Important Feature - Internet

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This post has 43 Replies | 9 Followers

Posts 59
Charles C.G. Miller | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Oct 28 2014 11:22 PM

One of the most important features of Logos is that you do not need to be connected to the internet to make it work. So many technology people tell me that the Internet is available everywhere. Come visit my 1000 member church. There is no internet or cell phone coverage in many places in the church including the library and the adult Sunday school wing. Come on vacation with me in the mountains of NC.

I approve of Internet access for updates and back-up but not for regular use.  I am "scared to death" that Logos will become a tablet application residing in the cloud.

Ministry happens where we are, not where the Internet is.  

Posts 367
Stephen Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 11:27 PM

Cousin Charlie,

Yes!!

I use L5 (will be L6 soon) at a remote location I access each week by bike. No internet.

The laptop only feels the warm buzz of the net when it comes to the city for holidays.

Stephen Miller

Sydney, Australia

Posts 33245
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 11:32 PM

I agree that Logos should not require the internet but at the same time I'd hate to have features omitted solely because they require internet. The key is in keeping a balance.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 19273
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 28 2014 11:47 PM

Charles C.G. Miller:
Ministry happens where we are, not where the Internet is.

Great quote!

Yes, I too worry about the creep towards more and more internet-dependent features. I am guessing that some of these could be implemented in such a way that doesn't require the internet, though I suspect others could not (without downloading gobs of data to all our of PCs for the few people that might use the feature). For example, the "Visual Copy" feature requires internet connectivity. That is because it needs access to a large library of visual art. There would be no point in downloading all of that visual art to millions of computers for the percentage of users who would use that feature (people who need to do presentations and who want to make some of their slides out of Bible verses and other quotes they find in their Logos Library). The workaround in the case of that feature is to buy a professional presentation package such as PowerPoint and make your own slides that way (not Logos's Proclaim, because it also requires internet use).

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 4:57 AM

Is there even a list of such features? I didn't realize visual copy (not that I really intend to use it anyway) was specifically tied to the Internet. But I'm going to be really upset when I'm in some locale without solid internet access (Greenland, for instance), and Logos won't work. This all ties back to Bob's conviction that the cloud is the future -- and my conviction that the cloud will eventually be cut down to size in real terms, once people realize the privacy and other things they're giving up.

Russ

Posts 2347
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 5:25 AM

Much of my work is in non-internet accessible areas. So far this not problem, but if we slide a lot farther....

Having functions that access the internet is probably fine. Just be sure the primary functions always work offline.  I'd hate to think how much I have invested if that should change.  I trust it won't.    

Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 5:38 AM

Charles C.G. Miller:
Come on vacation with me in the mountains of NC.

Ready when you are!!! Stick out tongue

We recently relocated to a church within the town we live that did not have great cell reception for my phone carrier.  While I still use the iPhone app on occassion, i now rely much more heavily on my paper Bible and have adopted an "I'll note that and look it up when I get home" approach.

...more recently I've discovered the "Guest" wi-fi... Big Smile

Posts 391
Geo Philips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 5:48 AM

Gao Lu:

Just be sure the primary functions always work offline.  I'd hate to think how much I have invested if that should change.  I trust it won't.    

I think this will be the key going forward. Logos should have primary functions (like reading, searching, notetaking etc.) that will work offline all the time.

But the concept of the 'cloud-connected' application is not going away. In fact, in many developing countries in Asia and Africa, the deployment of the Internet is overtaking a) the rise in income levels b) the availability of high-powered computers to run complex applications like Logos and Photoshop offline.

Imagine the potential for a missionary in India to access the full power of Logos on a cheap Chromebook, and for Bible Schools in those places to hand cheap tablets and laptops out to students.

The cloud has issues granted, but these issues are not new. In fact, the Internet might be bringing things to the surface that have always been there.

1) Privacy - This is the major issue today but now there is a conversation around it and surveillance. There was news today that the US Postal Service has been scanning mail in volumes never thought of before.

