concern. Then again, I hate bad logic so when you claim to know others' motives ...
His comment:Mathew Haferkamp said:Sounds like "if you don't do it my way you must be wrong". All of these people complaining about Mark have nothing to do with what he wrote. Just trying to use his notoriety to gain notoriety for themselves.
Quotes and emphasis mine.
EDIT:
Further - he was not the plagiarist. He and the board are accused of verbally mistreating members. But there has been some remediation and fences are being mended. His church is standing by him in restoration.
Which means I have no idea why he's removing his digital preaching "footprint".L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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LOL Mark Driscoll on sermon preparation: "Many people have asked questions about my methods for preaching and sermon preparation. So I thought I’d share my methods, which are unorthodox and not something I’d suggest copying." Also, "When I get up to preach, the jokes, illustrations, cross-references, and closing happen extemporaneously. I never teach others how to preach, as my method is not exactly a replicable method—nor a suggested one. But it works for me."
Interesting how he says his method is not something he suggests copying. Ironic, isn't it? Reminds me about the controversy of Logos not citing the correct publishers and/or authors in some of the resources they publish; e.g. The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge in English has the right authors, but the version in Spanish doesn't. It only has one and is not the original one. Even in English there were some resources that did not give the right author. I think someone started a thread on that. Maybe is a common practice in the state of Washington...LOL...just kidding! [A]
Anyway, hope Mark Driscoll can work out a way to have his sermons back on sale. Maybe he'll have to share profits or something.
DAL
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abondservant said:
Which means I have no idea why he's removing his digital preaching "footprint".
I doubt it's him removing his sermons, and I doubt it has anything to do with the plagiarism thing. It's probably his new accountability team at his church. Having accountability from anyone is a new thing for him. Driscoll has built up his celebrity reputation through his hotheaded "angry young prophet" style, which comes across in his sermons. It is that grating style, and more important his abusive leadership style which accompanies it (no questions allowed or you get fired, excommunicated, branded a heretic, etc.) which has gotten him into all this hot water. He has repented from that phase of his life and is committing to turning over a new leaf, and says he wants to give up being a celebrity in order to be a better pastor. It's probably embarrassing to the other pastors and elders of the church as it goes through this transition to have the old Mark Driscoll style being still disseminated on their website as representing who he is, so I'm guessing they are the ones that took them down. They are probably exercising their pastoral care of him too, which is a new responsibility for them. He said in his apology letter that it's been a long time since he's had a pastor. He needs prayer and discipleship more than anyone else in his church right now. Praying for him that he emerges from this painful episode in his life a much better person and pastor and father/husband and friend. Sometimes it does take a big embarrassing downfall in order to become teachable again and start back on the path of growth in Christlikeness. I've been following him from a bit of a distance for quite some time, and I predicted that he was heading for something one of these days. I didn't quite know what it would be -- a sexual scandal (such as the one that hit Ted Haggard), or a financial scandal, or something. But you cannot carry on with the level of arrogance and judgmentalism and insensitivity to others' pain that he had without God pulling the reins eventually. Also hoping and praying for reconciliation where the damage has been done. And praying that those who see this comeuppance happening to Driscoll, even those who predicted it and might have secretly wished for it, will not revel in it but rather will be weeping for him and his church. May it turn into a beacon of hope and healing for many.
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Thanks Rosie- it for those very reasons- I did not even look at his product- nor do I recommend any Christian to listen to this - I'll say it "quack"- there are to many biblically sound pastors to get our exhortation and guidance from.
So before the pious “oh who are you…” voices get started- I’m a believer who has been instructed by Scripture itself to examine the fruit of those who claim to be teachers.
Glad to see its gone.
By the way even though I referenced Rosie's comments I in no way say she is agreeing with my conclusions or statements.
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Well said!Rosie Perera said:abondservant said:Which means I have no idea why he's removing his digital preaching "footprint".
hoping and praying for reconciliation where the damage has been done. And praying that those who see this comeuppance happening to Driscoll, even those who predicted it and might have secretly wished for it, will not revel in it but rather will be weeping for him and his church. May it turn into a beacon of hope and healing for many.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Sung to the tune of "Come Thou Fount"
Come thou fount of every resource
I am out of things to say
Streams of wisdom at my fingers
What a gift to copy-paste!
