Concern about future upgrades

Every time Logos releases a major update and introduces new base-packages, after a few months they release the free core engine. You don't need a backup. You can keep using L5, or You can update (not upgrade) to the free L6 core engine in February 2015 or at a later point in time. This will repeat a few months after L7 comes out, and so on. Thereby new computer hardware and operative systems remain supported. If You need to use an old operative system, You may download an older version of Logos.

Todd Hinton said:

Good question Steve.  You might also ask what those free future upgrades for life get you?  It is surely not the latest program features.

Todd

Actually, not quite true. You get some new features, depending on whether a feature requires a new dataset, and bug fixes.  Here are the three approaches:

Upgrade to a new base package - you get new features that don't require new datasets, new features based on new datasets (think of datasets as tagging and additional data tied to or adding/enhancing resources), and new resources/books.

Crossgrade - you get the new features that don't require new datasets, new features based on datasets, but no new resources. Currently there are two variations of crossgrades, one a little cheaper with less datasets added, the other with all the datsdts for just a little more money.

Free engine - new features that don't require datasets, no datasets, no new resources. This also, as do all three strateges, ensure that your software continues to be supported with bug fixes, etc.

You can review a list of the features datasets on this page.

So there are three choices, one being free. In addition, you can turn off any and all internet updating of program and resources, so no syncing is done (which is fine if you back up your own computer and don't need to sync your work to another computer), and then run the program and resources you have until the operating system won't support the program any more - and maybe then a virtual machine can be installed on your computer (Windows and Mac both support this with additional cost programs) to run your older Logos on a version of the older OS. That is, assuming you upgraded the older OS - you can just not upgrade anything on your computer and other than support/bug fixes/security patches you don't miss anything.

So it seems all the choices are covered, no? Do nothing - zero cost maintain support and some improvements - get all the features no new books - various choices of upgrade to new features and resources. 

Steve, to your specific questions:

- Does anyone else share your concern?  Yes.   These type questions tend to show up with each major update.  But forum OPs are typically not interested in 'death of a salesman'.  However, according to Logos, the bulk of Logos purchasers are single-time, and I'd assume at some point, simply let their software die (similar to what I'm doing with OliveTree).  The issue is for those who have a large investment.   Basically you're on your own, absent questions to Dave in Australia.

- Is there a way you can backup a copy of the installation program for me to load onto another computer.  Yes, there is, thanks to the afore mentioned Dave of Australia: method 1 of https://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers 

- Does anyone know if there is a way for you to keep your status quo perpetually?  Above, Don sort of hints at it, but the answer is 'no'.  As he mentions, it's possible to operate in a virtual box but the system has to match your backup (mentioned above).  If it doesn't or someone upgrades the virtual box, you're out of luck.  Realistically you're better off, simply assigning a PC to your Logos and cutting the internet to the PC (to avoid ALL updates).

The above is basically how I operate Libronix, for the same issues you mention.  I have a dedicated PC in the music room which runs Libronix and also all the older synths (completely offline). And I have a virtual box on my W7 that similarly runs Libronix (the virtual box being offline).   I'm reluctant to do the same with the L4-6 series, primarily due to the layering.  Age wise, I figure I'm off heavy Bible study before that issue arrives.  Stick with my iPad at that point.

Anything in technology will push you to update, I mean anything. Otherwise it would be a dead company 

As time goes on I am disturbed by the direction of Logos. It goes more and more into the cloud. Major features of 6,  like the Atlas, require an active connection tot he internet to use. I do not think Logos is going anywhere anytime soon. But lots of us have much invested into our Library's and I have always taken solace in the fact I could create a VM of OS and run Logos to maintain my Library on my computer. But in situation where Logos servers are required to use resources we own (yes it is technically licenses), having a VM is about as useful as having a rotary phone.

-Dan 

Denise said:

Don, 'yes' is not entirely correct to 'status quo'. 

We can argue semantics of words until we are blue in the face. I still maintain Logos offers every choice from doing nothing to upgrades of features and resources, that's all. Logos 6 will run a lot longer if you choose, in current revision, than Windows 7, Photoshop, Evernote, Gmail, IE, Quicken, Turbo Tax, or just about any other piece of software in its current revision, and certainly no worse. 