2) Security - There will never be 100% protection against malicious actors but things will get better. The biggest barrier to security is convenience. For example, I work in the payments industry and it is astounding to me that the US still uses so many checks (prone to fraud on an epic scale) and non-pin credit cards. The recent hacking scares have accelerated movement away from these.

Similarly, we need to get away from the password too and there is a lot of potential developments in this space.

Long story short, I hope Logos continues to be a successful product for years to come, and given recent trends, some movement toward the cloud is inevitable (in my humble opinion.)

Posts 59
Charles C.G. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 11:45 AM

Thank you all for the support and confidence you have provided to me on this issue. Your comments on balance between local features and features that need Internet access are reasonable. It is my hope that when the Internet is integrated into the design of the feature, the results of that feature could be saved and accessed off line.  In Excel, when I include an external spreadsheet in a calculation and that external information is not available to the spreadsheet, the spreadsheet continues to work but cannot update that number so it assumes that it has not changed.  I hope that if the feature is a graphic database, that information could be selected on line and used off line.  I hope that a search like feature powered by on line information would allow the results to be saved and the saved search viewed and used to access resources off line.

Posts 667
Jonathan Pitts | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 11:48 AM

But, what about an optional server-based version of Logos.

Imagine ...

— no massive downloads

— no hours of indexing

— the full Logos 6 experience on a tablet

Posts 59
Charles C.G. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 11:52 AM

A list of features that require the internet would be a good thing to have. Another useful thing would be to have those features color coded or pinked-out when there is no Internet connection.

Posts 59
Charles C.G. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 11:56 AM

Jonathan Pitts:

But, what about an optional server-based version of Logos.

Imagine ...

— no massive downloads

— no hours of indexing

— the full Logos 6 experience on a tablet


If we can support both versions I would agree.  Some will say you just described Google but I would not agree with that assessment.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 12:09 PM

I agree with Jonathan.  And Charles.  A sizable portion of our travels is internet-free.  But as a result, we mainly use cellular with its download limitations. 

And so, the mobile form of Logos works great.  Pick and choose what is needed; don't need the whole caboodle.   And even better, no major L4/L5/L6 stuff.

Overall, I'd think the key is for Logos to be up-front on what is internet-driven vs not. People can then value the value. But judging from Proclaim and Faithlife,  Logos' heart in on the internet.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9519
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 12:16 PM

Charles C.G. Miller:
A list of features that require the internet would be a good thing to have

Here it is:

  • Atlas
  • Community Tags
  • Visual Copy
  • Ask the Author
  • Groups
  • Wikipedia
  • Books.logos.com search
  • Online Manuscripts
  • Logos Media Library
  • Online media
  • Home Page Blogs

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 150
LogosEmployee
Todd White (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 2:07 PM

This is a great discussion and a great reminder that not everyone has internet access all the time. We try to strike a balance with features that require internet and those that don't and in some cases the feature will not work offline initially but has the capability of working offline.

Here are some of my thoughts on the features listed by Mark. 

Atlas - The new maps are quickly approaching terabytes of data. It would not be practical (or desired) to download that content to every users machine. However, we do cache the metadata for every map the user owns and the recently viewed zoom levels (we call them tiles) to the users computer. If you go offline passage guide and other features will tell you that you have a map, but you may not be able to load the map if you haven't viewed it recently. We even evaluated a few options of pre-downloading some of the maps so users would have a good out of the box offline experience, but decided to wait and see if that will be needed based on user feedback.

Community Tags - The nature of this data is online and would also be very large to download. We also had the difficulty deciding if we downloaded it how often would people want it downloaded. Some people may not like this feature and would we need to add a way for those people to turn it off completely? We landed on leaving this one as online only.

Visual Copy - This feature takes advantage of online templates that don't have to be stored on the application as well as the technology of Proclaim to render slides. We didn't want to completely integrate Proclaim into the application and didn't want to require users to have Proclaim installed to use it. As we gauge the popularity of this feature all of the decisions may be revisited.

Ask the Author - The nature of this feature is online only. We could possibly queue up your question offline, but the complexity was enough that we didn't even consider offline support.

Groups - Very similar to Ask the Author.

Wikipedia - After you view a Wikipedia article the article should be viewable offline.