While it's true that I'm no Spurgeon
My church thinks that I'm on top
I may copy vintage sermons –
It's not wrong if you're not caught
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Not a Driscoll-ite but just remember the criticisms raining down off people's noses are modern ones; earlier Christian leaders routinely re-packaged, giving scholars much delight in tracing 'who'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Gregory Lawhorn said:
Sung to the tune of "Come Thou Fount"
Come thou fount of every resource
I am out of things to say
Streams of wisdom at my fingers
What a gift to copy-paste!
While it's true that I'm no Spurgeon
My church thinks that I'm on top
I may copy vintage sermons –
It's not wrong if you're not caught
[:)] Clever. Thanks.
[clears throat] Is that original? [cough, cough]
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Well, Wyeth and Robinson did their part. But the hacked revised lyric is mine. Feel free to add it to your church's hymnody!
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Gregory Lawhorn said:
Well, Wyeth and Robinson did their part. But the hacked revised lyric is mine. Feel free to add it to your church's hymnody!
If I do, I'll be sure to give proper attribution. [;)]
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Way to bash the Pastor. We need to show him grace and mercy, not bash him.
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Michael Childs said:
All of which reminds me of the story - I borrowed this illustration - of the preacher who complained that Billy Graham stole one of his sermons. "Billy Graham must have read my sermon. He preached it practically word for word, and hundreds came forward to receive Christ." Someone asked him, "Really, what was the response when you preached it?". He replied, "Oh, not much. It was an ordinary Sunday, what can you expect?" The other man said, "Better let Billy have that sermon. He can do more with than you can."
I don't know where you got that, but I really enjoyed it.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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@ abondservant
"Her", not "him." We don't transgender persons here [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Janice said:
Way to bash the Pastor. We need to show him grace and mercy, not bash him.
Don't you know that the usual Sunday dinner is roast Domine?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Yes.
I may not agree with everything that he says and how he says it but I have appreciated listening to dozens of his sermons over the years.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bruce Dunning said:
Agreed these forums are for discussing Logos Bible Software and not pulling down the body of Christ. I believe the original question about what has happened to his material that was available in Logos has been answered.
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
I believe the original question about what has happened to his material that was available in Logos has been answered.
As the OP ... I agree ... answered in full ... no further response required ! [:D]
Let us just remember Mark, his family and his community in our prayers.
2017 15" MBP, iPad Pro
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I don't know Mark Driscoll or this controversy, but I would just like to make a couple of general points from my own experience.
Over many years of preaching and leading Bible Studies (I preached my first sermon in 1974) I have probably consulted many hundreds of commentaries, read several thousand books, listened to many sermon and been exposed to squillions of soundbites. (I first heard squillion being used by Scots comedian Billy Connolly over thirty years ago in his act, but he didn't attribute it at the time – to have done so would have spoiled the oral flow of the moment. Just like this written aside has done.)
Consequently, many phrases/words/clauses must have got so mashed up in what passes for a mind (mine) so that I have little idea where they came from. What is originality in such a situation? Speech by its very nature is ephemeral. Have I ever used someone else's original thought without attributing it? I could not honestly answer that positively or negatively. But I must have used other people's catchphrases, current slang, phraseology from time to time without being consciously aware of it.
Now in writing that is a different matter. In academic writing I am scrupulous about attribution/quotation/citation, but I put it in footnotes/endnotes so that the reader can ignore it if he/she wishes. Even so there is no guarantee that I will never use a phrase/word/clause, locked in my memory banks from many years ago, while I was an undergraduate, listening to lecturers/seminars/tutorials/conversations.
"No man is an island." (John Donne) That is particularly true when it comes to communication, both oral and written.
Every blessing
Alan
iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8
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I am interested!
PCA Church
L4 Platinum, L5 Reformed Platinum, L6 Reformed Diamond, Reformed Studies XL, Platinum, Logos Now0 -
I purchased the Driscoll sermon library when I first purchased logos, and I'm glad I did. I have used it very much in my studies and have learned a great deal and been entertained at the same time. I do not agree with everything he says, but he makes the Word come alive, makes it practical, and is quite funny. They do not edit his sermons, it's pretty word for word. I hope logos will put them back on for others to be blessed by.
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Martin Folley said:Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
I believe the original question about what has happened to his material that was available in Logos has been answered.
As the OP ... I agree ... answered in full ... no further response required !
Let us just remember Mark, his family and his community in our prayers.
I agree with the OP.
Chelsea FC- Today is a good day!
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