Dan Francis said:

Major features of 6,  like the Atlas, require an active connection tot he internet to use. (...) I have always taken solace in the fact I could create a VM of OS and run Logos to maintain my Library on my computer. But in situation where Logos servers are required to use resources we own (yes it is technically licenses), having a VM is about as useful as having a rotary phone.

The maps are too big for our HD's/SSD's. Would you prefer not to have them at all? Because that's the alternative.

Unix, just dissable the internet and you won't have them [:P]

I am not too worried about the atlas or the scanned books for that matter.  But i also hope our basic resources and majority of functionality will be at least downloaded to our computer for offline usage. If Logos 7 offers online storage so you need not take up space on your computer I would not be terribly happy with that thought even though that is basically already the way our mobile apps work. To the best of my knowledge the only resources I am lacking on my mobile devices are the Jerome Biblical Commentary and Oxford Bible Commentary (I would guess there are also new 6 resources not yet accessible on mobile ). 

-Dan

I fully agree with Patrick S.! The ones that are left behind the development are individuals who don't pay any attention to CPU benchmarks when they buy hardware:

Patrick S. said:

Don't agree.

There may be people/companies who want you to believe that unless everything goes 'up to the cloud' (up in smoke?) you will be a second class technology citizen, but they have a reason wanting you to believe that — because they have a vested interested in locking you into their platform. And what better way to lock you in then making you totally dependent on their online platform which they totally control.

Sure there can be benefits in being able to use the 'cloud' (and just what does the 'cloud' mean anyway separate from its marketing term) to transfer/share/replicate data — but as to saying that an application will not function at all without a 'cloud' connection is just (marketing) hype driven by commercial / governmental interests: Wild Eagle said:

Dan, everything in technology progressing toward cloud. Those programs which don't go to that direction will be left behind

Wild Eagle said:

Patrick, I understand your concern. You don't want to be dependable on a company or "corporation". But from my perspective, we get phones, tablets, home computers, office computers and etc... Without cloud, I can't imagine a possible way to move forward with some large data libraries. I am for physical backups, but at the same time, I want to have everything in cloud as well. I can't prefer one over the other one. Both have advantages and disadvantages 

PS: concerning the Atlas, if the feature is in terabytes then I would prefer it to have on cloud instead of not having it at all.  

No-one is saying that having data on some networked storage medium (what marketing hype calls 'the cloud') is intrinsically bad. The issue, particularly with some 'cloud' services/platforms, is who do you 'surrender' your data to, and how much control do you let them have over you. And, more importantly, what motivation is at the heart of these entities. For example we have situations like with Amazon where a book title that people had purchased - that is, paid money for - was, unilaterally and without notice, removed from Amazon customers' private and personal devices. Think about that... if things that people seem to be resigned to accepting in the digital world happened in the real (physical) world there would be a total outcry.

If Amazon, in the form of a person, broke into peoples' homes and took back physical books that people had paid for what do you think would happen? Well in some US states they'd be gunned down where they stood — and the law and public opinion would pat the home owner on the back.

As someone who is not an American citizen, given the recently exposed blatant arrogance of the US government believing it has the right to steal data of non-US citizens, do you think I should blindly trust my data to some 'cloud' coming under the ultimate jurisdiction of the US any government?

Denise said:

I'm just waiting for Logos to 'Facebook' the Logos.com site.  Outside of Google mail (which is hopelessly out of control), Logos is the only bad-boy I deal with (forced cloud usage).   Just this week, Accordance kindly asked which of my books I might wish to download (returning to the point of the thread).

Denise, you seem so unhappy, so negative, so anti- the direction of Logos/Faithlife, I am curious, why are you still here? Don't you think you might be more happy not immersing yourself in something that gives you such unhappiness on a daily basis? I can't imagine writing so many negative posts and feeling happy through the process - it's like you have devoted your online life to criticism and diatribe of Faithlife. Does it bring you joy? Gosh I wish you could find a way to be happy, I don't think it is here.