Books.logos.com search - You can download and integrate books into Library search for offline use.

Online Manuscripts - This isn't our content so it will only work online.

Logos Media Library - There are a large number of images provided by this library. Storing all of the images, videos, handouts, etc. on your computer in the possibility you might use them someday would be a tough sell.

Online media - This is media on external sites so it makes sense to keep online only.

Home Page Blogs - Home page works offline, but you need to be online to get the blogs. I think this is the right balance.

Overall I think we made reasonable decisions when striking a balance for each feature online and offline; however, we may have missed the mark somewhere. Your feedback on the features that we missed the mark on is invaluable, so please keep the feedback coming.

Posts 297
JC54 | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 2:14 PM

Todd White (Faithlife):
Online Manuscripts - This isn't our content so it will only work offline.

Now this is an unexpected statement. I assume you meant to say "online" .

Posts 150
LogosEmployee
Todd White (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 29 2014 2:17 PM

Johannes Hendrik Menkveld:

Todd White (Faithlife):
Online Manuscripts - This isn't our content so it will only work offline.

Now this is an unexpected statement. I assume you meant to say "online" .

Indeed. Corrected. :)

Posts 59
Charles C.G. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 30 2014 7:37 AM

Thank you for this information it is a great help. It is logical and well explained that some features need to be connected to the Internet to work for valid reasons that you provide.

If I may, I would also like to point out that it emphasizes the problem I want to avoid.  Your information is technically rich and valuable but it fails to touch the needs of the user (me). Because I am not a Logos 6 user yet, I cannot give your real life examples.  Please allow me to speak conceptually about the solution to my issue.

In your description of the Atlas feature you make the Internet access a valuable feature I would want. However, You say, "If you go offline [the] passage guide and other features will tell you that you have a map, but you may not be able to load the map if you haven't viewed it recently." This makes me think that the information might be stored in a cache for some undefined period of time. Now imagine that you are creating a series of lessons for a Bible study to be held over the next two months. I would like to save that map for viewing during the Bible Study even if I lose the ability to manipulate it. I would rather see it inside Logos than use PowerPoint.

Features like Wikipedia, online media, and online manuscripts fall into this category of features that I would like to see (but not search) while offline.

Moving on to an imaginary feature for an example of the functionality I suggest.  If I performed a search of my resources (maybe a Passage Guide search) that involved or included some online computation, I would like to store the results of that search and be able to recall those results. I would like to be able to chose my resources in the search results and bring them to the screen to read or share. Perhaps any "unavailable" resources could be grayed-out.

Also, menu choices that require Internet connectivity could be grayed-out or "pinked-out" so we would know why the feature is unavailable.

I hope that this clarifies my concern that wherever possible Logos information be made available for display and use (to the extent possible) while not connected to the Internet based on the concept of leading a group Bible study while offline after doing the preparation online.

Posts 23
Ragnheðin Ryggstein | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 30 2014 11:45 AM

Hi, Todd

My name is Ragnheðin and I have been a Logos user for a year or so

Since I am in merchant marine, and can’t be online all the time (need Logos to work offline) I get a bit worry about what is happening, that some features in Logos 6, need an online connection to work.

I have a lot of money invested in Logos, and a lot of pre pup order coming my way.

Can you pls. promise me, that I can use Logos software, regardless of the number 5,6,7, etc. offline in the future, and that you won’t go to a cloud based software, and I don't have to bail out?

Sincerely

Ragnheðin Ryggstein

Posts 9146
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 30 2014 11:52 AM

Ragnheðin Ryggstein:
Can you pls. promise me, that I can use Logos software, regardless of the number 5,6,7, etc. offline in the future, and that you won’t go to a cloud based software, and I don't have to bail out?

Sorry, but we can't promise anything about future versions of the software. (Mostly because we can't predict the future.)

However, the offline features of Logos 6 will keep working with your current library as long as you as you want to run it. (You may have to run Logos 6 in a Windows 8.1 VM if future versions of Windows are not compatible with Logos 6, or if Microsoft goes bankrupt, or if Linux takes over the desktop, or ...)

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