Don, you seem especially naive.  If you read my posts, I'm quite happy with my Libronix and indeed Logos. And I'm probably the poster-girl for Bob's intent of a user self-educating themselves.  My subjects bounce around and I'm a kid in a candy store.  I'd be willing to bet (real money), I read more books per-capita from Logos than most.  And unlike most, whenever I find an unusual subject that's not likely to be popular, I mention it to other self-educators.

But you're correct regarding Logos the company.  When it comes to a company that locks me in on how I roam my self-education, happy I am not.  Forced downloads right off the bat.  I've whined about that from late October 2009.  And I'll likely keep whining.

I know, I know.  It's uncomfortable for you.  It's uncomfortable for most Logosians, when Logos is not held in highest esteem.  For some reason, the company is very similar to a religion or a political party.  And the answer to questioners for both, is the suggestion you made.

I am approaching "older," but not afraid of NOW.  The cloud works.  There are things I like and don't like about it.  Logos will adapt as technology changes and I am glad for that.  That may mean more or less cloud.  Possibly technology will soon allow USB 4.0 thumbdrives with petabyte, exabyte, zettabyte or yottabyte (PB, EB, ZB, YB) capability.  Then we can have atlases to our heart's content on our thumb. Or maybe someday the internet will get so fast that the Logos atlases will actually work.   I can just imagine worldwide wireless internet with 10G service with 10 YB download speeds.    We will give up all freedom and privacy to get that of course, but by then our consciences will allow it and we will "understand it is for our own good."  

Wow.  I really went off didn't I!  

Summary: At my age I am not going to try to overly-preserve the past or lock in on some antique technology and hunker there till I die.  Let's lay up our treasure in Heaven, and if everything here burns...oh well.  Meanwhile, I love Logos!  

Denise said:

Don, you seem especially naive.  If you read my posts, I'm quite happy with my Libronix and indeed Logos. And I'm probably the poster-girl for Bob's intent of a user self-educating themselves.  My subjects bounce around and I'm a kid in a candy store.  I'd be willing to bet (real money), I read more books per-capita from Logos than most.  And unlike most, whenever I find an unusual subject that's not likely to be popular, I mention it to other self-educators.

But you're correct regarding Logos the company.  When it comes to a company that locks me in on how I roam my self-education, happy I am not.  Forced downloads right off the bat.  I've whined about that from late October 2009.  And I'll likely keep whining.

I know, I know.  It's uncomfortable for you.  It's uncomfortable for most Logosians, when Logos is not held in highest esteem.  For some reason, the company is very similar to a religion or a political party.  And the answer to questioners for both, is the suggestion you made.

With Logos is getting to be the only game in town for bible or bible library software what are we suppose to do?  Increasingly this company owns much of the market, although I don't know details, and they can pretty much do whatever they wish to customers however they wish to do it.  We can't trust the govt. but we can trust Logos to take care of us...often a cry I hear from people of a certain faith perspective.  I get the willies just loading this software onto my hard drive, cloud based or not, but what alternatives are there for this kind of software in the market that are any more solid and reliable?

I for one agree with what Rene and Denise have said. Logos is the only application I use that by default uses the cloud. I have intentionally steered away from that with other software. For many things, I do bring some slight "inconveniences" upon myself because of this, but to me that is something I'll put up with in trade for some peace of mind concerning privacy. However, as a bi-lingual missionary, I don't see myself switching to any of the competing software any time soon. Why? I have yet to find any other BIble study software with as many resources in both english and spanish. When Accordance starts producing dictionaries, commentaries, etc. in spanish, I may give it a try.

Patrick S. said:

For example we have situations like with Amazon where a book title that people had purchased - that is, paid money for - was, unilaterally and without notice, removed from Amazon customers' private and personal devices.

I remember that incident though I wasn't directly affected by it.  I contacted Amazon at the time and found that whoever uploaded the resource to Amazon Kindle did not have the right to do so.  I understand that those affected were compensated.  I hardly think any such thing is likely to occur with Logos.